Proton Encrypted Mail Desktop App Now Available for Mac

[madmin]

Null sentence.

As an ex Fastmail customer of 5 years and someone who architected country-scale mail infrastructure for ISPs, I can assure you that you're wrong on both counts.

I'll ask you why Fastmail haven't managed to produce a viable offline client yet and they literally just host a web app in their apps? Well it turns out that is because it's a really really hard problem to solve. And of course the solution to this is not solve it but to come up with a new post-application layer protocol with thousands more unknowns than the old one in the domain that they know about and can recruit for, which is basically JSON over HTTP.

I'm not even going to start on the downsides of JSON here like poor type encapsulation, lack of a rigorous schema definition, poor encoding support, type ambiguity, parsing cost etc...

Haha, every ISP email system I've ever seen has poor quality, so which one are you to blame for ?

Take another look at JMAP you seem to have missed the benefits over IMAP.

Fastmail have an excellent iOS/iPadOS/Android app which has all the functionality of their very nice web interface. Maybe it's been a long time since you used Fastmail ?

 

[AlmightyKang]

Haha, every ISP email system I've ever seen has poor quality, so which one are you to blame for ?

Take another look at JMAP you seem to have missed the benefits over IMAP.

Fastmail have an excellent iOS/iPadOS/Android app which has all the functionality of their very nice web interface. Maybe it's been a long time since you used Fastmail ?

Two large UK ISPs running huge Radius / Dovecot / postfix clusters with at least a 3 million users each.

I have actually taken the JMAP spec to pieces hence my specific comments about recurrence and my objection to using JSON and HTTP as a wire format.

Fastmail still doesn't even load when I'm on a plane. Unlike Apple Mail (and old outlook). This is a massive problem when you're in some backwater in central asia with no WiFi trying to get your electronic boarding passes sorted.

 

[cyberpunk_ber]

Note this is my domain of expertise.

Firstly, there is no end to end encryption at any of these companies. You have literally the client to server over TLS. The keys are not generated and stored securely on the client so there is no way you can even consider that they cannot read your messages.

Secondly, it's email, which has no security guarantees built in by default and no end to end encryption guarantee so you're screwed everywhere.

Thirdly, their security boundary is some loosely defined legal jurisdiction bullcrap.

As for vendor lock in, that's exactly what it is. They just want you to have one of their provided domains so it makes it difficult for you to leave. Same way ISPs (two large ones of which I've worked for in an architecture capacity) offer their own domains. It makes it very hard to leave.

proton does the crypto client side, and the code is opensource if you’d like to verify it.

source: my area of expertise

 

[AlmightyKang]

proton does the crypto client side, and the code is opensource if you’d like to verify it.

source: my area of expertise

You missed the point entirely.

What about when the messages arrive via SMTP over TLS? Assuming they use OpenSSL, they have to BIO_read it out of the stream into RAM (decrypted) and then shovel the message into persistent storage somewhere else, I assume encrypted by whatever private key you supposedly have on the client. Two questions:

1. Where does the key reside which writes it to persistent storage at rest when encrypted?

2. How did it get there only from the client?

Same with AWS's internal KMS operations. The service only offers partitioning of key and data and no guarantee that the key has not been distributed.

Ultimately you would have to control all the hardware from end to end to have secure email. And you don't even then because it arrives from someone else with no security guarantees.

The security claims are ********.

 

[pksv]

Electron based?

 

[pksv]

Sadly, it's just a bloated Electron wrapper around their website.

That's what I thought :/ Ram hog, no thanks

 

[madmin]

Two large UK ISPs running huge Radius / Dovecot / postfix clusters with at least a 3 million users each.

I have actually taken the JMAP spec to pieces hence my specific comments about recurrence and my objection to using JSON and HTTP as a wire format.

Fastmail still doesn't even load when I'm on a plane. Unlike Apple Mail (and old outlook). This is a massive problem when you're in some backwater in central asia with no WiFi trying to get your electronic boarding passes sorted.

You got me there, I don't use or require Fastmail on a plane. If I needed to write an email when offline I could use a notes app and copy-paste when ready to send.

Otherwise, you're basically saying that Google, Fastmail, Protonmail to name but a few don't know how to do mail as well as your good self. In which case haven't you got better things to do than post on a Macrumors ? I know I should be doing something else right now, so ciao and thanks for the interesting discussion.

 

[cyberpunk_ber]

You missed the point entirely.

What about when the messages arrive via SMTP over TLS? Assuming they use OpenSSL, they have to BIO_read it out of the stream into RAM (decrypted) and then shovel the message into persistent storage somewhere else, I assume encrypted by whatever private key you supposedly have on the client. Two questions:

1. Where does the key reside which writes it to persistent storage at rest?

2. How did it get there only from the client?

The security claims are ********.

Yep, that's how it works when you get a non-proton->proton mail.

Of course this is then readable by both proton and the sender, however before it is spooled to the user mailbox, it's encrypted with the users pub key (which they have, and you can share as it's not a secret) and then the unencrypted version is thrown away.

This is no more secure than a normal mail infra, they do not pretend otherwise.

However, after that process, e.g the long tail of mails in my inbox, the only person who can then read them is me -- and using client side crypto, the code for which is publicly available on their GitHub, and they also publish reasonable frequent pentest and code audit results.

It's not "totally" secure, but its definitely a step better than gmail.

 

[AlmightyKang]

Yep, that's how it works when you get a non-proton->proton mail.

Of course this is then readable by both proton and the sender, however before it is spooled to the user mailbox, it's encrypted with the users pub key (which they have, and you can share as it's not a secret) and then the unencrypted version is thrown away.

This is no more secure than a normal mail infra, they do not pretend otherwise.

However, after that process, e.g the long tail of mails in my inbox, the only person who can then read them is me -- and using client side crypto, the code for which is publicly available on their GitHub, and they also publish reasonable frequent pentest and code audit results.

It's not "totally" secure, but its definitely a step better than gmail.

This is exactly right which leads to my last point, I was hoping to make is that you can't rely on complex conditions for security decisions. They have to be absolute. Which means that you should probably never treat any data which has been exposed as private and by proxy should never have treated it as private in the first place.

Ergo finally if you want secure communications, do it via some other medium which has E2E. Hell WhatsApp is more secure than Proton...

Edit: final comment. All these services and protocol changes do not solve any fundamental problems which is email is broken and we probably shouldn't bother fixing it because getting the entire world to agree on how isn't going to happen. Treat it for what it is and use other tools where absolute secure communication is required.

 

[cyberpunk_ber]

This is exactly right which leads to my last point, I was hoping to make is that you can't rely on complex conditions for security decisions. They have to be absolute. Which means that you should probably never treat any data which has been exposed as private and by proxy should never have treated it as private in the first place.

Ergo finally if you want secure communications, do it via some other medium which has E2E. Hell WhatsApp is more secure than Proton...

It depends again on your case; a rogue proton employee can do a lot less damage than a Facebook one..

As a European I would strongly feel against trusting Meta (WhatsApp) over Proton.ch -- but yes exactly, for individual mails in transit it makes no difference. I don't really see why you're raging so hard against them, they never claimed to have some magic sauce for encrypting e.g your mails from onlyfans or whatever...

Since I pay for proton, I expect them not to mine my email (e.g like https://myaccount.google.com/purchases ) or show me ads, and if I'm wanting to pay *SOMEONE* for this, I'd rather it was a company with at least some skin in the game of caring about privacy/crypto -- if it comes out they used async crypto and gave a copy of the keys to GCHQ or whoever, then they'll be out of business immediately; no one cared at all when apple and google were outed by Snowden.

In $dayjob we deal with really sensitive data (nation state identity management stuff) and because of the US cloud act are not allowed to use quite a lot of various services (even AWS etc), again -- I vote with my money and don't wish to store my data anywhere close to these environments.

I do store some important (and secret) documents in proton-drive, which I do actually trust no one but me has had the keys to, instead of iCloud which is absolutely backdoored.

 

[cyberpunk_ber]

That's what I thought :/ Ram hog, no thanks

Electron apps have improved quite significantly in the last 3-4 years. I'm a purist too (C developer) -- But they're not really so bad anymore.

Mine's using ~60mb. I've got a 32GB Mac, and I think this is reasonable for a mail client.

:}

 

[pksv]

Electron apps have improved quite significantly in the last 3-4 years. I'm a purist too (C developer) -- But they're not really so bad anymore.


View attachment 2358982
Mine's using ~60mb. I've got a 32GB Mac, and I think this is reasonable for a mail client.

:}

That is not bad at all, thanks for sharing. May give it a shot.

 

[Regulus67]

I have been paying for a Proton account for some years now.
Here the discussion focuses on the mail client. But the subscription also includes Proton VPN.
Does that add to the e-mail security, if the user logs in via the VPN?

I use the VPN all the time, except for when I download updates or games, that are in double digit GB, or more.
The Proton VPN has never given me high download speeds. By disabling it, I reach 90 MB/s

 

[cyberpunk_ber]

I have been paying for a Proton account for some years now.
Here the discussion focuses on the mail client. But the subscription also includes Proton VPN.
Does that add to the e-mail security, if the user logs in via the VPN?

I use the VPN all the time, except for when I download updates or games, that are in double digit GB, or more.
The Proton VPN has never given me high download speeds. By disabling it, I reach 90 MB/s

Nah not really. It doesn’t make a difference.


It would only prevent your ISP (and maybe government) from seeing that you’re talking to protonmail; which likely isnt a problem for most of us.

 

[SpanishAppleNerd]

Prontonmail is getting better but I honestly think Fastmail is still the best and most powerful email system.

do you use it for work or for personal use?

 

[dsusanj]

Swiss-based privacy startup Proton today announced the availability of its end-to-end encrypted desktop mail app for macOS and Windows, with a Linux version in beta.

Startup? They have 100M+ users and have been around since 2013.

 

[cyberpunk_ber]

Startup? They have 100M+ users and have been around since 2013.

I guess they use the term because proton didn’t go for VC funding?

 

[teak421]

I use ProtonMail and the Proxy client on my Mac and I do love it. Now a fully featured email client, nice! If you haven't tried PM, give it a try, great stuff....

 

[Regulus67]

Nah not really. It doesn’t make a difference.


It would only prevent your ISP (and maybe government) from seeing that you’re talking to protonmail; which likely isnt a problem for most of us.

Thank you for the explanation.
So it is probably more useful to me than to most users. As Sweden has a law where it collects ALL the internet data crossing the border

 

[mashdots]

Electron apps have improved quite significantly in the last 3-4 years. I'm a purist too (C developer) -- But they're not really so bad anymore.


View attachment 2358982
Mine's using ~60mb. I've got a 32GB Mac, and I think this is reasonable for a mail client.

:}

honestly this is pretty great usage. I use apple mail on my computer for non-proton email and after a fresh boot it's already using 80+ mb.

 

[txscott]

I don't doubt that some people find value in Fast Mail and Proton, however, this discussion makes me appreciate iCloud mail. It has high availability, I find search better an more natural than outlook, it uses native clients on all of my devices and offers outstanding integration. Just one example of integration is the ability to auto enter 2FA codes received via email in Safari.

The only things I consider to be a downside are the inability to configure rules, and otherwise fully manage my email accounts without going to the web for some stuff. Spam/Junk filtering is minimally acceptable right now.

Those thing aside, at least for me as a full Appleverse user, the benefits of iCloud mail outweigh the pain points. Everything has pain points, you pick the ones you can live with.

 

[gk_brown]

It simply makes no sense to write three different desktop apps (macOS, Windows, Linux) when you already have a web app.

Completely disagree. Native apps still provide a better user experience (when written properly). When a native app is available, I almost always prefer it to a web app.

 

[XXPP]

Proton mail hates apple.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I honestly think Fastmail is still the best and most powerful email system.

100%

I’m more locked into Fastmail than I am anything Apple related (I’m being serious)

 

[vkd]

A free advertisement for a paid email provider. There are loads of free email providers out there. Proton has nothing to offer. Encryption? So what? Its not like you can't get it anywhere else, for free.