Put the "Pro" back into Macbook Pro

[aevan]

What Apple needs to do is cater to that market. They need to cater to those power users. Out of their whole line of Mac computers, you mean they can't make one computer catered to power users?

You're in luck, because they can, and they did! Have you seen the latest MacBook Pros they just announced? These are probably the fastest laptops in the world right now because of the 3Gbps SSDs (no other laptop comes close), fastest quad-core i7s at the market currently (there isn't an i7 faster than the quad-core Skylake at the moment), the largest number of fastest ports on the market , and with one of the best looking screens on the market - with accurate colors and wide P3 color gamut. They are certainly made for power users and professionals. It's the only laptop I know of that has 4 (yes, 4!) Thunderbolt 3 ports, which makes them more universal, and more usable than any other laptop! They are possibly the only laptops that can drive 2 5K monitors at the same time, and 4 4K monitors at the same time! Boy, you sure are in luck - if anything can be called a computer for power users - this is it!

I'm not sure how you missed them, but here:
http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/

Glad to help!

 

[dyn]

This paragraph doesn't add much information. If you'd articulated what you think the relevant limitations are, or what you think the new ports "actually mean", it would be possible to respond to this in a productive manner. As is, this paragraph does nothing but imply that anyone who doesn't already agree with you simply hasn't done enough research.

The point of you doing homework is YOU doing the homework and not me spilling it out for you (or someone else). That's why there isn't much information, just some hints that should get you started with your homework (if I were to spill it out then it'd be called a paper). It's just discussion-basics: if you want to discuss something then you better know what it is you're discussing about (in this case things like USB-C, Thunderbolt and so on...hey...more hints!).

But you didn't give anything concrete people could respond to if they have done research and are disagreeing with your positions for reasons other than incompetence on their part.

People who have done their research don't need that information as they've already got it and if they would disagree then the discussion would be about very specific things. Although I highly doubt those people would disagree.

It is awfully suspicious, then, that you're directing this comment to someone who's been relatively polite and has repeatedly stated specifically that other people's desires are reasonable things for someone to want and should be respected, rather than the person who was being hostile and dismissive of other people.

What you wrote earlier is the exact opposite of what you are saying here. This post from you seems to be continuing that as everything you say is yet again all from only your own use case. This is exactly what the problem is and what triggered my response. Unfortunately you don't seem to be getting it as this post from you is yet again solely about you and you only. Take a good look at what you posted. To make things more clear I've highlighted them:

And yet, every PC laptop I've ever seen lets you upgrade memory and hard drive.

8<

Well, that's the thing. I've been buying Mac laptops since the 1990s, and until a couple of years ago, they absolutely all allowed replacement of memory and storage, at a bare minimum.

8<

I've been travelling with laptops, often more than one laptop, for something in excess of twenty years now, I think I have some idea of what it is like to carry laptops around.

8<

Last time I had a laptop bag with associated gizmos in it, I think the bag was about 15 pounds. And a lot of that weight was dongles I needed only because the laptop didn't have all the ports I needed.

Nearly everything starts with "I". As any sysadmin can tell you, there are many users and each has their own use case and their own definition of things like "pro", "heavy", etc. @enzoshadow is also pointing this out to you.

The way you are defining "pro" is your own definition only. Just because someone disagrees with you on your definition on "pro" and rightfully doubts that people on the internet really are who they say they are doesn't mean that they are "being smug and insulting". Your post also came off as yet another "look at how pro I am and everyone who isn't doing the same thing like me isn't pro!" which is exactly what you called "being smug and insulting".

In other words, your post comes off rather differently than you seem to have intended it.

There are already some TB2 to 10 Gbe adaptors available at absurd prices, but with USB-C and TB3 becoming more mainstream and 2.5 Gbe and 5 Gbe standards supporting Cat 5e and Cat 6 cables, it might be time to let wired ethernet users select the adaptors that best meet their needs.

That's because Thunderbolt 1 and 2 are basically just PCIe and DisplayPort. They didn't do ethernet so that required something that you call "adapter" but in reality is just a Thunderbolt device (it's basically a 10GbE PCIe card connected to a Thunderbolt chip). Thunderbolt 3 changes this as networking is incorporated into Thunderbolt just like USB3.1 Gen 2. That means that you actually have a 10GbE connection by default. The only caveat is that this is Thunderbolt only and p2p (connect computer to computer instead of using something like a switch which you can with normal 10GbE gear). As always they'll probably take the old 10GbE hardware and exchange the TB1/2 port for a TB3 one.

The prices are not "absurd", they are actually quite low or on par with other 10GbE networking gear. 10GbE networking is like any other high speed datatransfer system: it comes with a high price tag which will get lower over time when 10GbE becomes more common. Think about it, we used to pay these kind of prices for gigabit ethernet! 10GbE is expensive but not absurd (businesses can actually lower costs by using it).

 

[leman]

The last "pro" MBP, from my point of view, was the last one that had Ethernet, Firewire, and user-upgradeable RAM and storage.

Personally, for my professional needs I prefer the new models, which are significantly lighter, significantly faster and even have a better battery life — which enables me to work much more flexibly. For the rare cases I need ethernet, a dongle is more then fine. Expandable RAM is pointless if the machine already come with max possible RAM from the start. Firewire? Are you joking? You get 4 ports that support daisy-chainable 40GB/s, thats what 50 times faster than firewire?

When the Ethernet port got removed, I remember someone on these forums saying "I don't think most users need Ethernet, that seems more like a pro feature." Well, yeah. That's the point.

You know, the more I read about all this 'pro' stuff, the more confused I get. For some people, apparently 'pro' means having a fast gaming graphics card. For others, it means having situational ports. For me, 'pro' means having a machine that allows me to do my work without annoyances or distractions. Apple's vision of the MBP fits that purpose perfectly. Apple's goal is to provide mobile performance, and the 15" MBP is among the fastest (if not the fastest) laptops on the market that offer that mobility and flexibility (you will find that the competitors usually have 30% or less battery life or suffer from other limitations). And that covers the needs of a vast majority of users. If you are someone who wants a gaming laptop or a powerful semi-mobile workstation, stop looking at Apple. They don't make this kind of product. Please stop projecting your own subjective idea of what a 'pro' machine means on someone else vision. 'Pro' is not a clearly defined term. Its just a word. If Apple doesn't make a laptop that you need — and they don't cater to gamers or niche users — there are enough companies that do.

 

[crassapple]

It's been a long held sentiment that the Mac computer is not the computer you want to buy for gaming.

When it comes to games being brought to the Mac, the titles released onto MacOS has always been sparse.

Macs never have the latest, fastest and most powerful chips. Macs are known to be secure.

What Apple needs to do is cater to that market. They need to cater to those power users. Out of their whole line of Mac computers, you mean they can't make one computer catered to power users?

Even their most expensive iMacs would have trouble running the latest and greatest videogames that PC's usually could run without breaking a sweat.

I remember buying a Mac laptop, buying all of these games and having to play them on the lowest settings to where the game basically looked like a Playstation 1 game. So I've seen what these Macs can't do.

They're just never optimized to run any expansive games or programs. But plenty of people are looking for that in a Mac and those customers are walking away and people always say, "If you're trying to game, do not buy a Mac." Even the Apple geniuses that work at their store say that.

That's what the sentiment is, that's what it's always been. So, what's wrong with making a Mac that could handle today's generation of games and applications? Is is because they don't want power users using their computers? Are they just scared that adding more powerful chips would result in bigger, heavier computers? Are they trying to build their own graphics technology?

I don't think playing games falls under the "pro" category. If that's what you want to do, get a nintendo, playstation or whatever.

 

[idunn]

The last "pro" MBP, from my point of view, was the last one that had Ethernet, Firewire, and user-upgradeable RAM and storage. When the Ethernet port got removed, I remember someone on these forums saying "I don't think most users need Ethernet, that seems more like a pro feature." Well, yeah. That's the point.

This is a MacBook. It's not a Pro model. It omits things (like, say, the escape and function keys) that were present in previous models. Even connecting it to any existing device is going to require some kind of dongle or adapter, because it doesn't have any of those ports.

If you wanna defend the machine as making reasonable design tradeoffs, go ahead, but is it really necessary to be smug and insulting about how much more-pro than other people you feel you are?

EDIT: In response to "what else did you want":

I wanted traditional USB 3.1 ports (at least 2, preferably 4), I wanted a headphone jack and also a microphone jack, I wanted a gigabit ethernet port, I wanted at least one thunderbolt port of the kind I already have cables and gizmos for, I wanted an HDMI port and a minidisplayport port. Ideally, I would like two thunderbolt/MDP ports, so I could use one for a thunderbolt dock and one for a display. I wanted a magsafe power connector, I wanted user-replaceable/upgradeable memory and storage, and I wanted a machine that could keep cool while being significantly quieter than my current rMBP, which would probably imply more heatsink.

And that wouldn't be thinner or lighter, and that is 100% okay with me. If I wanted thinner and lighter, I wouldn't be looking at the Pro line, I'd be looking at the Air.

More than a few others likely largely agree with this and would wish as much.

 

[aevan]

You know, the more I read about all this 'pro' stuff, the more confused I get. For some people, apparently 'pro' means having a fast gaming graphics card. For others, it means having situational ports. For me, 'pro' means having a machine that allows me to do my work without annoyances or distractions.

If I want to be rude, I'd say that for some people here, "pro" also means "something I can afford." But you're right, a lot of people have their own views of 'pro' machines. And it's clear that this is all part of a bigger problem people have with Apple. However, that doesn't mean those people are right and that they are the ones to determine the professional status of gear and usage.

In reality - there isn't such a thing as a "pro" device. Devices cannot be professionals, people can. And people use various tools for various jobs. There are certain professions, very demanding too, that favor mobility over performance, for example. Others require performance that is beyond any mobile device. Some require very specialized hardware, others require a pencil and a sheet of paper.

What most people here mean by "pro" here is "to have everything I want it to have". In a way, this is self-flattering, because we all assume that our needs are the ones that define what is pro. I could argue that if some fashion designer needed their computer to match the color of their latest collection because it is an element of the image they are building as part of their profession, the color of the computer becomes a "pro requirement". Imagine a couple of fashion designers criticizing the latest MacBook Pros because they don't come in gold color It may seem funny, but in reality, this can be as good an argument as the lack of 32Gb RAM for some.

In reality - Apple made a computer they consider to be the answer for a lot of people who need a good laptop. Like any piece of equipment it is not for everyone. But it's easy for people with different grievances to unite against a product. There are a lot of posts here that claim Microsoft is the one who is making professional computers now with the Surface line. I would agree that Surface computers can be used by many pros, and that some may prefer them to anything else. But no one is criticizing the Surface Pros and Books of having only dual-core CPUs and also being limited to 16Gb RAM. Others claim that Razor computers are true pro devices because they have great GPUs - but no one is criticizing them for having short battery life. Everyone mostly agrees that they don't need thinner (meaning: lighter) laptops, and yet everyone seems to have a problem with carrying a few adapters in the bag.

As you noticed, the criticism of the new MBPs is contradictory at best and just ignorant at worst. Reality is - The new MacBook Pro is a fantastic feat of engineering that may not serve some people's needs, but will perfectly suit others. It is not a computer for every profession, but it is a computer for a lot of professions. And a great one, too. If anything, that gives it the right to be called a 'pro device'. Whether this is a pro device suitable for a specific person, that's a different question. Some professionals can't use it in their work, but that doesn't mean the device itself is not 'pro'. The same way, say, a violin or a piano is a pro "device", even if I can't use it for my work. At all.

What I find arrogant is the fact that some people think their needs are, somehow, objective measurements of quality.

 

[therealseebs]

You know, the more I read about all this 'pro' stuff, the more confused I get. For some people, apparently 'pro' means having a fast gaming graphics card. For others, it means having situational ports. For me, 'pro' means having a machine that allows me to do my work without annoyances or distractions.

For me, having those "situational" ports is a pretty significant contribution to "without annoyances or distractions".

So, off the top of my head, here's the "annoyances or distractions" I expect from the 2016 MBP:

• No built-in Ethernet port. Need a dongle.
• No function key row/escape key. (No, I don't consider a touch screen a suitable replacement. If I wanted to type on a screen instead of on keys, I'd be typing on an ipad.)
• Every single device I have available with my current Mac will need some kind of dongle or adapter to work with the new one, or can't be made to work with it at all.
• I haven't actually found a DisplayPort adapter as such for it, although some docks have one.
• Not a single dock on the market today (as opposed to announced) that can charge it at full capacity.
• Lose one of my data ports if I use it with the charger.
• No magsafe.
• No key travel.
• No upgrade for RAM or SSD in a year or two.

The ways in which this improves on the previous-gen machines, for my purposes:

• Faster CPU.
• Faster GPU.

That's basically it. The touch bar thing would be neat if it were in addition to the function keys. Apart from that... This machine is basically made of distractions and annoyances. Keyboard, ports, power supply, every aspect of this machine except the CPU and GPU is going to cause me annoyances and distractions. If my shiny new machine showed up tomorrow, you know what I couldn't do? Use it the way I use my current machine, because while I've found adapters for many things, I haven't actually figured out what to do for the connection to my monitor. I can sort of handwave some of the things by using the TB3->TB2 adapter, and that'll get me ethernet and USB ports that work with existing hardware, so that's something. But I haven't got anything for the display yet, because I was trying to find a dock that would work, and none of the ones which might work out actually exist yet.

 

[leman]

For me, having those "situational" ports is a pretty significant contribution to "without annoyances or distractions".

And that is a very reasonable criticism, which I most certainly can respect. It is unfortunately true that the USB-C ecosystem is fairly immature at this point and that this can be very annoying for people who have an existing hardware setup they can connect to. However, I am sure that within few months the situation will change as more and more USB-C is coming to the market.

My connective needs in the office are pretty much covered by a single dock, so for me — even at this point — USB-C is a definitive improvement (I only need to connect a single cable instead of 4 I currently use on my 2015 MBP).

I haven't actually found a DisplayPort adapter as such for it, although some docks have one.

I've seen one from ARP and one from Club3D. No idea how well they work though.

 

[maratus]

The only real Pro laptop Apple ever made was the original retina MBP 13" and 15". Then the controversial 2016 refresh. The rest were just average grade laptops with ordinary features, somewhat heavy and with subpar screens and cooling system design and best trackpad in the world... User replaceable RAM, SSD or Ethernet port doesn't make a computer a Pro machine.

 

[wheelhot]

Apple decision on GPU just makes its platform a no go for 3D related stuffs, AR or VR development (arguably 2 of the upcoming hot tech), making it already look dated in comparison to what the competition is doing at the same or similar notebook thickness. It's not 2012 anymore where notebooks with powerful GPU is 2 inch thick

 

[aevan]

Apple decision on GPU just makes its platform a no go for 3D related stuffs, AR or VR development (arguably 2 of the upcoming hot tech), making it already look dated in comparison to what the competition is doing at the same or similar notebook thickness. It's not 2012 anymore where notebooks with powerful GPU is 2 inch thick

What other laptop has this battery life and a better GPU? The only ones who have those "AR or VR" GPUs you mention have really low battery life and weigh more.

 

[wheelhot]

What other laptop has this battery life and a better GPU? The only ones who have those "AR or VR" GPUs you mention have really low battery life and weigh more.

They can always make the top spec or BTO at the very least. Not everyone needs 10 hours battery life and it weighs more but probably as heavy as previous gen rMBP, definitely not as heavy as 2012 gaming notebooks if that's what you're thinking

 

[SreckoM]

Exactly - I guess people just like to bitch and moan... Not having a 32GB RAM option? Sure I would have gone 32GB if it was available but I have not run out of memory yet with 16GB running multiple VMs. More ports? What do people really plug into their laptops that they are crying about ports? I sometimes use wired network for work, rarely but I'll get an adapter as I have no for my current machine. USB? Again, just get a simple adapter not a big deal. Same with a card reader - sure I use one every blue moon but hardly a lot. I dunno, none of these things are deal breakers to me.

This is exactly where problem lies, in front of your nose. All that you said is missing and we really do not need, I would understand and accept as valid ... if I do not need to pay 3000 EUR for it... That is is whole point and why people are bitching. I am paying 3000 Eur for mediocre specs, and yes, they are if you compare what is trend nowadays. Only thing that worth is screen but even that is not Apple only feature anymore. There are bunch of amazing screens, including touch, 4k, on PC laptops for less $. AMD GPU even with 4GB is mid level card, so all of 2d artist that work with high res are unhappy, not to talk about us, 3D artist. Compare it with Nvidia 1060, that is going in smaller PC laptops. Point with Apple users is that they usually stick to Apple and what Apple give the is great for them, because they did not try anything better. And usual response is wow this is 3x better than my mbp from 2013 ... imagine. So, yeah, people have all right to bitch about price. I would fully agree with you on anything if this laptop is much lower price. Right now I would rather buy something much cheaper same specs and rest of my money spend on better things than Apple greed.

 

[maflynn]

A couple of thoughts on this topic.
First we hear how the term Pro is just a marketing term, heck, I've said as much over the years but that doesn't belie the notion that people think its a pro machine. That is they're buying a product that they expect to have more features or abilities because it states its a pro machine. Whether they're a professional in any sense of the word is immaterial, the fact remains they opted for the MacBook Pro because they felt it would have more of what they need over the non pro laptops being offered by apple.

The problem that people are griping, is because with that perspective they are not getting more in some ways.
Less battery, less ports, less keyboard (matter of preference I know).

I realize many people like what apple did, but I think the hue and crying occurring on the interweb is because people expected more pricesely because of the pro moniker, regardless if Apple slapped that word on it, as a marketing strategy.

 

[wheelhot]

A couple of thoughts on this topic.
First we hear how the term Pro is just a marketing term, heck, I've said as much over the years but that doesn't belie the notion that people think its a pro machine. That is they're buying a product that they expect to have more features or abilities because it states its a pro machine. Whether they're a professional in any sense of the word is immaterial, the fact remains they opted for the MacBook Pro because they felt it would have more of what they need over the non pro laptops being offered by apple.

The problem that people are griping, is because with that perspective they are not getting more in some ways.
Less battery, less ports, less keyboard (matter of preference I know).

I realize many people like what apple did, but I think the hue and crying occurring on the interweb is because people expected more pricesely because of the pro moniker, regardless if Apple slapped that word on it, as a marketing strategy.

I guess the issue is a few things
1. The MBP hasn't been updated for over a year and many ppl are ready to pour money at Apple, only to be surprised that the price has increased considerably
2. The move to USB-C is expected but not giving at least 1 Type A to Type C adapter is silly, especially when you've spend so much on a laptop, what's the price increase for? Especially for the non touch bar model
3. And since the price has increased, there's an expectation of what more are we getting and hardware spec wise, it's not looking good, especially now the competition is able to produce better spec and similar build quality at a similar price point.

So in conclusion, people don't see the reason why there's a price hike and it gives the perception that Apple is just greedy and want more margins then before.

 

[leman]

That is they're buying a product that they expect to have more features or abilities because it states its a pro machine. Whether they're a professional in any sense of the word is immaterial, the fact remains they opted for the MacBook Pro because they felt it would have more of what they need over the non pro laptops being offered by apple.

Shouldn't adult people be smarter than that though? Its not like Apple is withholding information about the machine's spec . Just some basic information gathering before such a significant purchase makes it very clear what the capabilities of this laptop are and whether its suitable to one's needs.

Its kind of like buying a Tesla because the company stated "the new Tesla has the biggest trunk out of all Teslas yet!" and then complain because one has expected a truck.

 

[maflynn]

Shouldn't adult people be smarter than that though?

I think you missed the point I was trying to make.

Let me rephrase what I was trying to convey. Because apple uses the word professional as a product that has superior features then its other lines, there is an expectation that it actually have features that are absent in the non-pro MacBooks. I'm not saying that people are buying the MBP and then finding out its missing features they want, but rather they're upset at hearing its missing the SD slot, or the HDMI, or the magsafe connector.

Apple isn't hiding those facts, but they're marketing the laptop in a such a way people's expectations are high and they're no delivering imo.

So in conclusion, people don't see the reason why there's a price hike and it gives the perception that Apple is just greedy and want more margins then before.

Agreed, but I think removing the old USB ports can be explained as that's what Apple does. The pain is mostly for early adopters is temporary. I'm not making excuses just pointing out, Apple has done this before. Losing HDMI, SD, Magsafe however is different. These are current ports/connectors that server a purpose.

I also agree on the price increase, and what you get (compared to the prior years model)

 

[therealseebs]

Shouldn't adult people be smarter than that though? Its not like Apple is withholding information about the machine's spec . Just some basic information gathering before such a significant purchase makes it very clear what the capabilities of this laptop are and whether its suitable to one's needs.

Its kind of like buying a Tesla because the company stated "the new Tesla has the biggest trunk out of all Teslas yet!" and then complain because one has expected a truck.

If the company stated a thing which was misleading, though, you'd normally be mad at the company for being misleading, not the users for being suckered by a company that they thought was more truthful.

Anyway, I think it might be useful to get away from the terminology argument by reframing it: Is there a market for the higher-end machine with more parts, even if it's a little heavier? There obviously is. If they called it something other than "pro", so we didn't have to have these arguments, would people still be outraged at the suggestion that maybe some users want those extra features?

 

[dyn]

• No built-in Ethernet port. Need a dongle.

There are 4 built-in ethernet ports that are capable of 10GbE. What you mean here is that it doesn't have an ethernet port where you can plug in a more common RJ-45 connector. There is no dongle for that, those are actually external network interface cards (NICs).

• Every single device I have available with my current Mac will need some kind of dongle or adapter to work with the new one, or can't be made to work with it at all.

Or just an ordinary USB cable with a USB-C connector.

• Lose one of my data ports if I use it with the charger.

Not necessarily as the ports can carry both data and power. If you only connect power then yes, you are not using it for data. Previously the story is a lot more complex because you had specific ports: USB ports that you could only use for USB and you had 2 of them so you could only connect 2 USB devices. Now it's either 3 or 4 depending if you use one port solely for power or not. The same applies to Thunderbolt. So those with lots of Thunderbolt devices now gain ports and those with lots of USB devices gain ports.

• No magsafe.

Mind you that MagSafe was only for power. All the other cables do not disconnect when you trip over them. A lot of people connect an ethernet cable to the machine which leaves the MagSafe connection useless because the ethernet cable will drag the notebook to the ground regardless.

• Faster CPU.
• Faster GPU.

There isn't that much difference in CPU power, the biggest improvement is going to be the GPU and even that isn't all that much. What notebook are you using currently?

If my shiny new machine showed up tomorrow, you know what I couldn't do? Use it the way I use my current machine, because while I've found adapters for many things, I haven't actually figured out what to do for the connection to my monitor.

There is very little need to upgrade to a new computer nowadays. The differences are very small so best is to only upgrade when the old machine is dying or when the difference really is big. People seem to fail to understand that the progress we used to make in the 90s is loooooooong gone. More than likely this is going to get worse the next few years and it will affect ALL manufacturers. From what I've seen I don't think this is much of an issue though.

But I haven't got anything for the display yet, because I was trying to find a dock that would work, and none of the ones which might work out actually exist yet.

Which docks have you been looking at?

Apple decision on GPU just makes its platform a no go for 3D related stuffs, AR or VR development (arguably 2 of the upcoming hot tech), making it already look dated in comparison to what the competition is doing at the same or similar notebook thickness. It's not 2012 anymore where notebooks with powerful GPU is 2 inch thick

It's absurd we need the highest end hardware for things like AR and VR considering the fact that both have been here for years. AR is something that the iPhone 3g could do and VR has been here since the 90s. The fact that you need the highest end of hardware shows that none of the applications is anywhere near ready, let alone beta. The VR lab that was part of a former employer used 10 year old hardware and they didn't have any issues whatsoever. They have now switched to something like the Microsoft Surface Pro and Lenovo Yoga.

VR is not going to take off because of the way the human body works. They need to reinvent the human body's balancing system because if they don't most people will still get sick (most people are car/sea sick).

Anyway, I think it might be useful to get away from the terminology argument by reframing it: Is there a market for the higher-end machine with more parts, even if it's a little heavier? There obviously is

And the next question would be: is it profitable or will you only lose money? The Apple Watch Edition has shown that there is indeed a market for a $17k golden Apple Watch that is exactly the same as the cheapest version in terms of design and functionality. This watch has also shown that this market is extremely small and not profitable at all so Apple axed it. They did the same with most of their enterprise hardware with the exception of the Mac Pro and the notebooks. The many projects at Kickstarter that were canceled because they didn't meet their goal also reflect this (they did get quite a lot of money but they failed to meet their goal).

If they called it something other than "pro", so we didn't have to have these arguments, would people still be outraged at the suggestion that maybe some users want those extra features?

They could have called it whatever they want but we would have still had the very same "discussion" with the same arguments. Maybe even worse because now Apple didn't have any notebook that is "pro" because none has the "pro" moniker in their name. Until people start to understand how the IT industry works, what these new standards allow you to do and to look further than today we'll be stick with these kind of futile "discussions". There is a huge lack of imagination. I find that really disturbing.