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In the U.S., for the EULA to be valid, there must be a meeting of the minds (i.e., at least the appearance of agreement). So if you don't like the EULA, the contract is void. Of course, then you don't get to keep the software...

This poster and that other guy with a simpson styled avatar are in for a rude awakening when they realise that German law isn't what they think it is.

And it's clearly indicated in the box and the license is available outside the box to be read before purchase. I doubt a company the size of Apple would establish themselves in a country without first understanding it's laws (with a couple of billion in the bank, what's a few thousand Deutschmark to get it explained to them).
 
In the U.S., for the EULA to be valid, there must be a meeting of the minds (i.e., at least the appearance of agreement). So if you don't like the EULA, the contract is void. Of course, then you don't get to keep the software...

Meeting of the minds, hehe, I remember my old law classes . . . ;)
 
In the U.S., for the EULA to be valid, there must be a meeting of the minds (i.e., at least the appearance of agreement). So if you don't like the EULA, the contract is void. Of course, then you don't get to keep the software...

If that "meeting of minds" takes place AFTER YOU PAY, the EULA should be VOID! Because at the time of purchase you didn't know the terms of that agreement! There's absolutely no other product or service where you're supposed to first pay and then find out the terms of the agreement... this is actually a form of fraud that somehow avoided regulatory scrutiny in most countries, but it's not too late for making some changes to these laws...
 
Someone shut Microsoft, HP, Dell, Gateway, Toshiba, Sony, and Compaq down?
:eek:

Well, I can run Windows on my mac, but by direct competition I meant what HP, Compaq, Sony, etc. does with Windows or Linus OS machines. I can't buy a perfectly fine machine for $300 and put Mac OS, just like I can with Linux. That's what I mean. And seems like I won't be for very long time. Apple's markup is so high.

No competition? Are you nuts?
No, I'm not nuts, but neither am I a blind Apple follower.
 
If that "meeting of minds" takes place AFTER YOU PAY, the EULA should be VOID! Because at the time of purchase you didn't know the terms of that agreement! There's absolutely no other product or service where you're supposed to first pay and then find out the terms of the agreement... this is actually a form of fraud that somehow avoided regulatory scrutiny in most countries, but it's not too late for making some changes to these laws...

And why did you ignore the box where it says "Use of this software is limited, you will need to read and agree to a license agreement before using"

Not to mention Apple has the license agreement available before purchase. Next time, do some research before you buy.

Well, I can run Windows on my mac, but by direct competition I meant what HP, Compaq, Sony, etc. does with Windows or Linus OS machines. I can't buy a perfectly fine machine for $300 and put Mac OS, just like I can with Linux. That's what I mean. And seems like I won't be for very long time. Apple's markup is so high.

And why wouldn't a Windows or Linux box be direct competition to Macs again ? HP sure thinks they compete directly with Sun for corporate accounts, even though they only have HP-UX and Sun has Solaris...

Maybe you mean to say that Macs can do much more things than PCs ? Like browse the web, read e-mail, write documents of all kind... ah nope, can't be that, Windows can do all that same stuff OS X can...

Ah I see, what you're trying to say is that you're trying to build a strawman argument where OS X is some kind of unique product that doesn't have any competition at all...

*BZZZZT*, sorry. Windows PC sold by Dell very much compete against Apple selling Macs. OS X is not a mass market OS, it's a bullet point on marketing material for Macs.
 
If that "meeting of minds" takes place AFTER YOU PAY, the EULA should be VOID! Because at the time of purchase you didn't know the terms of that agreement! There's absolutely no other product or service where you're supposed to first pay and then find out the terms of the agreement... this is actually a form of fraud that somehow avoided regulatory scrutiny in most countries, but it's not too late for making some changes to these laws...
I can read the EULA's of any Apple product as well as several from Microsoft (and I am sure other companies as well) without paying one red cent. I have to do a bit of research and go to a website that is listed on the product box, but I can read the licensing terms of tons of agreements without any purchase. Should I accidentally purchase the product, I can still return it unless I made the mistake of opening it (and even then, many companies have provisions for license rejections).

Apple's EULA's
Microsoft's EULAS (been online for years)
Adobe EULA's

Shall I go on? All of these companies specify that their products are licensed and tell you where to read them. Nothing cryptic here folks, just a bit of research.
 
With all this talk of entitlement and the failing morals of youth today maybe it's worth remembering that Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak started out by selling hardware designed to rip off the phone companies.

That being said, I don't think Psystar will be missed.
 
If that "meeting of minds" takes place AFTER YOU PAY, the EULA should be VOID! Because at the time of purchase you didn't know the terms of that agreement! There's absolutely no other product or service where you're supposed to first pay and then find out the terms of the agreement... this is actually a form of fraud that somehow avoided regulatory scrutiny in most countries, but it's not too late for making some changes to these laws...

Well, let's assume the EULA is void. In that case, there is no contract, and you can't have the software. That's how U.S. law works. It's no different than if I go to a store, and I put a can of peas in my basket without looking at the price. When I hear the price, if I don't agree to it, I can't keep the peas.

The difference you will cite is that I am already out of the store. But in the U.S. the contract would be formed at the point where I click the "agree" box or take other action that indicates my acceptance (such as installing the software). If I don't agree, I can always return the software to the seller (if the retailer won't take it, the manufacturer has to).

And stop saying "fraud." It's not fraud.
 
Just seen your edit, Solidworks is a reduced version of Catia, and as your link shows iphone on Solidworks, Solidworks is still Windows only. The big issue seems to be Apple's desire to stay with old gfx cards, while Windows gets the latest and greatest 3D hardware, which unlike normal use, CAD needs those big gfx cards. Get a complete car on a screen in 3D, render it and spin it around and whatever you have, you want more and faster.

Then perhaps they're using Windows software after all . . .
 
As a representative of the 20-somethings (24), I can at least explain partially for this view.

From an employers point of view, they want employees who will be lifers, since turn over is costly for them in training. But what's in it for an employee to stay at one company their whole life? So they can get laid off? Have their jobs shipped overseas?

Living through this difficult economic situation has only solidified this viewpoint, as most of us probably have had a tough time getting a job after graduating, or had a baby-boomer family member lose a job. Of course I think its ridiculous to think anyone is 'entitled' to a job after graduation, but growing up your entire life you are constantly told by parents, teachers, elders... that if you want to get anywhere and live comfortably, you need to get a college education. Then once you've earned the education/racked up the loans, *poof* no jobs. Obviously things will eventually turn around... just my 2 cents.

I don't know the ages of the people on here who are blasting the 20-somethings, but I'm 51, and I remember older generations saying similar things about us Baby Boomers when we were in our 20s: that we were lazy, self-centered, focused on the pleasure of the moment, consumed with a sense of entitlement, and so on. There was more than a little truth to that, and part of it just goes with youth and inexperience. Both of our teenage sons had a sense of entitlement, which drove my wife and me crazy at times. After a few years of their working in the Real World, though, that attitude has faded considerably. And I know I was pretty spoiled when I was in my early 20s.

A couple years ago, I wrote my master's thesis on the differences between the generations in the workplace. Baby Boomers entered a workplace in which they expected to have employment for life at a company if they worked hard and did a good job. In the 1980s, that model fell apart, what with downsizings, restructurings, mergers, buy-outs, and so on. It was corporate America that broke the implied social contract that had existed until that point. Generations X and Y saw their parents lose their jobs, and they realized that being loyal to a company wouldn't make the company loyal to you. So they learned to view their careers as a series of jobs at different companies, rather than climbing the ladder at one company. Unfortunately, many Baby Boomers, when they got into leadership positions, still operated under the model they were raised with: you need to pay your dues before you reap the rewards. Gen X/Yers, on the other hand, want to be rewarded for the value they bring to the company now, because they don't trust that the company will keep them around long enough to earn those promised rewards. Another difference is that Boomers expect employees to be in the office during set core hours, whereas Gen X/Yers feel they should be able to work whenever they want, as long as they get the work done. This leads to differing expectations and misunderstandings between the generations.

The few studies that have been done indicate that the core values of the different generations are the same, although styles and preferences are different. Every generation has slackers, and every generation has star performers. I'm a manager myself, and I've seen a cross-section of individuals. We've never had a problem finding talented, hard-working people in any age group. My older son, who is 25, is a trainer at a tech-support call center. He says they have a hard time finding enough high-quality people to staff the call center -- but the job pays only $10 per hour, which isn't going to attract talented people with college degrees.

I always like to pull out this quote that Plato attributed to Socrates, although its origin is disputed: "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in lace of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

The more things change, the more they stay the same...
 
All I see is Greed is Good. Long live Greed, best dam thing we ever made.

Can't afford a top line apple product, then learn to take money from others with what ever Greed based way you can, for some its higher education, with other is selling products that don't do anything, or maybe just scam it like so many do.

But if you want a free ride, there is non, in the end the free ride of the past are gone, Greed rules and that how it should be. Greed is truly the mother of inventions. Not everyone of course is greedy, haha, not everyone can have it all, or for that matter much of anything. :D

I was never referring about greed. What I was referring is that to build something with quality, be it an OS, a coomputer, a car, a song or a photo, takes money, time and a lot of effort. For you to want it for free, or for close to nothing, or for the same cheapness of the bad OS, computer, car, song or photo, is not a lack of greediness, it's a lack of respect for the hard work of the people that built that.
 
[...]

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

Thank you for a very informative post.

I don't think the Hackintosh community is driven by a sense of entitlement. It seems to be more of a "because I can" thing. The community mostly encourages hackintoshers to go out and buy OS X instead of pirating it. I happen to think the community is a benefit to Apple in the long run and most people recognize the moral right of Apple to protect their product from people trying to commercialize hackintoshes.
 
Thank you for a very informative post.

I don't think the Hackintosh community is driven by a sense of entitlement. It seems to be more of a "because I can" thing. The community mostly encourages hackintoshers to go out and buy OS X instead of pirating it. I happen to think the community is a benefit to Apple in the long run and most people recognize the moral right of Apple to protect their product from people trying to commercialize hackintoshes.

Maybe, but I can't count the number of posts that say things like "if apple would just give us a headless tower we wouldn't do it" and "apple is being arrogant by not giving us what we want."
 
From an employers point of view, they want employees who will be lifers, since turn over is costly for them in training. But what's in it for an employee to stay at one company their whole life? So they can get laid off? Have their jobs shipped overseas?

How backwards your thinking is. If you don't show any commitment to your employer (who, lets face it, has done you a favour by employing you so you can earn money) why in hell should they show you any commitment back?
 
YIPPEE!! :D

Ding dong, the greedy scum have gone!!
It's time to celebrate!!

Apple should also have been awarded every cent of profit that greedy Psystar ever made out of the products ... and the Psystar scum never allowed to run any business ever again. Of course, the so-called "justice" system is a joke and always wimps out with the "slap on the wrist with a wet paper towel" sentencing. :(
 
I always like to pull out this quote that Plato attributed to Socrates, although its origin is disputed: "The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in lace of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

+1 - I vote this the post of December 2009

Way to show us we really haven't learned from history and are making the very same mistakes again.
 
This is said. The end of something that could have been. Then end of something that needed to be.

Had Apple stepped up their game there would have been no market for Psystar to tap into.

Frankly after this computer goes I'm not sure what I'll be doing. The idea of giving Apple more money seemingly makes me sick, I don't want to bother building a hackintosh. I just don't care enough about it anymore.
 
Well, let's assume the EULA is void. In that case, there is no contract, and you can't have the software. That's how U.S. law works. It's no different than if I go to a store, and I put a can of peas in my basket without looking at the price. When I hear the price, if I don't agree to it, I can't keep the peas.
Once you BUY something, you OWN that "something"
Oh, and please don't tell me that software is licensed and not owned...

The difference you will cite is that I am already out of the store. But in the U.S. the contract would be formed at the point where I click the "agree" box or take other action that indicates my acceptance (such as installing the software). If I don't agree, I can always return the software to the seller (if the retailer won't take it, the manufacturer has to).

And stop saying "fraud." It's not fraud.
No, you can't always return the software to the seller (and even if it's possibile it might imply shipping or even travel expenses)
And as I said, there's huge problem with paying for something first and then agreeing to unknown terms... just imagine that you'd have to pay first a huge sum and then you'll have too agree to some arbitrary terms, for a banking sevice!
And there are other problems that reinforce the idea of fraud... for example many EULA's forbid even one backup copy and amost all of them prohibit reverse engineering, although the laws in both the US and the EU explicitely allow such things...


I can read the EULA's of any Apple product as well as several from Microsoft (and I am sure other companies as well) without paying one red cent. I have to do a bit of research and go to a website that is listed on the product box, but I can read the licensing terms of tons of agreements without any purchase. Should I accidentally purchase the product, I can still return it unless I made the mistake of opening it (and even then, many companies have provisions for license rejections).

Apple's EULA's
Microsoft's EULAS (been online for years)
Adobe EULA's

Shall I go on? All of these companies specify that their products are licensed and tell you where to read them. Nothing cryptic here folks, just a bit of research.
explain that to a 80 year old who makes a present to someone... and legally no one is expected to do any kind of research... everything should be settled where the transaction takes palce... that's how things work in just about any other situation that implies the purchase of a product or service...

And why did you ignore the box where it says "Use of this software is limited, you will need to read and agree to a license agreement before using"

Not to mention Apple has the license agreement available before purchase. Next time, do some research before you buy.
If you go to an apple store and buy an osx, I'm not sure things are the way you suggest they are.... that is, I have serious doubts that any apple store emplyee will ask you to read the EULA before you buy it!
Furthermore, you can buy it online and there's absolutely no mention of any license during the shopping process...
 
YIPPEE!! :D

Ding dong, the greedy scum have gone!!
It's time to celebrate!!

Apple should also have been awarded every cent of profit that greedy Psystar ever made out of the products ... and the Psystar scum never allowed to run any business ever again. Of course, the so-called "justice" system is a joke and always wimps out with the "slap on the wrist with a wet paper towel" sentencing. :(

Does their settlement agreement hold in light of the injunction? (Can't remember the terms of the agreement). If so, then the amount of the agreement was likely far above any profits they made (if any).
 
Once you BUY something, you OWN that "something"
Oh, and please don't tell me that software is licensed and not owned...


No, you can't always return the software to the seller (and even if it's possibile it might imply shipping or even travel expenses)
And as I said, there's huge problem with paying for something first and then agreeing to unknown terms... just imagine that you'd have to pay first a huge sum and then you'll have too agree to some arbitrary terms, for a banking sevice!
And there are other problems that reinforce the idea of fraud... for example many EULA's forbid even one backup copy and amost all of them prohibit reverse engineering, although the laws in both the US and the EU explicitely allow such things...



explain that to a 80 year old who makes a present to someone... and legally no one is expected to do any kind of research... everything should be settled where the transaction takes palce... that's how things work in just about any other situation that implies the purchase of a product or service...


If you go to an apple store and buy an osx, I'm not sure things are the way you suggest they are.... that is, I have serious doubts that any apple store emplyee will ask you to read the EULA before you buy it!
Furthermore, you can buy it online and there's absolutely no mention of any license during the shopping process...

First, you haven't "bought" anything other than the disk. And you can always return it to the manufacturer - they have to accept it, and they always do (so long as you didn't have an opportunity to review the license agreement before the transaction - if the license agreement is printed on the outside of the box, you are out of luck).

You keep talking about fraud. Fraud is making a false statement with the intention that it be relied upon to your benefit (or, sometimes, to the other party's detriment.) Where is the false statement?

As for your argument that "everything should be settled at the point of purchase," many things are not settled at the point of purchase. Ever buy a house? A car? Anything with a credit card? Anything on-line? Anything with a check? Did you ever hire someone to perform a service? (mow your lawn? fix your car?) All of these things result in contracts that require additional steps after the face-to-face transaction before they are "done."

Pretty much the only time that a contract is immediately executed is a face-to-face transaction for a good. So when you face-to-face by that dvd with the OS on it, you own the disk, but not the OS. You are entitled to use the OS if you accept the license agreement. Otherwise you have to return the disk and get your money back.
 
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