ProMotion on iPhone - is it possible?

[Nozuka]

"getting ripped off" can not be measured, because it is completely subjective. there's no scientific/mathematical way to measure it and everyone can set the boundaries wherever they want.

it might be easy to find a consensus on extreme situations like your example. but if millions of people decide to buy the X - even though there were plenty of other options available - then there clearly isn't a consensus and it's just a personal opinion about the value of the product.

 

[Smokes95]

"getting ripped off" can not be measured, because it is completely subjective. there's no scientific/mathematical way to measure it and everyone can set the boundaries wherever they want.

it might be easy to find a consensus on extreme situations like your example. but if millions of people decide to buy the X - even though there were plenty of other options available - then there clearly isn't a consensus and it's just a personal opinion about the value of the product.

When i say value i am referring to how much it cost to build. That was my frist reply to someone who claimed to price to be high due to materials and technology used which it is not. The price is high because it's designed by apple. Just like a gucci bag is expensive even tho you can get cheaper bags at the same quality.


If i had money to get the iphone X i would. But i would still be getting ripped of. Price vs what you get is really poor this time,

 

[Nozuka]

When i say value i am referring to how much it cost to build. That was my frist reply to someone who claimed to price to be high due to materials and technology used which it is not. The price is high because it's designed by apple. Just like a gucci bag is expensive even tho you can get cheaper bags at the same quality.


If i had money to get the iphone X i would. But i would still be getting ripped of. Price vs what you get is really poor this time,

yes you would - in your opinion

because the same thing still stands:
""getting ripped off" can not be measured, because it is completely subjective. there's no scientific/mathematical way to measure it and everyone can set the boundaries wherever they want."

and let's not forget that we don't have any real numbers about how much the X really costs to make. Some analysts even believe, that apple will actually have a smaller profit margin with the X.

https://9to5mac.com/2017/09/18/iphone-x-costs-profit/
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4107964-apple-margin-concerns

• iPhone X gross profit: $999 - $581 = $418
• iPhone X gross margin: 41.8%
• iPhone 7 gross profit: $650 - $248 = $402
• iPhone 7 gross margin: 61.8%

but in the end, noone but apple has the real numbers.

this leaves us with:
- we don't know which iphone is the most overpriced one, because we don't have the real component costs. and this does not even include development, patents, marketing, wages, shipping........

- there is no real way to measure "being ripped off", because there is no hard rule how to calculate it. is it a fixed number higher than the real cost of the device? or is it a percentage? where is the line? and who decides it?


-----> the point at which someone is being ripped off is subjective

 

[RiddlaBronc]

ProMotion looks something great for an S cycle update of the phone in 2018.

Well they just skipped the S cycle this year. Its a clusterf****

 

[redman042]

The price to make iPhone x is half of their selling price. Which is better than 240 buck production cost for the 949.00 iphone. So you're not getting as ripped off.

No it's not. All we have is a parts cost estimate from a third party that may be accurate or may be way off. There's no accounting for R&D, engineering, so on and so forth. Of course, we know Apple is the industry leader in profits. So, sure they are making lots of money on this. In any case, it's a publicly-traded business. The price should be set based on what consumers are willing to pay, with some consideration for competition (top models from Samsung approach $1k), and demand vs availability (availability will be extremely constrained at launch). If they sold the X at $899, many more people would be hammering their preorder page on launch day, and would be filling these forums with loud complaints when shipping times exceed two months.

We can judge them all they want. From a business standpoint, they priced it right.

 

[Smokes95]

yes you would - in your opinion

because the same thing still stands:
""getting ripped off" can not be measured, because it is completely subjective. there's no scientific/mathematical way to measure it and everyone can set the boundaries wherever they want."

and let's not forget that we don't have any real numbers about how much the X really costs to make. Some analysts even believe, that apple will actually have a smaller profit margin with the X.

https://9to5mac.com/2017/09/18/iphone-x-costs-profit/
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4107964-apple-margin-concerns

• iPhone X gross profit: $999 - $581 = $418
• iPhone X gross margin: 41.8%
• iPhone 7 gross profit: $650 - $248 = $402
• iPhone 7 gross margin: 61.8%

but in the end, noone but apple has the real numbers.

this leaves us with:
- we don't know which iphone is the most overpriced one, because we don't have the real component costs. and this does not even include development, patents, marketing, wages, shipping........

- there is no real way to measure "being ripped off", because there is no hard rule how to calculate it. is it a fixed number higher than the real cost of the device? or is it a percentage? where is the line? and who decides it?


-----> the point at which someone is being ripped off is subjective

The thing i am saying is that if the phone cost 581$ to make and you sell it for 999$ then you're ripping people off. if you don't think that, then you're just a straight moron.

 

[radioking]

If you want your iPhone to run as smooth as the iPad Pro, you have to turn on “reduce motion.” All the animations look so crappy on a 60hz screen once you’ve seen 120hz. I will not buy another iPhone until ProMotion is included.

 

[Channan]

You know that the Iphone X's OLED display is made by Samsung right? I guess you also know that samsung ditched LCD screens when they made the Galaxy S6 where the started using Oled and AMOLED Led's. AMOLED is OLED which is bendabled allowing the edge.

The iphone X is not expensive because of materials and components. It's because of the brand. The phone could be build and sold for half the price and still make a profit.

It lacks half the features that the newest samsung phones have and the screen is something that we had in 2015. It's not even full 1440p. So no. The screen is not that high tech. It's pretty old tech.

Wait, what? Are you saying Samsung stopped using LCD on their Galaxy S phones starting with the Galaxy S6? Because all Galaxy S phones (starting with the very first one in 2010) have had AMOLED screens.

Also, AMOLED doesn't mean bendable.

The thing i am saying is that if the phone cost 581$ to make and you sell it for 999$ then you're ripping people off. if you don't think that, then you're just a straight moron.

That would mean Apple is making about $400 profit. When you factor in R&D, warranty replacements, employee paychecks, rent for retail stores, cost to keep stores running, etc. it's not that bad.

 

[BalthazarTheGreat]

Hi all,

First and foremost, I’d like to make clear that this isn’t another iPhone X bashing topic.

Instead, I’d like to talk about something which seems to have been overlooked by a lot of people, and it’s actually the sole reason why I’ve decided not to upgrade to the iPhone X. I was very eager as I only recently had to give up my iPhone 5 due to the battery expanding, and so this was to be another long term investment for me.

However...there’s no ProMotion. Given that Apple are asking for £1,348 (256 GB including AppleCare) for the X, I was thoroughly disappointed and borderline angry that Apple has the audacity to sell a supposedly all new phone at such a high markup, but without this technology. Having recently bought the new iPad 10.5”, I feel that ProMotion makes the experience feel completely different and, when reverting to any iPhone, it instantly looks juddery and outdated. I often find myself avoiding my iPhone for this reason!

My question is this. To those who are technologically minded and understand the complications and/or implications of introducing ProMotion to the iPhone, is it likely to ever happen? Or rather, can it even happen? If the answer is no, how else can Apple match the experience of the iPad Pro’s refresh rate?

Finally, as a matter of curiosity, is the above a game changer for you? So far (from reading these forums), I seem to be the only one to base my decision not to upgrade on this issue, particularly when paired with the unjustifiable price hike.

Many thanks,

Kind regards,
Jack.

[doublepost=1555978976][/doublepost]Stainless steel is not the reason Apple omits ProMotion from the iPhone, 75% of all steel use in mass produced goods is of the 316L/ 316LVM which is “surgical grade’’ while it does add more cost per frame to manufacture the differences are negligible. The iPhone XR frame costs $19 dollars vs the XS Max which costs $24 dollars. The real reason is because OLED displays are still not energy efficient enough/ cost effective to mass produce in the tens of millions. Energy efficiency is an area apple takes extremely personal, and if they where to incorporate 120hz refresh rate into an Already $80 dollar display right now battery life would be cut by at least 35% which is massive.

 

[ksec]

My question is this. To those who are technologically minded and understand the complications and/or implications of introducing ProMotion to the iPhone, is it likely to ever happen? Or rather, can it even happen? If the answer is no, how else can Apple match the experience of the iPad Pro’s refresh rate?

Of course it will happen. It can, but it is a matter of when. Apple has 120hz input in place on the iPhone, but rendering the screen at double the frame rate ( Actual GPU Energy Usage ) along with Display Refresh Rate ( Actual Display / OLEDPanel energy usage ) will substantially increase the energy usage.

I think 7nm GPU along with likely some other Metal GUI composition ( iOS 13? ) should be perfectly capable to achieve similar energy usage, but the Display on the other hand is the big problem. Likely requires a few more iteration along with battery improvement to balance things out. Or wait till MicroLED ( but that is still years away from consumer product shipping )

I think they are going to remove the Taptic Engine which is taking quite a bit of valuable space and use those space for battery. Whether Apple Intend for those Energy capacity to improve the User Experience with ProMotion or offer longer battery life is up to debate.

All in All, it is possible, it is just trade offs that needs to be balanced out.

 

[Steve121178]

When 120hz OLED displays are mainstream on 5"-7" you may see it. It really doesn't matter on a phone though!

I'm more interested in micro-LED technology Apple is planning to use in future products as they could be far more energy efficient leading to a better battery life.

 

[spooklog]

Promotion is not just a higher refresh rate but a variable refresh rate. When there is motion on-screen, the refresh rate rises, up to 120Hz. When there is no motion it refreshes at a slower rate, thus saving power.

Promotion is literally why I bought the 10.5" Ipad Pro; I played with it for five minutes at Best Buy and couldn't believe the difference between it and my old Ipad Air.

I imagine Promotion would work brilliantly in iPhones, but I don't know enough about the way the tech is implemented to deduce why it isn't included in iPhone displays.

 

[squizzler]

The thing i am saying is that if the phone cost 581$ to make and you sell it for 999$ then you're ripping people off. if you don't think that, then you're just a straight moron.

You have no idea how businesses work. Apple not forcing anyone to buy their products and no one is entitled to an iPhone which a lot of people seem to think! Loads of different alternatives to iPhones. Stop moaning.

 

[Vanilla35]

Of course it will happen. It can, but it is a matter of when. Apple has 120hz input in place on the iPhone, but rendering the screen at double the frame rate ( Actual GPU Energy Usage ) along with Display Refresh Rate ( Actual Display / OLEDPanel energy usage ) will substantially increase the energy usage.

I think 7nm GPU along with likely some other Metal GUI composition ( iOS 13? ) should be perfectly capable to achieve similar energy usage, but the Display on the other hand is the big problem. Likely requires a few more iteration along with battery improvement to balance things out. Or wait till MicroLED ( but that is still years away from consumer product shipping )

I think they are going to remove the Taptic Engine which is taking quite a bit of valuable space and use those space for battery. Whether Apple Intend for those Energy capacity to improve the User Experience with ProMotion or offer longer battery life is up to debate.

All in All, it is possible, it is just trade offs that needs to be balanced out.

I read somewhere recently that the technology to bring pro motion down to small OLED screens is problematic right now. I don't think we'll see it for a while longer on the iPhone. They may even be on MicroLED at that point.
[doublepost=1556457466][/doublepost]

When 120hz OLED displays are mainstream on 5"-7" you may see it. It really doesn't matter on a phone though!

I'm more interested in micro-LED technology Apple is planning to use in future products as they could be far more energy efficient leading to a better battery life.

Those who have used the Razer phone talk about the fantastic user experience and responsiveness when being able to utilize the 120hz screen on that phone.

 

[ksec]

I read somewhere recently that the technology to bring pro motion down to small OLED screens is problematic right now. I don't think we'll see it for a while longer on the iPhone.

They are likely referring to the 120Hz WOLED used by LG. We already have small size 120Hz + OLED used in VR Headset. So it really isn't a technical problem, but a Cost, Quality, Power Usage problem.

This actually could be an opportunity, may be Apple could stick to LED LCD for XR ProMotion while the Top end gets OLED Pro Motion.

 

[Vanilla35]

They are likely referring to the 120Hz WOLED used by LG. We already have small size 120Hz + OLED used in VR Headset. So it really isn't a technical problem, but a Cost, Quality, Power Usage problem.

This actually could be an opportunity, may be Apple could stick to LED LCD for XR ProMotion while the Top end gets OLED Pro Motion.

Thanks for the info.

XR would never get pro motion. Regarding battery life, has there been testing with the iPad prior to Pro Motion and after?

 

[ksec]

Thanks for the info.

XR would never get pro motion. Regarding battery life, has there been testing with the iPad prior to Pro Motion and after?

Pro Motion don't have much battery impact on iPad simply because it is using LCD and not OLED. The difference would likely be negligible. ( Edit: I am talking about the Display Panel, not the whole system )

And I mean the successor of XR, whether that is next or next iPhone at $749 range. The Middle Tier of iPhone, not XR in itself.

 

[Vanilla35]

Pro Motion don't have much battery impact on iPad simply because it is using LCD and not OLED. The difference would likely be negligible. ( Edit: I am talking about the Display Panel, not the whole system )

And I mean the successor of XR, whether that is next or next iPhone at $749 range. The Middle Tier of iPhone, not XR in itself.

Then maybe they'll have to wait until iPhone's have micoLED before they put promotion in the devices.

 

[Hieveryone]

What is pro motion

I use the iPhone X and no issues right now. It’s working just fine.

 

[Jimmy James]

The thing i am saying is that if the phone cost 581$ to make and you sell it for 999$ then you're ripping people off. if you don't think that, then you're just a straight moron.

Great analysis. I’ll make you a similar proposal:

I need a personal chef. My family spends $1,000/month on food and household items, including the value we harvest from our garden. You can buy all the groceries, tend the garden, and prepare the food. I’ll pay you $1,400/month. You’ll be responsible for providing and maintaining the equipment and premises.

 

[Vanilla35]

What is pro motion

I use the iPhone X and no issues right now. It’s working just fine.

Makes the UI experience buttery smooth. Makes the existing phone seem slow and jaggity in comparison. All people will notice this when we get it. Currently the iPad has it.

120hz screen vs. 60hz in current iPhones.

 

[Hieveryone]

Makes the UI experience buttery smooth. Makes the existing phone seem slow and jaggity in comparison. All people will notice this when we get it. Currently the iPad has it.

120hz screen vs. 60hz in current iPhones.

Is there a video on YouTube or something that shows them side by side?

Extremely curious about this pro motion

 

[Vanilla35]

Is there a video on YouTube or something that shows them side by side?

Extremely curious about this pro motion

You might be able to find one on youtube. I'm at work and don't have time to search for you. The perceptive difference would be hard to come across via video though so not likely to be a good source for making a decision.

 

[ksec]

What is pro motion

I use the iPhone X and no issues right now. It’s working just fine.

As explained above, but that is the only thing you need to know. I strongly advise against trying it out in Apple Store, once you felt the difference, there is no going back. ( Pretty Much like Retain Screen ) And it will forever put the question in your head why do we not have this on (X) device.