GetSwole37

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Original poster
Jun 23, 2010
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On the wide camera

the pro has a 1/2.5” sensor

the pro max has a 1/1.9” sensor

compared to both, what do you all think is night shot improvement? Apple says there is a 87% improvement on the 12 Pro max vs 11. What do you all think the improvement to each other would be?

It’s mentioned there is a 27% improvement on 12 pro vs 11. I am guessing this is where they went from f1.8 to f1.6.

simple math would tell me that between the 12 pro and 12 pro max 87% improvement minus the 27% they mentioned for both would then be that the max would be about 60% better at night. However,
looking at the sensor sizes here


is that size difference really that much better? I see the difference of 1.4úm vs 1.7úm pixel sensor also and wondering if that makes a huge difference

Also. In regards to the image stabilization. I hear pros and cons for both. I would prefer to not use a gimbal , but I know on my iPhone X, optical image stabilization did not cut it and wondering if it will be the same thing w sensor stabilization. Might as well just stick to gimbal?
 
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UltimateSyn

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Mar 3, 2008
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Great questions, I’d love to hear people more knowledgeable than myself chime in.

Where did you pull those sensor sizes from?

Regarding the % improvements... if the 12 Pro is 27% ‘better’ in low light vs. the 11 and the 12 Pro Max is 87% ’better,’ then the 12 Pro Max is 1.87 / 1.27 = 1.47x (47%) better than the 12 Pro.
 

GetSwole37

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Original poster
Jun 23, 2010
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there were a few articles back in March where the max was mentioned that it would be the only one getting sensor upgrade and the size. So the 12 pro was staying same. Whether that size is 100% accurate, I’m not sure but these leakers seem to nail them.


Great questions, I’d love to hear people more knowledgeable than myself chime in.

Where did you pull those sensor sizes from?

Regarding the % improvements... if the 12 Pro is 27% ‘better’ in low light vs. the 11 and the 12 Pro Max is 87% ’better,’ then the 12 Pro Max is 1.87 / 1.27 = 1.47x (47%) better than the 12 Pro.
 
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hifimacianer

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Feb 5, 2015
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My understanding is, that the 12 Pro max has a 87% better low light performance than the 12 Pro, because of the bigger pixels. On top of that, both have a better (faster) wide wide lenses than the 11 Pro models, which makes both new models better in this regard.

Ragarding the image stabilisation, I don't think that the difference between the sensor-shift and the lens stabilisation is that huge. The lens stabilisation is 5x better in the 12Pro compared to the 11Pro. I think they had to use lens-shift because of the bigger sensor.
 

GetSwole37

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Original poster
Jun 23, 2010
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Well. This should settle the stabilization debate. This guy is using a gimbal. Let’s me to believe that although some stabilization is better than none, still not gimbal free.

This video presented at announcement is using gimbal.

 

xmlninja

macrumors regular
Aug 10, 2010
140
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Cant wait for the real world user comparsions but just comparing the specs, the pro max should have significant better camera. Bigger sensor always means better image quality both in photos and videos.
 

Samut

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Oct 1, 2017
160
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My guess is 1 maybe 2 stops. A little less noise and a little more ability to pull the shadow detail. Not noticeable unless you are pixel peeping IMHO.

Agreed. Most likely improvements in shadow noise and slightly better dynamic range.

If you are set on upgrading this year because of the cameras I would go for the pro max. I looked through Sony IMX sensors and closest candidate was IMX 557. Though it had slightly larger pixels.

Does anyone know if Apple is using the same old sensors or are they new sensors with same specs as with Iphone 11 pro?
 

javisan

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Dec 4, 2006
453
541
Chicago, IL
If you are set on upgrading this year because of the cameras I would go for the pro max.

Or if you are ok with not upgrading this year, you can wait for the 2021 iPhone, which according to early rumors, will have the 12 Pro Max sensors on all models.
 

GetSwole37

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jun 23, 2010
159
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Or if you are ok with not upgrading this year, you can wait for the 2021 iPhone, which according to early rumors, will have the 12 Pro Max sensors on all models.

i wish. I have the iPhone X and all these changes are huge now for me. I really like my X size. I take photos and do a lot of videos so I know the camera is key for me. My X still does very well for day stuff but have been jealous of the night stuff for a while. Plus my phones battery is now at 79% max and the OLED screen has burn in. 😞

I just wish we had some folks doing some comparison now on the pro cameras to help me decide. Lol
 
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javisan

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Dec 4, 2006
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Chicago, IL
i wish. I have the iPhone X and all these changes are huge now for me. I really like my X size. I take photos and do a lot of videos so I know the camera is key for me. My X still does very well for day stuff but have been jealous of the night stuff for a while. Plus my phones battery is now at 79% max and the OLED screen has burn in. 😞

I just wish we had some folks doing some comparison now on the pro cameras to help me decide. Lol

I get it, I'm upgrading from an 8+ myself and don't want to wait another year! I know I'll be happy with the 12 Pro for at least 3 years (hopefully 4!), by then I would hope that the things I wanted on the 12 Pro that ended up not materializing, will be present then.
 

loybond

macrumors 6502a
Aug 1, 2010
778
565
The True North, Strong and Free
The sensor being bigger makes it better, but it's probably hard to describe as a percentage, because the computational element changes things. E.g. on dpreview, you can see that the Pixels night mode is cleaner and more detailed than the rx100 with its 1" sensor. And the pixel size doesn't always add up, like the A7Siii and the A7iii look really close in video noise/detail at high ISOs despite a pretty big difference in pixel size (24 mp vs 12 on the same size sensor).

Same thing with dynamic range, the smart HDR for pics and extended dynamic range in video (which takes 2 exposures and combines them into 1 frame) sort of solve the dynamic range problem of small sensors.

But when not in night mode, and light is low, I think that's where we'll see a difference with the Max, and particularly with video detail/noise. Depth of field will probably look slightly shallower too.

Image stabilization was already a lot better on the XS generation, but it btook a big step forward with the 11 generation. They call it cinematic video stabilization, but basically it uses gyro data to make the video very smooth, almost gimbal like. I Don't think you'd need a gimbal at all.

All the camera features that I think are awesome didn't exist on the X, so I think you'll see a huge jump all around, with either phone.

On the wide camera

the pro has a 1/2.5” sensor

the pro max has a 1/1.9” sensor

compared to both, what do you all think is night shot improvement? Apple says there is a 87% improvement on the 12 Pro max vs 11. What do you all think the improvement to each other would be?

It’s mentioned there is a 27% improvement on 12 pro vs 11. I am guessing this is where they went from f1.8 to f1.6.

simple math would tell me that between the 12 pro and 12 pro max 87% improvement minus the 27% they mentioned for both would then be that the max would be about 60% better at night. However,
looking at the sensor sizes here


is that size difference really that much better? I see the difference of 1.4úm vs 1.7úm pixel sensor also and wondering if that makes a huge difference

Also. In regards to the image stabilization. I hear pros and cons for both. I would prefer to not use a gimbal , but I know on my iPhone X, optical image stabilization did not cut it and wondering if it will be the same thing w sensor stabilization. Might as well just stick to gimbal?
 

T-Will

macrumors 65816
Sep 8, 2008
1,029
409
Coming from a X here and in the same minor predicament. I want the best camera, but not necessarily a Max sized iPhone. Not sure how much real world difference the larger sensor and sensor shift technology will make with the Max. Will probably get a 12 Pro then decide whether the Max camera is worth the overall size trade off once it’s released.
 

xmlninja

macrumors regular
Aug 10, 2010
140
102
i wish. I have the iPhone X and all these changes are huge now for me. I really like my X size. I take photos and do a lot of videos so I know the camera is key for me. My X still does very well for day stuff but have been jealous of the night stuff for a while. Plus my phones battery is now at 79% max and the OLED screen has burn in. 😞

I just wish we had some folks doing some comparison now on the pro cameras to help me decide. Lol

Coming from a X here and in the same minor predicament. I want the best camera, but not necessarily a Max sized iPhone. Not sure how much real world difference the larger sensor and sensor shift technology will make with the Max. Will probably get a 12 Pro then decide whether the Max camera is worth the overall size trade off once it’s released.

Im in the same boat. Actually my X died 2 months ago so Im on an old iphone 7. The max is a big beast though. Not sure i want that big size of a phone. However looking from the other direction, its a very small capable camera compared to big cameras. I had the iphone 6 plus back when it came out. It was huge and a bit of a relief when the X came out.

Will be interesting to see how notable the differences are on the 12 pro and 12 pro max. Its going to be one of them for sure. I hope some reviewer gets unit before release date of the pro max to make comparison for us.
 
Last edited:

xmlninja

macrumors regular
Aug 10, 2010
140
102
The sensor being bigger makes it better, but it's probably hard to describe as a percentage, because the computational element changes things. E.g. on dpreview, you can see that the Pixels night mode is cleaner and more detailed than the rx100 with its 1" sensor. And the pixel size doesn't always add up, like the A7Siii and the A7iii look really close in video noise/detail at high ISOs despite a pretty big difference in pixel size (24 mp vs 12 on the same size sensor).

Same thing with dynamic range, the smart HDR for pics and extended dynamic range in video (which takes 2 exposures and combines them into 1 frame) sort of solve the dynamic range problem of small sensors.

But when not in night mode, and light is low, I think that's where we'll see a difference with the Max, and particularly with video detail/noise. Depth of field will probably look slightly shallower too.

Image stabilization was already a lot better on the XS generation, but it btook a big step forward with the 11 generation. They call it cinematic video stabilization, but basically it uses gyro data to make the video very smooth, almost gimbal like. I Don't think you'd need a gimbal at all.

All the camera features that I think are awesome didn't exist on the X, so I think you'll see a huge jump all around, with either phone.

It has always been a rule of thumb that bigger sensor lets more light flood through the lens to the sensor. 47% bigger sensor on the max over the pro with all the computational on top of it tells me that the it will do everything of this more efficient and better. Iam leaning to the max because I will probably keep it for 3 years
 
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GetSwole37

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jun 23, 2010
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I will almost be ok with my order being a little late so I can have the return window option available to get the max pro if reviewers do show a huge difference.
 
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alexxk

macrumors 6502
Jul 29, 2010
403
110
Can anyone tell me if the Ultra Wide lens had any upgrades vs iPhone 11? No one is really talking about, is this lens a Copy and Paste?
 

oVerboost

macrumors 68000
Sep 17, 2013
1,561
1,031
United Kingdom
Can anyone tell me if the Ultra Wide lens had any upgrades vs iPhone 11? No one is really talking about, is this lens a Copy and Paste?

On what device? If it's on the Pro then it will be improved due to LiDAR in low-mid light environments. But likely a similar experience to what the 11 has, however until it's tested in the real world no one will really know as chip advances also have a big effect on the camera quality on these phones too.
 

Ortiz83

macrumors 6502a
Mar 9, 2018
528
285
Cant wait for the real world user comparsions but just comparing the specs, the pro max should have significant better camera. Bigger sensor always means better image quality both in photos and videos.

So here is my question. The iPhone 12 Pro Max telephoto has a 2.2 aperture and the iPhone 12 Pro has a 2.0 aperture. Yet the iPhone 11 Pro Max had a 2.0 aperture. Why this move and will it hurt quality?
 

alexxk

macrumors 6502
Jul 29, 2010
403
110
On what device? If it's on the Pro then it will be improved due to LiDAR in low-mid light environments. But likely a similar experience to what the 11 has, however until it's tested in the real world no one will really know as chip advances also have a big effect on the camera quality on these phones too.
Yes, Iphone 12 Pro.

Yes, I understand the Lidar will help with auto focus and new chips have better image processing, however the hardware itself seems to be exact the same. Same sensor, lens, aperture.. and all.
 

loybond

macrumors 6502a
Aug 1, 2010
778
565
The True North, Strong and Free
I don't think the ultrawide actually has autofocus.

On what device? If it's on the Pro then it will be improved due to LiDAR in low-mid light environments. But likely a similar experience to what the 11 has, however until it's tested in the real world no one will really know as chip advances also have a big effect on the camera quality on these phones too.
 

andyw715

macrumors 65816
Oct 25, 2013
1,302
740
Are they the same resolution (between Pro and Max), if so then the larger pixels will have better dynamic range.
 

xmlninja

macrumors regular
Aug 10, 2010
140
102
Anyone preordering the 12 pro today who can hook us up with some sample photos next week? :)
 

GetSwole37

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jun 23, 2010
159
119
Me. Will get it Friday. It all came to size for me. I know I would love a slightly better camera than the pro, but I have to think about everyday use than the single times I will really wish I had a slight better camera. But those days. I probably would wish I had an actual camera w all the bells and whistles.
 
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profets

macrumors 601
Mar 18, 2009
4,777
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i wish. I have the iPhone X and all these changes are huge now for me. I really like my X size. I take photos and do a lot of videos so I know the camera is key for me. My X still does very well for day stuff but have been jealous of the night stuff for a while. Plus my phones battery is now at 79% max and the OLED screen has burn in. 😞

I just wish we had some folks doing some comparison now on the pro cameras to help me decide. Lol

I have an X and an 11 Pro Max. The camera upgrade from the X to 11 Pro blows me away (I recently started using the X again to get used to the size, and the camera I find painful after using the 11 Pro for the past year).

In summary - I'd say regardless of which model you upgrade to: 12, 12 Pro, 12 Pro Max, they're all going to be a significant upgrade to you in terms of the camera. And the difference in camera improvements between the 12 Pro and 12 Pro Max will be quite negligible in comparison.
 
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