Progress?

[Dronecatcher]

My daily driver - an i5 Mac Mini (successor to previously a C2D Mac Mini Server and a Mac Pro 1,1) is a necessity for browser compatibility for business reasons, however, it's painfully obvious to me it's one of the slowest Macs I've owned.

Maybe not in computational terms - it can chew through HD video for example with ease - but in GUI terms and responsiveness.
I have to assume it's because OSX 10.13.6 is running off a 5400RPM HDD instead of the recommended SSD - the tagline of "optimised for SSD" is more accurately "SSD required for normal performance."

Today, I thought i'd compare and contrast opening the same applications on the Mini and my 12" Powerbook G4 - the Powerbook has a 1.5Ghz processor and 1.25Gb RAM against the 2.3Ghz i5 on the Mini with 8Gb RAM - the Powerbook is also on a 5400RPM drive too running Tiger.

All apps were run from a fresh boot, then opened again after they'd been cached (which is a major improvement on launch times.)

There's not much between both machines - apart from Safari (both launching to the Google search Homepage) which takes much longer on the Mini - despite having 8 times the raw CPU grunt (according to Geekbench,) 6.4 times the RAM and all the other vast hardware improvements.

Same old story - bloat, the Mini has to wield an overweight OS (that consumes nearly 3GB RAM idle) and spool oversized apps off the HDD to deliver response times in the range of it's ancient ancestor, the Powerbook.

 

[Amethyst1]

My daily driver - an i5 Mac Mini […]

A 2011 model I assume?

I have to assume it's because OSX 10.13.6 is running off a 5400RPM HDD instead of the recommended SSD - the tagline of "optimised for SSD" is more accurately "SSD required for normal performance."

Unfortunately, yep. The fact it’s a slow 2.5” HDD doesn’t help either.

 

[Dronecatcher]

A 2011 model I assume?


Unfortunately, yep. The fact it’s a slow 2.5” HDD doesn’t help either.

Yes, 2011 - I actually bought it as advertised with a 500GB SSD but it arrived with a slow HDD instead - seller pulled the usual send it back for a refund manoeuvre....

 

[Amethyst1]

Yes, 2011 - I actually bought it as advertised with a 500GB SSD but it arrived with a slow HDD instead - seller pulled the usual send it back for a refund manoeuvre....

I’d ask the seller for a partial refund to purchase an SSD with

I’ve had the opposite happen to me: a laptop I bought for 30 bucks was supposed to have a 250 GB HDD but had a 250 GB SSD instead. “Buy an SSD, get a free laptop!”

 

[Dronecatcher]

I’d ask the seller for a partial refund to purchase an SSD with

I’ve had the opposite happen to me: a laptop I bought for 30 bucks was supposed to have a 250 GB HDD but had a 250 GB SSD instead. “Buy an SSD, get a free laptop!”

This was a while ago - he blamed the error on ebay autofilling the ad - which is impossible as the original model shipped with a HDD.

Yes, I've had similar instances of getting a much bigger drive than as advertised

 

[mmphosis]

Oops, I misread. i5 (Intel), not a G5 PowerPC.

 

[Melchieor]

Nice graph @Dronecatcher although I am unsure its an Apples to Apples comparison 😂 Safari on the Intel is much more capable and has more code to crunch through than bloat to maintain its compatibility in today's web 2.0 world. My NES launches games faster than my Xbox 😆

 

[pipetogrep]

Nice graph @Dronecatcher although I am unsure its an Apples to Apples comparison 😂 Safari on the Intel is much more capable and has more code to crunch through than bloat to maintain its compatibility in today's web 2.0 world. My NES launches games faster than my Xbox 😆

It kind of is an Apples to Apples 🤦‍♂️ comparison, though. All the apps tested do the same thing whether they are new or old. Sure, modern Safari can handle modern web standards, but we were doing a majority of the exact same thing back then that we are now.

Calendar is still a calendar. Textedit is still Textedit and yet those open faster on the old OS and the old hardware. The gains in functionality are nowhere near proportional to the increased hardware requirements. I think that's the point @Dronecatcher is making.

 

[m1maverick]

Calendar is still a calendar. Textedit is still Textedit and yet those open faster on the old OS and the old hardware. The gains in functionality are nowhere near proportional to the increased hardware requirements. I think that's the point @Dronecatcher is making.

I agree with this 100% It's too bad the Internet has become so bloated.

 

[mmphosis]

8-bit computers:
instant on to command prompt

READY.

computers get a floppy disk drive:
boot from floppy disk wait for command prompt

DOS VERSION 3.3

computers get a hard disk and can store more stuff like startup scripts:
boot hard disk, startup script runs, wait longer for command prompt

C:\>

computers get Graphical Operating Systems:
startup screen, wait for desktop to load, wait even longer to open a command prompt program

$

computers can be multi-user:
start up screen, wait for desktop to load, login, wait even a bit longer to open a command prompt program

Password:

computers and the internet are ubiquitous:
start up screen, wait for desktop to load, login, get distracted by web browser, forget to open the command prompt program

www

tiny devices are everywhere:
the battery in my phone is dead.

 

[Amethyst1]

Calendar is still a calendar. Textedit is still Textedit and yet those open faster on the old OS and the old hardware. The gains in functionality are nowhere near proportional to the increased hardware requirements.

It would be interesting to add the 2011 mini’s original OS X (Lion), to the comparison.

tiny devices are everywhere:
the battery in my phone is dead.

You’ve just made my day. So very true.

 

[Melchieor]

I agree that we get more distracted with more feeautres however if we stuck with old tech we wouldnt be able to do half as much as we can now and we wouldnt be able to get nostalgic of old stuff either. A car is a car, but a car with antilock breaks and air bags is a safer car although more costly to repair.

 

[m1maverick]

I agree that we get more distracted with more feeautres however if we stuck with old tech we wouldnt be able to do half as much as we can now and we wouldnt be able to get nostalgic of old stuff either. A car is a car, but a car with antilock breaks and air bags is a safer car although more costly to repair.

I'm not so sure I agree with that, at least for most people. This forum demonstrates that, aside from some higher end computing, people can do just fine with older technology. We're just "forced" to use new technology in order to do a lot of what we were able to do with older technology.

 

[Melchieor]

I'm not so sure I agree with that, at least for most people. This forum demonstrates that, aside from some higher end computing, people can do just fine with older technology. We're just "forced" to use new technology in order to do a lot of what we were able to do with older technology.

Sure, people using G3's probably said the same thing about G4's and G5's. People using System 7 said about 8 and 9 .. etc etc... To each their own. Happy owner of most of those anyway

 

[profcutter]

The internet was a far different place when G5s and G4 Powerbooks roamed the land. Streaming 4k video onto your TV was not a thing, and e-commerce wasn't in its infancy, but protocols have changed dramatically, just look at any webpage on the wayback machine, look at it during the G5's heyday, and look now. Yes, it's a massive tradeoff, no no-one asked the users if it was worth the changes, most of them ended up making tracking and advertising more profitable. But to ask a g4 powerbook to do some of the things we take for granted in modern computing is a bit much. I mean, just look:

Apple - Power Mac G5

Netflix: Welcome To Netflix - Rent DVDs Online - Try Free

Netflix: Welcome To Netflix - Rent as many DVDs as you want for just $18/month. Over 30,000 titles from classics to new releases. Free, fast shipping both ways. No late fees ever.

web.archive.org

And yeah, I drive a hell of a lot, I insist on a manual car, but I'm happy I have (defeatable) traction control in my GTI. I also like the odds of surviving a crash in my 2017 vs my old 2001.

 

[Dronecatcher]

Nice graph @Dronecatcher although I am unsure its an Apples to Apples comparison 😂 Safari on the Intel is much more capable and has more code to crunch through than bloat to maintain its compatibility in today's web 2.0 world. My NES launches games faster than my Xbox 😆

You miss my point - the graph illustrates launch times and my suspicion that the GUI on my Powerbook feels faster than my iMac's - despite it being 8 times more powerful.

 

[Dronecatcher]

But to ask a g4 powerbook to do some of the things we take for granted in modern computing is a bit much.

That certainly wasn't the point I was making.

 

[Dronecatcher]

It would be interesting to add the 2011 mini’s original OS X (Lion), to the comparison.

Yes, I think that would confirm the problem here being High Sierra is designed for SSD.

 

[Dronecatcher]

The thread seems to have gone a bit that way but it wasn't my intention.

My point is that High Sierra obviously leans on launching from a SSD to maintain reasonable speeds - something I wasn't expecting to be so pronounced.

Sometimes launching Chromium while Safari is open takes nearly a minute, Brave is the same - not all the time just sometimes. Ditto iCal or iTunes.

The point made about the net being so much more sophisticated now is obvious but I read that as poorly designed and rammed with advertising and data traps - most of the sparkling benefits of the modern web are not for me - I've never craved for resolutions my eye can't see or AI massaged written content I will never read.

Baseline query - how sophisticated does listening to an mp3 have to be that I need a whole new computer, OS and app to do so?

 

[Amethyst1]

Baseline query - how sophisticated does listening to an mp3 have to be that I need a whole new computer, OS and app to do so?

A friend of mine did it on a 33 MHz 486 running Windows 3.1. No idea what bitrate etc., but it worked.

My point is that High Sierra obviously leans on launching from a SSD to maintain reasonable speeds - something I wasn't expecting to be so pronounced.

My 2010 iMac has a 3.5" HDD. I'd have to check if it's 5400rpm or 7200rpm, but High Sierra isn't fun. On the other hand, by the time of High Sierra's release, SSDs had already become cheap enough that getting a small-ish one to use as a boot drive wasn't going to break the bank. When I bought my first SSD in 2008 to replace an unbearably slow 1.8" 4200rpm HDD in an expensive ultraportable, it was more like 200 bucks for all of 32 GB.

 

[Dronecatcher]

A friend of mine did it on a 33 MHz 486 running Windows 3.1. No idea what bitrate etc., but it worked.

Yes, I played mp3 on my Amiga 1200 at some point (think it had a 40Mhz accelerator.)

I should've said listen to an mp3 online - referring to the gradual obsolescence enforced by Spotify, Deezer, Bandcamp and Soundcloud amongst others (I know Soundcloud still just about works in browser but at a massive CPU penalty.)

 

[profcutter]

Bloat bloat bloat. It’s just how the unholy marriage of capitalism and the internet work. Every new feature seems like it comes with more surveillance, more “targeted promotions,” less creativity. I’d argue that most innovations help companies, not end users. Still, I wouldn’t want to edit 4K videos on a G5. I definitely prefer 4K to SD video.

 

[profcutter]

Yes, I think that would confirm the problem here being High Sierra is designed for SSD.

Wasn’t that the issue from the beginning with APFS? That it really was designed around SSDs, not spinning rust? I remember threads about this from the beginning. Is it possible to optimize for both in the same code?

 

[Amethyst1]

Wasn’t that the issue from the beginning with APFS? That it really was designed around SSDs, not spinning rust? I remember threads about this from the beginning. Is it possible to optimize for both in the same code?

The choice of file system shouldn't™ affect the GUI's responsiveness or application launch time that much. My 2010 iMac uses HFS+ for its HDD and disk-intensive operations such as booting and app launching are slow on High Sierra.

 

[Dronecatcher]

I definitely prefer 4K to SD video.

I understand the natural inclination....but my main concern is whether the film is worth watching, the resolution will never fix that - everything I cherish as landmark cinema was viewed on a fuzzy 576P television