Privacy Whistleblower Edward Snowden and EFF Slam Apple's Plans to Scan Messages and iCloud Images

[baypharm]

This deserves a re-post :

Things are different now.
(not for me,if they really do this,no more iPhones for me after 12 years simple as that)

Yes. Apple has lied to us. They have betrayed our trust

 

[baypharm]

It is limited to iCloud photos . It’s not hard to understand . If you turn off iCloud this won’t occur. Do you want to read that slowly to understand ?

No it’s not. They are going to scan iMessages for sexual talk

 

[baypharm]

Regarding CSAM... if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.

Uh huh. Tell this to the thousands of poor souls who have been convicted of crimes they never committed

 

[usagora]

If you put it that way, it doesn't sound as bad.

What I'm concerned about is that this is crossing one red line: your phone generates data that can be used against you.

If you upload ChildP to iCloud, knowing that it's not encrypted, you're incriminating yourself. But with what apple is proposing (and apparently pulling off) is that the phone itself is incriminating you. This is a whole new level of creepy, out of a dystopian Sci-Fi novel.

A feature like this on your computer, you could manipulate to only push empty or default hashes or you could check against the reference database and if there's a collision, randomize. But on a closed platform like iOS you cannot so you depend on the goodwill of Apple to keep you and your data secure.

What's happening here is depriving the user of their rights to inspect or consent to the data that is transmitted. This is against the very "data transparency" thing apple is advocating. There's no opt-out, except not using iCloud photos (which I don't, for other reasons).

The only purpose of this metadata is to incriminate you. Why would anyone ever want that data sent if the only purpose is to incriminate you? Any reasonable person would opt out of they could, even if they have "nothing to hide" because it serves no other purpose. This is different from uploading the picture itself, because the purpose of uploading the picture is...for the picture to be accessible through the cloud.

I appreciate that Apple is trying to do this in a way (according to their whitepapers) that they cannot access the pictures unless a user's phone sent suspicious metadata (and the decryption keys with that, in a way). But I still think, this is the box of Pandora.

Why the hell would they let you opt out of this scanning process? This is an issue of illegal images, not diagnostic data. Are you really expecting them to effectively say, "If you'd like to be able to get away scot free with uploading child porn images to our servers, click here to opt out" 🤦‍♂️

No data from this scan is being sent to Apple unless you CHOOSE to do so by uploading the files to iCloud AND you've had a certain number of images identified as CSAM. So basically, for everyone except people who are trying to distribute child porn, Apple never sees any scanning data from your phone. Well, everyone except that less than 1 in a trillion person (and even then the review process would easily resolve that and nothing would happen).

 

[mazz0]

How do you know this won't be there?

Because they’ve posted a whole article about it and there’s no mention of such a dialogue. If they add one then great. My opinion is based on the solution they’ve announced, not some hypothetical future decision they could make.

And even if it's not, it's people's own responsibility to read the TOS.

You can’t be serious. Even the law has acknowledged that information buried away in T&Cs that nobody can seriously be expected to read doesn't constitute informed consent.

And the files a user uploads to iCloud were already being scanned anyway

That’s news to me and, I suspect most people. In fact my understanding was the photos were encrypted in iCloud and Apple didn’t have the key. Do you have a source for this information?

 

[cwosigns]

Because they’ve posted a whole article about it and there’s no mention of such a dialogue. If they add one then great. My opinion is based on the solution they’ve announced, not some hypothetical future decision they could make.


You can’t be serious. Even the law has acknowledged that information buried away in T&Cs that nobody can seriously be expected to read doesn't constitute informed consent.


That’s news to me and, I suspect most people. In fact my understanding was the photos were encrypted in iCloud and Apple didn’t have the key. Do you have a source for this information?

Take a look at Daring Fireball. They have a great article that breaks it down.

 

[usagora]

Because they’ve posted a whole article about it and there’s no mention of such a dialogue. If they add one then great. My opinion is based on the solution they’ve announced, not some hypothetical future decision they could make.


You can’t be serious. Even the law has acknowledged that information buried away in T&Cs that nobody can seriously be expected to read doesn't constitute informed consent.


That’s news to me and, I suspect most people. In fact my understanding was the photos were encrypted in iCloud and Apple didn’t have the key. Do you have a source for this information?

Again, no info is being sent to Apple unless you upload a certain number of illegal images to iCloud. And EVERYONE can be "seriously expected to read" things they click agree to. I mean, what would be the point of having TOS if it doesn't hold up in a court of law?

Apple most definitely has the key for files on iCloud:

E. Access to Your Account and Content

Apple reserves the right to take steps Apple believes are reasonably necessary or appropriate to enforce and/or verify compliance with any part of this Agreement. You acknowledge and agree that Apple may, without liability to you, access, use, preserve and/or disclose your Account information and Content to law enforcement authorities, government officials, and/or a third party, as Apple believes is reasonably necessary or appropriate, if legally required to do so or if Apple has a good faith belief that such access, use, disclosure, or preservation is reasonably necessary to: (a) comply with legal process or request; (b) enforce this Agreement, including investigation of any potential violation thereof; (c) detect, prevent or otherwise address security, fraud or technical issues; or (d) protect the rights, property or safety of Apple, its users, a third party, or the public as required or permitted by law.

 

[Act3]

So all it takes now to land someone in jail is for a pedo to Airdrop (with his iCloud Photos turned off) you some child porn while you're in a crowded area. Great. Some people are just so naïve as to think hash technology can't be used against innocent people.

Even if you end up proven innocent, it could really mess up your life. Your entire photo library probably has to be submitted to law enforcement for review. Your emails. Your message history. Just because someone airdropped you some child porn while you're attending a football game.

Probably cost a good portion of your life savings too on a good lawyer to prove your innocence. They could also come search your entire house with a reasonable cause warrant. Probably seize all your electronics for more searching.


But don’t you have to click accept to receive air drop? I have mine setup that only contacts can send me stuff.

 

[lysingur]

Probably cost a good portion of your life savings too on a good lawyer to prove your innocence. They could also come search your entire house with a reasonable cause warrant. Probably seize all your electronics for more searching.


But don’t you have to click accept to receive air drop? I have mine setup that only contacts can send me stuff.

1. A lot of people, probably even most, can't be bothered to change AirDrop settings back and forth. Once they switch it to "everyone," they don't want to switch it back.
2. The pedo can attempt to share multiple photos by hiding child porn in them. The preview only shows the first photo.

I'm sure there are other ways to abuse Airdrop and it'll probably take a few well-publicized cases before people start taking notice.

 

[macduke]

Yeah, this is some ********.

 

[Scoob Redux]

Hey, nobody is for child porn… but I’m with Snowden on this. Very slippery slope here. And it goes against everything Apple has stood for concerning privacy.

I wouldn't say a slippery slope, I'd say Apple has jumped into the chasm of plutocratic fascism with both feet. One of many steps in our descent into authoritarian rule overseen by our corporate masters. It's inevitable. To quote Star Wars, this is how liberty dies - with thunderous applause.

 

[Scoob Redux]

it's just now that's happening on your phone, but that scan has no affect on your life or privacy...

So, surveilling my private photos has no affect on my privacy? Your statement defies all logic.

That's like saying all cops can unconstitutionally search all people, homes, vehicles, etc. but they won't "do" anything unless they find something illegal. The constitution was designed to prevent exactly that. This being a corporation, the constitution doesn't apply. So, government will use access to Apple data as a "back door" to do what would otherwise be unconstitutional. Sad that anyone could not understand the threat to liberty. Oh well, we enjoyed it for a few hundred years...time to get on with authoritarianism and subjugation!

 

[Feyl]

But privacy is a human right!!!

 

[giggles]

So, surveilling my private photos has no affect on my privacy? Your statement defies all logic.

That's like saying all cops can unconstitutionally search all people, homes, vehicles, etc. but they won't "do" anything unless they find something illegal. The constitution was designed to prevent exactly that. This being a corporation, the constitution doesn't apply. So, government will use access to Apple data as a "back door" to do what would otherwise be unconstitutional. Sad that anyone could not understand the threat to liberty. Oh well, we enjoyed it for a few hundred years...time to get on with authoritarianism and subjugation!

They are scanning these pics only if you say you’re bringing them into their vault.
Not in your home.
Sounds fair or not really different than scanning them once they’re already in their vault.
People are scared because the way they do it is super efficient and fast, so slippery slopes, but that could be said about anything, even about scary fast neural engine hardware itself.

 

[giggles]

Can cloud hosts actually be like safe deposit lockers in banks? (i.e. don’t check for the content)

That’s the actual question.

Hashing pics one minute before upload or one minute after upload is a technicality.
AI will be getting crazy fast at doing this anyway, both server side and client side.

 

[400]

I wonder if approaches from higher authorities with an "or else" attached nudged this direction. But still don't have a problem using the services. I don't use google or facebook cos I read they T+C. Still prefer the Apple model over them.

Wonder if zero knowledge backups will go the same way.

 

[MacBH928]

Apple is punishing me for being a loyal customer, for about 2 decades I tried to support them against Microsoft and use their product-and mac apps- without piracy as much as I can, without jailbreaking, and buying legit tv shows and media off the iTunes store. Now they punish me by invading my privacy and scanning my data and info.

There is no trust in those corrupted capitalists. We have to fight for ourselves and create our own FOSS software, we have to join in supporting via money, usage, and advocation for it.

 

[MacBH928]

Can cloud hosts actually be like safe deposit lockers in banks? (i.e. don’t check for the content)

That’s the actual question.

Hashing pics one minute before upload or one minute after upload is a technicality.
AI will be getting crazy fast at doing this anyway, both server side and client side.

you can encrypt the file before uploading it

 

[giggles]

you can encrypt the file before uploading it

Regular people can’t.
Unless there a huge cultural shift around this concept in the next decades.

 

[liketom]

In the old days of Camera Film you had to get it developed and printed, any questionable content was either censored/removed or reported.

Simplistic that was todays enforcement authorities would go steps beyond this and use uploaded content for evidence for/against an individual for even other people for the cases.

On the fence, but this may be another iOS agreement to accept or decline granting access to your data for enforcement authorities to use.

 

[giggles]

With great powers come great responsibilities.
We’re getting neural engines that within 1 second can do billions of operations and AIs that can spot a cancer cell among millions.

We’re also getting some super efficient ways to mass-check for stuff that our societies deem heinous and super illegal. Of course they may be abused potentially, duh. What’s the solution, going back to feature phones? Bad actors would develop these techniques anyway and get there before meh-actors-with-a-decent-track-record like Apple.

 

[baypharm]

In the old days of Camera Film you had to get it developed and printed, any questionable content was either censored/removed or reported.

Simplistic that was todays enforcement authorities would go steps beyond this and use uploaded content for evidence for/against an individual for even other people for the cases.

On the fence, but this may be another iOS agreement to accept or decline granting access to your data for enforcement authorities to use.

In the old days, questionable content was processed in your home darkroom.

 

[usagora]

So, surveilling my private photos has no affect on my privacy? Your statement defies all logic.

That's like saying all cops can unconstitutionally search all people, homes, vehicles, etc. but they won't "do" anything unless they find something illegal. The constitution was designed to prevent exactly that. This being a corporation, the constitution doesn't apply. So, government will use access to Apple data as a "back door" to do what would otherwise be unconstitutional. Sad that anyone could not understand the threat to liberty. Oh well, we enjoyed it for a few hundred years...time to get on with authoritarianism and subjugation!

You're not understanding. NO ONE sees the scan results from your phone except for flagged photos and only then if there's a certain number of flagged photos and only THEN if you upload them to iCloud (where Apple has always been able to access your content if they wanted to). The scan is not being monitored by Apple employees, LOL! It's all happening within the software and completely hidden from Apple's eyes.

 

[iHorseHead]

There goes my usually strongest argument for iOS vs. Android.

Android is actually more secure and safer than iOS.
I've been thinking of switching to Linux and back to Android. And I don't mean Google's Android.

 

[satcomer]

Are you trolling, or did you genuinely not read and understand the article?

Wow your taking this personally!