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iPad Pro PWM Confirmed - 2024 IPP - OLED - Keep those 2018 12.9 IPP’s 🤬
- Thread starter Maven1975
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Extended use of 13” and 11” are certainly contributing to dry eye. Not as bad as the mini-LED 12.9” did though. Still waiting for PWM #s for the M4 Pros and M2 Airs from a site like Notebookcheck. Planning to return my 11” today and order either a 13” Pro or 13” Air. The latter if it’s proven that PWM isn’t an issue. The former if they both have PWM. I’ll just have to limit use.
Edit: Notebookcheck just reviewed the 11" iPad Air and found no PWM. I'm assuming (hoping) that the 13" uses the same tech and also has no PWM. Just ordered one in Starlight. Shame they had no silver option to match the rest of my Mac stuff.
www.notebookcheck.com
Edit: Notebookcheck just reviewed the 11" iPad Air and found no PWM. I'm assuming (hoping) that the 13" uses the same tech and also has no PWM. Just ordered one in Starlight. Shame they had no silver option to match the rest of my Mac stuff.
Test Apple iPad Air 11 (2024) Gen 6 - Das kraftvolle Apple-Tablet mit dem Identitätsproblem
Das Apple iPad Air 6 setzt auf den M2-Chip von Apple und ist nun in zwei Größen (11 Zoll und 13 Zoll) erhältlich. Ob sich ein Kauf des Apple-Tablet lohnt, lesen Sie im Testbericht von Notebookcheck.
www.notebookcheck.com
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With the Air from 4th gen to 6th gen. PWM is not the Topic, the Topic will be Temporal Dithering which leads to Eye Strain, Nausea and Dizziness in some People, so i hope, that you will have fun with the new iPad Air.
Now where i send back the IPP M4 i miss it totally...
Now where i send back the IPP M4 i miss it totally...
Hopefully the readings are accurate.Extended use of 13” and 11” are certainly contributing to dry eye. Not as bad as the mini-LED 12.9” did though. Still waiting for PWM #s for the M4 Pros and M2 Airs from a site like Notebookcheck. Planning to return my 11” today and order either a 13” Pro or 13” Air. The latter if it’s proven that PWM isn’t an issue. The former if they both have PWM. I’ll just have to limit use.
Edit: Notebookcheck just reviewed the 11" iPad Air and found no PWM. I'm assuming (hoping) that the 13" uses the same tech and also has no PWM. Just ordered one in Starlight. Shame they had no silver option to match the rest of my Mac stuff.
Test Apple iPad Air 11 (2024) Gen 6 - Das kraftvolle Apple-Tablet mit dem Identitätsproblem
Das Apple iPad Air 6 setzt auf den M2-Chip von Apple und ist nun in zwei Größen (11 Zoll und 13 Zoll) erhältlich. Ob sich ein Kauf des Apple-Tablet lohnt, lesen Sie im Testbericht von Notebookcheck.
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Some serious PWM in Pro 11.
www.notebookcheck.com
Test Apple iPad Pro 11 2024 Tablet – Leichter, dünner, pfeilschnell
Seit Jahren können sich Kreative und Entertainment-Fans auf dem iPad Pro austoben, nun spendiert Apple ein Update: Das 11-Zoll-Modell wird schlanker, soll mehr Laufzeit und Leistung bieten und als Display-Technologie kommt nun OLED zum Einsatz. Wir nehmen die Neuerungen unter die Lupe.
www.notebookcheck.com
A really shame but to be expected. Can't say I'm enthusiastic about the trend of all panels moving to OLED. I do think they look incredible but unfortunately they exacerbate my dry eye. English version of the M2 Air review was uploaded. Doesn't appear that temporal dithering was tested.
I'll just have to try it out for myself. Two weeks to return it if it fries my eyes. 😅
I'll just have to try it out for myself. Two weeks to return it if it fries my eyes. 😅
The Notebook Check Statetment of 240 Hz PWM suprises me, i read often in the last Days on russian and chinese Websites that it should be 480 Hz. So i ask myself, if the reason could be the different Panels, because i read in the Web that in the first Time Samsung and LG produced Panels for the 11 inch.
Some Weeks ago i buyed here in Germany a Samsung GalaxyTab S9 with OLED for 529 EUR, it had also 240 Hz PWM and the Eye Strain started faster then on the iPad Pro, but i had zero Feeling of dizziness, i only felt that my Eyes get tired.
In my Opinion the M2 Air has Temporal Dithering, a Friend of me buyed the new IPA with M2 and he told me about a strange Feeling and mild dizziness after looking at the iPad for 30 Minutes and he could not explain it, because on his old iPad he has no Problems. So i visited him last Week at Work, where i showed him under a digital laboratory microscope that the Pixels are flickering or pulsing.
Some Weeks ago i buyed here in Germany a Samsung GalaxyTab S9 with OLED for 529 EUR, it had also 240 Hz PWM and the Eye Strain started faster then on the iPad Pro, but i had zero Feeling of dizziness, i only felt that my Eyes get tired.
In my Opinion the M2 Air has Temporal Dithering, a Friend of me buyed the new IPA with M2 and he told me about a strange Feeling and mild dizziness after looking at the iPad for 30 Minutes and he could not explain it, because on his old iPad he has no Problems. So i visited him last Week at Work, where i showed him under a digital laboratory microscope that the Pixels are flickering or pulsing.
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Test Apple iPad Pro 11 2024 Tablet – Leichter, dünner, pfeilschnell
Seit Jahren können sich Kreative und Entertainment-Fans auf dem iPad Pro austoben, nun spendiert Apple ein Update: Das 11-Zoll-Modell wird schlanker, soll mehr Laufzeit und Leistung bieten und als Display-Technologie kommt nun OLED zum Einsatz. Wir nehmen die Neuerungen unter die Lupe.
www.notebookcheck.com
According to Google Translate, it is only 240hz. This is terrible if true.
I guess this was necessary in order to have a big improvement in battery life.
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Despite what they write, it is 480 Hz, and Notebookcheck's own graphs confirm that. That first graph is zoomed in 40x, probably near minimum brightness. I think the graph at 50% is more concerning, as it shows significant modulation.
Ahh you are right, shame on me, german is my native Language and i didnt read carefully. Behind the 239 HZ there is a Note, that this is the Worst Case.
And this is what i feel, everything i would say above 30 or 40% Brightness is okay, no Problems, but at 10 or 20% its terrible for me.
And this is what i feel, everything i would say above 30 or 40% Brightness is okay, no Problems, but at 10 or 20% its terrible for me.
Regardless of the actual number, I also experienced eye strain with the 11" m4 iPad Pro. It is really a shame because it is a great piece of hardware. My 14 days expired yesterday, so I returned it to the Apple store and grabbed the new iPad Air, which is not causing eye strain problems.
Let's hope they get this fixed for the next version.
Anecdotally, I asked the Apple salesperson if he had any other people returning it because of eye strain. The response was negative. Perhaps I am in a small minority here.
Let's hope they get this fixed for the next version.
Anecdotally, I asked the Apple salesperson if he had any other people returning it because of eye strain. The response was negative. Perhaps I am in a small minority here.
It was fixed with the M1 12.9 iPad Pro as the PWM was estimated to be around 6000hz to 19.000hz.
Maybe Apple should have just fixed the local dimming zones so the mini-LED panel in the iPad has no more blooming.
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I understand this and i explained why they put 239 Hz in the Box, its written in german behind the Box. It is because in the Worst Case it flickers with 239 Hz. The box shows the lowest value that the measurement resulted in.
In my opinion, not admitting to problems is absolutely typical of Apple. How often have there been "gates"? The Internet was full of them in many forums and Apple Support told me that they had never heard of such a problem, whether in the store or on the phone.
I own an IT company and we serve hundreds of customers, so I can tell you that even people who have never had problems with any iPad before are now complaining about nausea and tired eyes with the M4 Pro. Most of them are the same People which had the same Problems with iPhone 12 Pro, which had the same low PWM Rate.
It's not 480hz. The frequency changes with the brightness and 240hz is the lowest they measured, which was at 50% brightness I believe.
480hz is at 100% brightness, which is still very low.
People who are sensitive to PWM flickering are going to have a lot of fun with these M4 iPads.
Probably Apple figured it is just a very small group of people who is sensitive to PWM and they just accept that a very small group of people won't like it and have a much improved battery life instead (which probably leads to more sales in the end).
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I feel like this is part of their training.
When I was in line at a store for the iPhone X launch day, they went through the line asking which carrier we had.
I told them I want the Verizon model because it will be unlocked, but will have the Qualcomm modem. They told me that they had no Verizon models that were not already claimed by preorders or those earlier in line. But apparently my response prompted them to ask why I was looking for this combination. So I explained about how the reverse audio path would drop all the time during calls on my Intel iPhone 7, the poor data performance compared to my iPhone 6s, and they all had never heard of any of this. Or at least pretended to.
Their lead wanted to set me up with a Genius Bar appointment to look at the phone. I had to explain that these are known problems with that hardware — you can easily find others reporting the issues online at that time. I was just here to buy a new phone that wasn’t affected. Queue the “shut up and take my money” GIF.
"Fixed?" No more blooming with "mini-LED" would require a per-pixel backlight, not even the Pro Display XDR has that.
You really think Apple is the benchmark here? My TV destroys the iPad. There is no blooming at all watching HDR movies pushing over 2000+ nits.
This is an Apple problem.
That's not possible to fix. If you have dimming zones, you have blooming. That trade-off is tne whole idea behind mini-LED.
I really believe there is something wrong with Apple their implementation because my TV does a way better job.
Even my 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro doesn't have this level of blooming like my M1 12.9 iPad Pro does.
Not only that, but TVs do it so much better and with much larger displays with even less zones for backlighting.
You are a real peach. Unless you are a licensed Ophthalmologist or Neurologist, I’d advise a little more empathy with your fellow humans.
Let me give you an example of why I have issues.
It’s called Photophobia - It was onset in my case by Lasik eye surgery.
Photophobia - Wikipedia
It can also be hereditary and or caused by exposure to UV or other high frequency exposure.
Since others want a “Definition” of why PWM can effect users, this is my case.
I would love to not be affected. However, I would not go on forums or in public claiming that others are “Self Diagnosing” and Gaslighting a small population that genuinely have issues.
A few things you might want to consider.
1. Your eyes are going to get older.
2. There is a population out there that have no experience with comfortable screens. This is only going to get word unless things change. (People at birth can have eye issues)
3. There is no reason to implement PWM in a display permanently without an option to eliminate it. I for one would buy a iPhone 16 with a 30% reduction in battery life if the option was there. It is simply implemented for battery management on OLEDS. MiniLEDs are shackled to it by the way the technology works.
Hopefully this will help shed light on the subject further and add a data point for everyone out there researching the subject.
Have a blessed day!
Given how old this thread is, I assumed that you were coming back to provide a link to new study. Oh well.You are a real peach. Unless you are a licensed Ophthalmologist or Neurologist, I’d advise a little more empathy with your fellow humans.
Let me give you an example of why I have issues.
It’s called Photophobia - It was onset in my case by Lasik eye surgery.
Photophobia - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
It can also be hereditary and or caused by exposure to UV or other high frequency exposure.
Since others want a “Definition” of why PWM can effect users, this is my case.
I would love to not be affected. However, I would not go on forums or in public claiming that others are “Self Diagnosing” and Gaslighting a small population that genuinely have issues.
A few things you might want to consider.
1. Your eyes are going to get older.
2. There is a population out there that have no experience with comfortable screens. This is only going to get word unless things change. (People at birth can have eye issues)
3. There is no reason to implement PWM in a display permanently without an option to eliminate it. I for one would buy a iPhone 16 with a 30% reduction in battery life if the option was there. It is simply implemented for battery management on OLEDS. MiniLEDs are shackled to it by the way the technology works.
Hopefully this will help shed light on the subject further and add a data point for everyone out there researching the subject.
Have a blessed day!
And if this is "gaslighting" to you, then I guess we should just drop it. I wish you well.
So I guess it's all just a huge coincidence that people have negative outcomes for using these displays? They get nausea, headaches/migraines and blurry vision simply because they wish to and not because there's something actually going on? Despite the fact the flicker can be captured on cameras?
Did you read that paper? It's not new and is from the Russian Academy of Sciences of all places; it does not set out to prove the link between PWM and these symptoms.... it presupposes the link and then lays out methods to measure and alter PWM characteristics.
Did you read any of the citations that this paper uses to justify that presupposition?
...which is not publicly available in it's entirety, but the abstract ends with: "The experiment did not find significant differences in concentration levels resulting from the different lighting conditions."
That study is cited to bolster the claim the "This issue is extensively studied," but seems to insinuate (rather unscrupulously IMO) that the cited study found a link between PWM and these symptoms, when if found no such link.
So again, I'm not doubting the reality of your and other's lived experience. I am merely not convinced that you really know what's causing your symptoms.