problems with the G5 benchmarks?

[Independence]

Re: Re: what a load of whiny crap

Originally posted by MrJamie

Originally posted by ffakr
How fast does your monitor refresh?

Good point. I wish PC gamers had half a brain sometimes

my monitor refreshes at a rate of 70hz. i'm a PC user.

i don't appreciate being told i don't have half a brain based on what platform my computer is based on. to see if you have half a brain, why don't you tell me the refresh rate of your monitor?

 

[G4scott]

I just love this...

The thing is that benchmarks are going to be biased one way or another, no matter who does the testing.

I really do like what Apple's VP of engineering said... Apple should run the tests again, as he claimed.

The thing that I don't get, as how so many people claim to be experts on the G5, especially pee-cee users who don't even know jack about Macs, and try to debunk benchmark figures...

I don't know much about the G5, except that it's a 64bit processor, and from what I've seen, it kicks @$$.

Another thing that got me, was the guy posting about the 1.6 G5 having about the same mobo as the G4... I'm sorry, but I doubt a 64 bit processor would even start to work with a 32 bit mobo, much less a mobo designed for a completely different processor. At least I know that much about the G5...

I'll just reiterate what has been said before. We'll see who the true performer is when people get these machines in the real world. By the looks of it, intel has some catching up to do (about 3ghz worth of catching up, if you ask me... )

There's just one thing I'd like to say... Can we stop with this "My mac doesn't crash/My PC doesn't crash" crap? I'm sorry, but both OS's can crash... Depending on the quality of the memory, the apps you're running, and all that, you can have completely different experiences. If you're going to say my Mac never crashes, but my PC does, please, tell us what you do with them. I'm tired of these "My PC doesn't crash, and it's setup as a server", but they don't tell you that the server gets 1 hit a year, or something... Each system is designed for maximum crash-protection. If something crashes for some reason, and the whole world isn't experiencing it, it's because of a defect, or the software you're using, and not Apple's, Microsoft's, Dell's, or Intel's fault... (even though we all know why windoze sux so much ) So if you're going to make claims about how much or how little your computer crashes, tell us what you do with it, please...

 

[QCassidy352]

Originally posted by illumin8
Finally, a voice of reason in a crowded room of zealots... Welcome.

um, there seem to be more people here who don't believe apple than people who do. and there has been a lot of reasonable discussion from both sides... but whatever.

 

[MrJamie]

Yea scott, except that the Apple benchmarks are so hard to believe because of what Apple has done in the past.

On the same page they show the current G5 to be faster than the P4 in quake (powermac/graphics.html or whatever) they had had graphs where the g4 was faster, too -- and it wasn't.

Myself, I don't really care for any of Apple's tests -- I'll wait for 3rd party sources to show me how fast the machines really are

Independence:
I was being sarcastic about PC gamers having half a brain, I'm sorry if I offended you. I just wanted to poke fun at the fact that many gamers (mac AND pc) go nuts over the difference between 350 and 380 fps in quake, where their monitor cannot display more than 65/70/85fps due to its refresh rate

 

[acj]

Photoshop

A little late, but here's the screenshot on XP to clear up earlier confusions. I'm not quite sure people realize both OS's let you turn font smoothing on and off. XP's is a touch better, in some peoples minds. It will render the font size slightly different by default, hence lines start with different words. I think he was on an Apple.


Photoshop: I hate these damned photoshop tests. Photoshop has about 100 filters. which 45 did they use? Most people only use a few, and for me the filter performance is not the biggest issue.

Being a professional photographer, I want the fastest computer for running USM, gaussian blur, crop with rotate, open, save, and most importantly paint with a gigantic 2500 px soft brush in an adjustment layer on a modest 50MB file.

Right now, my PC (which I am on and hence got the screenshot) is fastest for that, and it happened to cost about $800.

If the G5 is even 10% faster, It's worth the $3500-$4000 (ram upgrade needed, Raid storage prefered)

 

[pozytron]

From the article:

It is obvious what happened. Apple paid Veritest to make a report that would make the G5 look impressive. This by itself isn't necessarily bad. What I dislike is Apple describing the report as "independent", when clearly it is not.
(My emphasis)

I'd be interested in what veritest has to say about this low blow.

I don't trust that author because he does not bother to point out that Dell's benchmarks are probably flawed themselves. (He also clearly doesn't use a mac and lies about it, but that's beside the point).

Mac is Good


I would like to end on a positive note by saying that there are many great things about Macs. The price-to-speed ratio of Macs is not one of those great things, but just because it is poor on that particular point, that does not mean that everything about it is poor. Macs excel in other areas. Speed is not everything.

So, please do not take my article as a criticism of Macs. Rather, I am criticising misleading advertising and fanaticism.

What other areas? Clearly the mac is an inferior product according to the rest of the article.

In conclusion: Perhaps benchmarks are flawed. I don't have enough information to make a stance... someone should perform their own tests with maximum optimizations on both machines. This article read more like a biased mac-bashing fest than unbiased facts.

 

[JOHNGAETANO]

If any of you people are really Mac users, then why worry about the PC?
The new G5 is one kick butt computer. Thats all we need to know, or care about.

 

[groov']

only difference is price and OS

Can't we stop arguin' which system has the best specs?

Independant objective testers, like independant objective newsjournalists or so, do not exist.

Fact is: all systems are very impressive and have their good and bad things.

Most important: Apple has the best OS, but is (too) expensive. Other systems are a lot cheaper, but lack ease of use and beauty.

If money doesn't matter, go buy a mac.

What you pay is what you get.

 

[maradong]

Originally posted by hvfsl
Quake 3 on a 3Ghz P4 with Radeon 9700pro gets over 400fps, while the 2Ghz dual G5 gets just over 300fps. According to www.tomshardware.com the AMD 2700XP is actually 10fps faster than the P4. It looks like we are still behind Intel/AMD in terms of gaming speed.

I know that we do not need anything more than 60fps but Doom3 requires a lot of processing power and it looks like the best PC is 25% faster than the best Mac. At least this has gone down from the 60% it was before, but it is still not very good.

Although this may change soon since UT2003 is being optimised for 64bit machines, so I will hold off on my final judgement until I see 64bit UT2003 running on a Mac vs the PC.

games have to have many mhz. that s all they work with fast cycling and fast task regeneration.
therefore 2000 mhz is < to 3000 mhz.

 

[Mac Messenger]

Originally posted by JOHNGAETANO
If any of you people are really Mac users, then why worry about the PC?
The new G5 is one kick butt computer. Thats all we need to know, or care about.

I'm going to have to agree with John. When was the last time you pulled your mac up to a red light and had a PC revvvinggg on you to race? Mac people are mac people and PC people are people with a computer. What I mean by that is most of the mac user's share a passion for their system. It's not alway's my system is faster then yours. Mac people care about the entire package. Starting with a stable OS that they love and design that in 2nd to none. If your someone that cares about having the fastest system, then your not a mac addict. A Ford Mustang might be faster then a Mercedes. So why would you buy a Benz? Style my friend, it's all about style. ohhh yeah....it's also about 8 gigs of memory....( when does Lightwave 8 come out?)

 

[sgomez]

Oh My God!

I am an avid fan of Apple products, a user of many Apples since the mid-80's and a pro user with my PowerMac G4.
This has been the most entertaining thread I've read in a very long time. You guys should spend more time doing actual work (yeah I know, look who's talking) than babbling about specs no one cares about.

The point is:

- is the job going to be done?
- Is it going to be done in time?
- Is it going to be done correctly?

With an Apple computer the answer is YES. PERIOD.

Stop with the non-sense name calling (which I won't do). Who cares if there is only a 5% market share? Who cares about Intel's new P4's?

This is going to be my only post just because I couldn't take this anymore. Post after post, you guys and gals have contradicted yourselves, repeated yourselves and above all: Wasted time!! (ohh I repeated myself)..

I'll be buying a G5 regardless of the Specs, not because I buy into the hype, not because it looks good on my desk, not because my friends will think I'm cool or loaded... JUST BECAUSE IT GETS THE JOB DONE LIKE NO OTHER COMPUTER.

Ciao.

 

[benixau]

Re: Oh My God!

Originally posted by sgomez
... JUST BECAUSE IT GETS THE JOB DONE LIKE NO OTHER COMPUTER.

Finally - a mac user on this site. We said this when the G4 was the best - why should a "kickass" system change that?

this guy got it right. Useability and "to repeat" getting the job done first time round is more important than a few hundred Mhz. These speeds are for switchers really.

BTW - for pc users saying the apple cheated -> how come an AMD 2400+ kills a P43Ghz yet a P4 2.4 kill an AMD 2800+ depending on who you ask. Apple is marketing. So are they all. It is just that macs have a loyal fan base and pcs do not.

 

[Catt]

Its all very nice to argue about the speed of the new G5 compared to a P4 but the fact still remains that Apple's products have always been extortionately priced compared to PCs.
In terms of cost/performance I suspect that the G5s, as with all other Apple computers, will lag significantly behind P4s and Athlons - regardless of real world speeds.

It is this that Apple needs to sort out. If I could buy a top of the range G5 system for the same price as a top of the range P4 system then I would probably go for the G5 but the fact of the matter is that I can't do this. You can buy an extremely fast P4 or Athlon for £2000 including monitor, decent graphics card, speakers etc all in. A dual 2GHZ G5 cost £200 more than this and comes with absolutely nothing other than the system, no monitor, no speakers - only the keyboard and mouse.

 

[ColdZero]

Re: Re: Oh My God!

Originally posted by benixau
BTW - for pc users saying the apple cheated -> how come an AMD 2400+ kills a P43Ghz yet a P4 2.4 kill an AMD 2800+ depending on who you ask. Apple is marketing. So are they all. It is just that macs have a loyal fan base and pcs do not.

Nobody says that an Athlon doesn't beat a P4 of higher clock, but there are truely objective tests that say that. I could care less about marketing or how fast one company says its proc is compared to another. What I care about is when a company says its done independent testing. Which to most people means fair, then it turns out that the benchmark settings were tilted in Apple's favor. I don't like being told that something is the truth from a company and then find out its a lie. Its the same reason I have an ATI card in my computer and not nVidia. I was going to reccommend a new lab where I work filled with dual 2.0 G5s, and maybe I still will, but this whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[mk_in_mke]

Guys, let's cut the crap

Guys,

The Mac community is lucky... Lucky because we are using extraordinary tools and lucky because the company that we all love has always innovated, created, gone the extra mile to provide us with a great computing experience...

I have been SOOOO excited before the WWDC and I have not been disappointed... Did Steve Jobs push it a little? Yes... As usual
"Super!", "Cool", "Super Cool", "The world fastest...". But this is Steve Jobs, this is what he has been for years, this is what we like about him...

Now let's be serious ew minutes... All the buzz about the speed who cares? Who cares that a Xeon is faster or slower than a G5? We are not going to use it anyway!!! Leave the speed consideration to Wintel users... What counts?

This year has been EXTRORDINARY for us... What HW/SW company has provide their users so much in 6 months? NONE...

Instead of talking about the PC users and their funny machines, let's use this place to comment directions / give directions to Apple and may be one day.... Steve's stetement will be true!!!


Mac Users: you rock!!!


Michel


PS: Hey Steve, next time...

 

[sgomez]

Thank you.

 

[whooleytoo]

Originally posted by ColdZero
You need to do a clean install of windows, nothing else besides drivers for the video card and sound. Also there are bios settings for memory timings and stuff that need to be set. Sound is also most likely disabled for these tests too. Q3 is a bandwidth intensive benchmark, thats shown by the increase in performance from a 800 FSB P4 and a 533 FSB P4 of equal speeds.

Jaysus! Whatever happened to "real world tests" ?!? These benchmarks make Apple's seem almost honest and fortright...

Mike.

 

[mk_in_mke]

Who cares anyway???

Originally posted by Catt
Its all very nice to argue about the speed of the new G5 compared to a P4 but the fact still remains that Apple's products have always been extortionately priced compared to PCs.
In terms of cost/performance I suspect that the G5s, as with all other Apple computers, will lag significantly behind P4s and Athlons - regardless of real world speeds.

It is this that Apple needs to sort out. If I could buy a top of the range G5 system for the same price as a top of the range P4 system then I would probably go for the G5 but the fact of the matter is that I can't do this. You can buy an extremely fast P4 or Athlon for £2000 including monitor, decent graphics card, speakers etc all in. A dual 2GHZ G5 cost £200 more than this and comes with absolutely nothing other than the system, no monitor, no speakers - only the keyboard and mouse.

Really... Who cares? With all due respect.....

You want to go from London to Manchester... You have the choice to drive any vehicle you want... Some people take their Rover and some take their Rolls... Both will go to Manchester... The only difference: the driving experience...

Now, take this back to computing: do me a favor and compare what the machines come loaded with, compare the OS's, compare the integration MAchine / Soft...

For me, your argument about the price, though very valid, makes no sense... Some people don't even think about their user experience and are willing to save 200, 300 for a 3 years investment... that's a choice, I respect it but... thanks, no please... I stick with the mac... What I got in 20+ years using Mac has been extraordinary.... I use Win2K in the office on a top of the line laptop... cannot compare!

Once again, I don't mean to be rude or not respectful... I simply think that saving a couple hundred up front is not a good calculation when it comes to this type of investment...


Regards,

Michel

 

[Catt]

Re: Who cares anyway???

Originally posted by mk_in_mke
Really... Who cares? With all due respect.....

You want to go from London to Manchester... You have the choice to drive any vehicle you want... Some people take their Rover and some take their Rolls... Both will go to Manchester... The only difference: the driving experience...

Now, take this back to computing: do me a favor and compare what the machines come loaded with, compare the OS's, compare the integration MAchine / Soft...

For me, your argument about the price, though very valid, makes no sense... Some people don't even think about their user experience and are willing to save 200, 300 for a 3 years investment... that's a choice, I respect it but... thanks, no please... I stick with the mac... What I got in 20+ years using Mac has been extraordinary.... I use Win2K in the office on a top of the line laptop... cannot compare!

Once again, I don't mean to be rude or not respectful... I simply think that saving a couple hundred up front is not a good calculation when it comes to this type of investment...


Regards,

Michel

You're not just saving a couple of hundred your're saving at least 500 hundred. After you've brought a monitor for a dual 2GhZ mac and a set of decent 5.1 speakers you're looking at over £3'000.
If Apple wants to increase its market share it will have to reduce the cost of its systems, simple as that.

My experience of Mac OS X is that it is difficult to use, I find windows far easier - granted I've had far more oppurtunity to use PCs but my family do own an iMac which I use from time to time. If I was going to buy a good looking computer I would most likely choose an Apple, but if I was looking for value for money and power I would go with a PC.

Anyway my original point is that it makes no diffference if the G5 is as fast as a 3 GHZ P4 if it costs 50% more.

 

[mk_in_mke]

Re: Re: Who cares anyway???

Originally posted by Catt
You're not just saving a couple of hundred your're saving at least 500 hundred. After you've brought a monitor for a dual 2GhZ mac and a set of decent 5.1 speakers you're looking at over £3'000.
If Apple wants to increase its market share it will have to reduce the cost of its systems, simple as that.

My experience of Mac OS X is that it is difficult to use, I find windows far easier - granted I've had far more oppurtunity to use PCs but my family do own an iMac which I use from time to time. If I was going to buy a good looking computer I would most likely choose an Apple, but if I was looking for value for money and power I would go with a PC.

Anyway my original point is that it makes no diffference if the G5 is as fast as a 3 GHZ P4 if it costs 50% more.

You just made my point... We are talking about different things here... once again: user experience and computer usage... If Apple wanted to increase its market share, I would advice them not to lower their cost... I would suggest a deep brain wash of most PC users... "Macs are not compatible", "Macs is for Graphic" and all the crap we hear... Now: you are the only person, i repeat the only person in 20+ years, that says Mac OS is difficult to use... OSX? What are you doing that makes it dificult to use...?


Michel

 

[Catt]

Re: Re: Re: Who cares anyway???

Originally posted by mk_in_mke
You just made my point... We are talking about different things here... once again: user experience and computer usage... If Apple wanted to increase its market share, I would advice them not to lower their cost... I would suggest a deep brain wash of most PC users... "Macs are not compatible", "Macs is for Graphic" and all the crap we hear... Now: you are the only person, i repeat the only person in 20+ years, that says Mac OS is difficult to use... OSX? What are you doing that makes it dificult to use...?


Michel

I think I find Mac OS X harder to use than Windows because the default mouse only has one button - I may try to convince my parents to get a two button mouse. I admitt I've only been using it for about 6 weeks compared to six years on Windows.
Mac OS X is certainly more attractive than any Windows OS and it seems to be far more stable.
I use it for Photoshop elements, some word processing and web surfing; pretty much what I use my laptop for.

 

[MrJamie]

Re: Oh My God!

Originally posted by sgomez
You guys should spend more time doing actual work (yeah I know, look who's talking) than babbling about specs no one cares about.

Eh. Take your egocentric attitude somewhere else, or realize that your own carelessness isn't a represantation of the entire community at large, let alone the single mac community.

Finally - a mac user on this site.

So, to be a mac user, I have to be a blind, fanatical devotee who cares about nothing other than the fact that the G5 is faster than the G4? I'm not sure I agree with you here. Maybe the word you were looking for was "evangelist?" I'd suggest "zealot," but that's a bit more mean than I care to be

 

[MrJamie]

Originally posted by Catt
In terms of cost/performance I suspect that the G5s, as with all other Apple computers, will lag significantly behind P4s and Athlons - regardless of real world speeds.

Uh, heh. The way you wrote that, it appears that you're saying no matter how fast the performance of the Apple machines are, the cost/performance will always lag behind P4 and Athlons.

If the apple is 30 times as fast as the P4/Athlons and costs $1000 more, the cost/performance certainly would not be lagging be hind at all, would it.

If it was just a sementical error (i.e. you meant one thing but couldn't express it in your type) then you're off the hook

 

[QCassidy352]

two things:

1) to all the people who keep posting just to tell the rest of us to stop arguing - why would you bother doing that? If you find the argument pointless, why add your own posts just to tell us we are being silly? Why not just ignore the discussion?

2) there are lots of threads and posts comparing prices between high end dells and G5s. Do a search on macrumors. You'll see that once all of the components are evened out, the two systems cost almost exactly the same. You don't have to take my word for it; just go to apple.com and dell.com and price them out for yourselves.

 

[sgomez]

MrJamie... Wow, touché..... Egocentrical uh? hehehehe

I'll just leave it at that, we're all smart enough to make our own conclusions after posts like yours.

-- As for my blindness in Apple Land? Well that's just foolish. I am no fanatic, I've used both platforms in the past at the same time but now prefer to use my macs for obvious reasons that I have posted earlier. For the rest, you've answered yourself in your little tantrum. I don't care if the P4 is 10 times faster than the G6 for God's sake. As you hopefully know, these are two different systems we're talking about and the one I wish to use is called a Powermac.

These are only a few of the factors why I chose my Macs:

- Stability
- OS X
- Graphic Design
- Pro Video/Film
- and kick ass look...

Did I mention the speed? NO!
Did I say P4 in the same breath as G4 or G5? NO!
Do I care if the G5 is faster than other APPLES? OF COURSE!

WHY?

Because I work with Apples and only Apples.
Again, this is a very easy thing to understand and does not need to be complicated.

Have fun flaming my post Jamie.