Put the "Pro" back into Macbook Pro

Discussion in 'MacBook Pro' started by freepomme, Nov 2, 2016.

  1. freepomme Suspended

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    #1
    It's been a long held sentiment that the Mac computer is not the computer you want to buy for gaming.

    When it comes to games being brought to the Mac, the titles released onto MacOS has always been sparse.

    Macs never have the latest, fastest and most powerful chips. Macs are known to be secure.

    What Apple needs to do is cater to that market. They need to cater to those power users. Out of their whole line of Mac computers, you mean they can't make one computer catered to power users?

    Even their most expensive iMacs would have trouble running the latest and greatest videogames that PC's usually could run without breaking a sweat.

    I remember buying a Mac laptop, buying all of these games and having to play them on the lowest settings to where the game basically looked like a Playstation 1 game. So I've seen what these Macs can't do.

    They're just never optimized to run any expansive games or programs. But plenty of people are looking for that in a Mac and those customers are walking away and people always say, "If you're trying to game, do not buy a Mac." Even the Apple geniuses that work at their store say that.

    That's what the sentiment is, that's what it's always been. So, what's wrong with making a Mac that could handle today's generation of games and applications? Is is because they don't want power users using their computers? Are they just scared that adding more powerful chips would result in bigger, heavier computers? Are they trying to build their own graphics technology?
     
  2. asleep macrumors 68040

    asleep

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  3. AceFernalld, Nov 2, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016

    AceFernalld macrumors 65816

    AceFernalld

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    #4
    It's still there though.

    The Polaris 460 puts out 1.86 Tflops with a 35W TDP. 10 hour battery life. Quad-core 45W i7 with 2133MHz LPDDR3 RAM. The fastest SSD on the market with incredible read/write speeds. Wide color display that already looks stunning on the 13". Loud and clear speakers. Touch Bar for getting to interact with the elements that benefit from multi-touch while keeping a tactile keyboard and massive trackpad for input. All the while, it's thinner, smaller, and half a pound lighter!

    It is expensive as all hell, but other than that what did you honestly want out of this upgrade?
     
  4. therealseebs macrumors 65816

    therealseebs

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    Apr 14, 2010
    #5
    This is a weird combination of nonsensical and insulting.

    The last "pro" MBP, from my point of view, was the last one that had Ethernet, Firewire, and user-upgradeable RAM and storage. When the Ethernet port got removed, I remember someone on these forums saying "I don't think most users need Ethernet, that seems more like a pro feature." Well, yeah. That's the point.

    This is a MacBook. It's not a Pro model. It omits things (like, say, the escape and function keys) that were present in previous models. Even connecting it to any existing device is going to require some kind of dongle or adapter, because it doesn't have any of those ports.

    If you wanna defend the machine as making reasonable design tradeoffs, go ahead, but is it really necessary to be smug and insulting about how much more-pro than other people you feel you are?

    EDIT: In response to "what else did you want":

    I wanted traditional USB 3.1 ports (at least 2, preferably 4), I wanted a headphone jack and also a microphone jack, I wanted a gigabit ethernet port, I wanted at least one thunderbolt port of the kind I already have cables and gizmos for, I wanted an HDMI port and a minidisplayport port. Ideally, I would like two thunderbolt/MDP ports, so I could use one for a thunderbolt dock and one for a display. I wanted a magsafe power connector, I wanted user-replaceable/upgradeable memory and storage, and I wanted a machine that could keep cool while being significantly quieter than my current rMBP, which would probably imply more heatsink.

    And that wouldn't be thinner or lighter, and that is 100% okay with me. If I wanted thinner and lighter, I wouldn't be looking at the Pro line, I'd be looking at the Air.
     
  5. AceFernalld macrumors 65816

    AceFernalld

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    #6
    Get a dongle if you want to stick to the ports of the past. They are on their way out. The future is wireless. As far as wired connections USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 does it all in one.
     
  6. jackoatmon macrumors 6502a

    jackoatmon

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    #7
    Yah I mean I deleted that because it was inflammatory, but I do think there's a (big) grain of truth in it.

    I haven't seen a single critique that doesn't boil down to "it's too expensive". I haven't seen a single person identify a single task this machine can't perform with absolute aplomb and efficiency. A concrete example of something a professional creator or businessperson might do that this thing can't do. Macbook pros have just never been really up to scuff until now for heavy lifting tasks like 4K video editing and 3D animation, etc.

    This is the first time Apple's made a laptop that doesn't look like a toy to my eyes. The 460 pro GPU just puts it over the top and into serious territory for me. Apple's always made beautiful and amazing laptops. now they've made their most beautiful and amazing laptop ever, and it's got some actual graphics power in it finally!
     
  7. therealseebs macrumors 65816

    therealseebs

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    #8
    If the future is wireless, why does the laptop have ports at all?

    And I think you may be overstating things a bit. Wireless is neat, but it is by no means a substitute for wires for a lot of purposes. If I'm streaming video, sure, wireless is probably fine. If I'm moving a lot of files? I think I'd like the factor of ten or twenty speed improvement from using actual Ethernet, thanks.
     
  8. sgript macrumors member

    sgript

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    #9
    And if you want to be wired, get an adapter. Most of the world needs to transfer to disk and until people actually get around trying how fast USB-C actually is, it's not going to make much sense.

    In a way, what someone said here on the forum hit the nail on the head. Apple got rid of many ports that some of us may never use, so selectively we can choose which ports we need rather than having those one or two ports sit there taking up space in the body.
     
  9. enzoshadow macrumors member

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    May 30, 2008
    #10
    There are so many self proclaimed "Pro" on this forum trying to define what every "Pro" user should be using. Just because rest of us doesn't need a laptop that does everything doesn't mean we don't have a job or use our laptop for work.

    You know what many of the "Pro" setup is like? Most have a decent power laptop AND a capable desktop to remote into instead of using a single laptop for everything. Many of the "Pro" also travel and drag around their laptop to different places for meetings. Many of the "Pro" even have Render Farm or Build Server instead of tied up their own laptop for rendering or building codes.

    Packing a fat ass laptop like Alienware with 1060 isn't useful for every pro, because most desktop and server will destroy it regardless. It sounds more and more like a lot of the complaining "Pro" are really just semi-pro who lack proper setup, because you guys want a laptop that do EVERYTHING. The new Macbook Pro is clearly defined regarding what it is at: A laptop. It is capable yet portable. That's why we have class like phone, tablet, laptop, desktop and server. If you want blur the line and having a hybrid machine, then maybe you should get your Microsoft gears already, because that's clearly what you are looking for.
     
  10. Mr.Blacky macrumors regular

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    Jul 31, 2016
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    Austria
    #11
    I don´t get it! :confused: Your headline says "putting the 'Pro' back", but in the text you´re only talking about gaming?
     
  11. maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

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    #12
    Nope and Apple's history is not to cater to that customer segment. I don't see how a pro machine is going to be good for gamers. I don't see the two converging.

    I think the MBP is a good pro machine, but you need to ask what professional?
    do you mean the photographer, DJ, someone who creates websites or the accountant that is creating spreadsheets.

    Is the accountant any less of a professional?

    I think we've bantered the work pro around when we should have defined how the MBP is a good (or not) fit for your needs. Generalizing across an obtuse statement (something I'm sure I've been guilty of) doesn't help define the discussion enough
     
  12. leman macrumors 604

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    Oct 14, 2008
    #13
    The 460 Pro in the 15" offers the same or better performance than the 960M, which makes it perfectly suitable for occasional gaming. Its literally the largest leap a MacBook ever had in the GPU department. It can reach 60fps in popular games at reasonable settings and with reasonable resolution.

    If gaming is your main priority though, there are certainly better products out there for that purpose. Which is perfectly fine. The MBP was always intended as a computer that combines balances top portability and high performance. Machines which aim to deliver higher graphical performance or other features must shift the balance equation by removing portability features. Which is again fine. For some reason many people here confuse the MBP with a mobile workstation/desktop replacement/gaming laptop. Thats not what this machine is designed to be.
     
  13. inhalexhale1 macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    The MBP is not a gaming machine, true, but Apple always uses some kind of "gaming" benchmark to show how great the next level performance is. I think if they choose to focus on better gaming performance as a feature, then people are free to speak to it's gaming performance relative to other laptops in its price range.
     
  14. ConnorMcJeebus macrumors regular

    ConnorMcJeebus

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    Mar 9, 2016
    #15
    I'm not doubting your statement, but are there any actual tests/benchmarks that can confirm this? I thought the performance of the dGPUs in the new 15 MBPs is up in the air until they're shipped(?).
     
  15. therealseebs macrumors 65816

    therealseebs

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    #16
    This is true!

    I think the point I'd get at is... I think the "pro" line should be the one that can meet everyone's needs, or at least, cover a lot of the high end things. I would like the "pro" macbook to cover enough functionality that no one is coming in saying "here's a PC laptop that has this feature I want, why can't I get it on a Mac".

    That's true. In which case, maybe they need a Mac Pro, and a plain old MacBook. :)

    Not everything. I am fine with the realization that it's not a replacement for a rack full of densely packed blade servers.

    If Windows were an acceptable replacement for OS X, I don't think there'd be a whole lot of Mac users. I am absolutely okay with paying a premium on hardware to get better software. I just want better hardware choices with more differentiation.
     
  16. leman macrumors 604

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    Oct 14, 2008
    #17
    No tests, but we can make some more or less educated guesses :) The AMD GPUs in question are Polaris 11, which is the same chip as the desktop RX 460. Now, the Polaris 11 chip has 16 'cores', and the RX 460 is a configuration of that chip with two of these disabled. The Pro 460 in the MacBook offers full 16 cores. The RX 460 offers 2.2 TFLOPS with 14 cores clocked at max 1.2Ghz. The mobile Pro 460 is quoted to offer 1.85 TFLOPS, which would put its max at somewhere around 900Mhz. Anyway, assuming that the figures are correct, its reasonable to estimate the performance of Pro 460 at around 80% or so of the desktop 460RX. And by looking at benchmarks, we can guess performance somewhere between the 960M and 965M.
     
  17. ConnorMcJeebus macrumors regular

    ConnorMcJeebus

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    #18
    Yea, I don't disagree but I also want to see it before I believe it. They might throttle it to lower heat and power consumption.
     
  18. dyn macrumors 68030

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    .nl
    #19
    I think that sums up most of the responses very well including yours. I find that a lot of people do not seem to be understanding what these new ports actually mean nor do they understand that computers are running into certain limitations (Intel dumped their "tick-tock" strategy, do a search why they did that and you might understand that there are limitations). It's just not as simple as a lot of people seem to be thinking. The problem is that ranting is far easier to do than actually thinking about it and looking into what it all means.

    And if you ask someone else they are going to give you a completely different definition of what a pro notebook is. There aren't that many companies around the world that would agree with your definition. For them the only upgradability there is, is a completely new machine. You configure one, buy it and use it for about 3 to 4 years. After that you repeat the circle. Upgrading is too finicky and thus too costly as it takes time. It's also a place where you are more likely to find docking stations (or similar) that already give you all those ports you miss. Claiming that all these companies are not professional is quite something. It's nonsensical and insulting.

    What's with all this egoism? Is it that difficult to have an open mind towards other people? Is it really necessary to respond emotional to all this? We are talking about something silly as a computer. No need for emotions here, just be rational. Nobody is dying or in distress. Just try to understand that your "pro" isn't everybody else's "pro".

    USB-C IS the traditional port for USB 3.1 and Thunderbolt.

    Then why on earth are you looking at a notebook for? They have never ever been about replaceability and upgradability. Desktops are far better suited for things like that.

    Don't underestimate weight of a computer. A notebook is something that you usually carry with you and most likely that will be among some other stuff. Since we are humans and not donkeys most of us appreciate it a lot if the entire weight of whatever we are lugging around is kept to a minimum. Our backs will be thankful to us too. Out of all the complaints about computers, "it's too heavy" is the one I've heard the most. The weight is just as important as the pro stuff.

    The biggest problem of all this isn't the fact that the MBP is pro or not nor what the definition of pro is. The problem is that any talk or discourse about the MBP is done purely based on emotion which leads to calling names, insults, putting words in other peoples mouths, egoism and so on. None of that is constructive and none of that makes the forum currently a nice place to be in. The only thing need changing is peoples attitude.

    Of course they will, that's how current day computers work. Previously they just shutdown.
     
  19. therealseebs macrumors 65816

    therealseebs

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    #20
    This paragraph doesn't add much information. If you'd articulated what you think the relevant limitations are, or what you think the new ports "actually mean", it would be possible to respond to this in a productive manner. As is, this paragraph does nothing but imply that anyone who doesn't already agree with you simply hasn't done enough research. But you didn't give anything concrete people could respond to if they have done research and are disagreeing with your positions for reasons other than incompetence on their part.

    And yet, every PC laptop I've ever seen lets you upgrade memory and hard drive.

    You're asking the wrong person, I think. I wasn't the one suggesting that other people's experiences couldn't be valid and saying that other people didn't count as professionals if they disagreed with me. I was the one saying maybe lots of people have different needs.

    It's not, but again, why not ask your questions of the person making insulting remarks, rather than the person pointing out that they were clearly personal insults?

    I guess I meant 3.0. It's been a long day.

    Well, that's the thing. I've been buying Mac laptops since the 1990s, and until a couple of years ago, they absolutely all allowed replacement of memory and storage, at a bare minimum. Heck, at least one Mac laptop allowed replacement/upgrade of the graphics hardware.

    I've been travelling with laptops, often more than one laptop, for something in excess of twenty years now, I think I have some idea of what it is like to carry laptops around.

    They are both things which may be important to some people. This is why Apple used to have two different laptop lines; the "MacBook Air" for people who needed lightweight more than anything else, and the "MacBook Pro" for the people who needed functionality even if it weighed something.

    Last time I had a laptop bag with associated gizmos in it, I think the bag was about 15 pounds. And a lot of that weight was dongles I needed only because the laptop didn't have all the ports I needed.

    It is awfully suspicious, then, that you're directing this comment to someone who's been relatively polite and has repeatedly stated specifically that other people's desires are reasonable things for someone to want and should be respected, rather than the person who was being hostile and dismissive of other people.

    If you want to improve civility, start by criticizing rudeness rather than criticizing people who disagree with you politely because of someone else's rudeness.
     
  20. nikhsub1 macrumors 68010

    nikhsub1

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    #21
    Exactly - I guess people just like to bitch and moan... Not having a 32GB RAM option? Sure I would have gone 32GB if it was available but I have not run out of memory yet with 16GB running multiple VMs. More ports? What do people really plug into their laptops that they are crying about ports? I sometimes use wired network for work, rarely but I'll get an adapter as I have no for my current machine. USB? Again, just get a simple adapter not a big deal. Same with a card reader - sure I use one every blue moon but hardly a lot. I dunno, none of these things are deal breakers to me.
     
  21. myscrnnm macrumors 65816

    myscrnnm

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    #22
    Apparently "power users" = gamers. Which I think is a silly market to cater to. As OP said him/herself, Macs are not known for being great gaming computers. Therefore it's not in Apple's interest to invest time and money to garner devotion from computer gamers. That being said, I don't see how the MacBook Pro (at least the 15" models) are not "pro" computers. No, they're not the fastest computers in the world, they don't have the most powerful GPUs, they don't have next-generation components, but that doesn't mean they aren't sufficient machines for professionals, be they developers, photographers, et cetera.

    People keep complaining about how the removal of ports basically makes this a "non-pro" device, but if anything, the four USB-C ports makes this a true professional computer. I don't think most people on this forum realize the potential of USB-C and how powerful it is. On a laptop, this is the chameleon of ports. It supports blazing fast transfer speeds via USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt 3, it can transfer power, it can be used to output high resolution video, it can do anything you want. Why have a device with a single one of each port that only does one thing when you can have four ports that can be adapted to complete whatever task the user needs it to? You can output to several monitors for stock trading, hook up a card reader to download high resolution RAW photos, et cetera.
     
  22. alex0002, Nov 3, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2016

    alex0002 macrumors 6502

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    #23
    I've still got one of those machines and to a certain extent I'd love to see built in gigabit ethernet on the new models. Having gigabit ethernet is important for some tasks, but now there are new ethernet standards coming at 2.5 Gb/s and 5 Gb/s speeds.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.5GBASE-T_and_5GBASE-T

    I'm sure there will soon be USB-C and Thunderbolt adaptors for these speeds.

    There are already some TB2 to 10 Gbe adaptors available at absurd prices, but with USB-C and TB3 becoming more mainstream and 2.5 Gbe and 5 Gbe standards supporting Cat 5e and Cat 6 cables, it might be time to let wired ethernet users select the adaptors that best meet their needs.
     
  23. Algus macrumors regular

    Algus

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    #24
    Heat and power consumption are the tradeoffs you make when going with a gaming computer. If you're so inclined you can go pick up some system from Sager, Alienware, or Razer. Will it run all your "professional apps" well? You bet. It'll also be heavier, generate more heat, and have garbage battery life. For me, a "professional" computer is a computer that doesn't have that: it's got all the parts to run business and professional apps, is easy to carry around, and can last a long amount of time without a charge.

    I don't expect Apple to ever use anything more than these energy efficient discrete cards. They'll do the work most creative types are looking for without torching the battery. Sure you can do the same work on your gaming rig (and probably even render faster!) but again that's going to add a lot of problems you already might not want.

    As to the ports argument, man I used to have these same arguments with people back in 1999 about the original iMac. I still think the same thing: everyone thinks their use case for a computer is how everyone else should use a computer. You know what I do when I think I'll need a port (video out, etc.) for work? I bring the damn cable with me. I never assume where I'm going will have the right connectors. I don't care what is on either end of the cable as long as it works. IMO the "you'll have to bring cables everywhere!" and "you'll have to buy all new cables!" thing is completely overblown. Again though, we all have problems assuming our use case is the same for every other user. So I am sure one of you will explain to me in exact detail why your life is ruined because you have to plug in an SD Card reader instead of just having the port.

    The new Pros provide superior performance to the other MacBooks and have adequate port selection for users who need multiple things at once. To me they are not misnamed.
     
  24. David58117 macrumors 65816

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    #25
    lol...is this post seriously complaining the rMBP isn't "Pro" because it can't play games well..?
     

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