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Qualcomm Employee: 64-Bit A7 Chip 'Hit Us In The Gut'
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appleguy123
macrumors 604
I ran iOS 7 on my iPad 3 and ran into less crashes. Those were beta releases too.
Renzatic
Suspended
Right. The chip doesn't have anything to do with how many tabs you've got open. The extra memory 64-bit Safari uses would only be a slight bit more than 32-bit Safari, and wouldn't be noticeable by anyone.
gotluck
macrumors 603
Michael Goff
Suspended
Except that iDevices are already in the "too little RAM" category even before you add any extra required for a 64-bit app. :\
Woodcrest64
macrumors 65816
I'm no computer engineer but am I right to assume that with apps going to 64bit in the future won't will eat up more memory? My fear is that with the iPad Air already reloading tabs in Safari, what is going to happen to when you start loading up 64bit apps on it next year?
I think this years iPad Mini Retina and Air are screwed in terms of being future proofed like the Original iPad was with its 256mb of RAM.
If next year's iPad Mini and Air come with 2gb of memory those will certainly last as long as the iPad 2 has up until this point. Don't get me wrong, I like Apple's iPads but 64bit and 1GB memory wasn't a good idea in terms of future proofing for consumers.
phoenixsan
macrumors 65816
So.....
Apple one more time puts the standard up than expected...?.....Maybe some people are doing things worst than Apple. Or Apple are excelling......😀
🙂
Apple one more time puts the standard up than expected...?.....Maybe some people are doing things worst than Apple. Or Apple are excelling......😀
🙂
Right now, it's the crappy and extremely buggy 64-bit Safari in iOS 7. It's leaking memory badly, which then causes the low-memory crashes as iOS does not have a paging system.
I was experiencing crashes 2-3 times a day and a 3-5 tab limit before it reloads in Safari in 7.0.x. 7.1 beta 2 has no crashes and seems to be able to do 5-8 tabs without reloading but it depends on which sites. If I go to TheVerge, then bam, it's going to run out of memory quickly because of the large amount of images being loaded as you scroll up and down. I can open reddit/macrumors in 5-7 tabs without reloading.
Casiotone
macrumors 6502a
Probably a memory leak and it's not always easy to diagnose and fix.
A system process or Safari itself can start using much more memory than it should because of a leak, which eventually causes tabs to reload, and eventually causes Safari to be terminated because of abnormal RAM usage.
It's very possible that a bug like this would only affect the 64-bit build of iOS 7.
The fact that you're seeing crash is an obvious sign that a memory leak might be at play, not the fact that 64-bit apps can use a little more RAM (not double like some seem to imply.)
The amount of time you lose due to constant tab reloading in Safari and reloading of already loaded apps due to paltry amount of RAM would take a lo-o-o-ot of faster 64-bit cycles to reclaim. If loading a tab saves 0.2s due to 64-bit, but reloading the tab takes 5s, you lost 4.8s of your life staring at a blank screen. Thanks to 64-bit!
Well, it appears Apples competitors disagree with you. I think Ill take their opinion over yours.
Not that I dislike Qualcomm at all but I can't decide which of hitting everyone in the gut or kicking them in the balls I like better. 🙂
3bs
macrumors 603
Michael Goff
Suspended
The advantage that the competitors will have is that they won't throw out a RAM-starved device. 😉
69650
Suspended
Apple's clever marketing always fools a lot of people into believing their hype and spin. Like you say 64bit is useless on the iPad and iPhone but if the mostly non techie people who buy Apple's products don't know that then they are going to fall for it time and again. Until that is they actually use it and realise it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to their user experience. By then it's too late as Apple already has your money. 😀
Renzatic
Suspended
This is true, but it wouldn't make a difference even there unless you were almost maxed out, and iOS didn't start closing apps to compensate.
We're talking about a difference of...maybe...50-100 meg or so overall. It's hard to say how much more memory a 64-bit app uses over a 32-bit one. It can be upwards of twice as much in worst cases, though usually it's only a scant bit more.
Casiotone
macrumors 6502a
The additional RAM usage by 64-bit apps is way overblown by some forum members here. Safari in 7.0.x has a memory leak bug, that's what causes the tab reloading and "crashes".
macduke
macrumors G5
Love my iPad Mini Retina, hate the RAM limitation. Sure iOS 7 is buggy, but it's a fact that 64-bit compiled apps use 20-30% more ram when doing the same task as a 32-bit processor.
People love to talk about Apple doing what is best for a normal user. It is my opinion that a normal user is less likely to notice the difference in speed between a 32-bit processor and a 64-bit processor than notice when their apps crash. I'd take an A6X and 2GB of ram in my Mini Retina over an A7 and 1GB of RAM. Though a 32-bit A7 would be ideal as the speed difference for most normal apps is around 5%roughly the difference in speed between the Mini Retina and iPad Air. Even though it may take longer to do a task, I know I'm able to do it with less chance of crashing, while being able to do more advanced tasks such as extra layers when making a drawing or extra audio tracks for making music. Hopefully for common tasks that people do in Safari, mail and photos these are just iOS bugs, but I can't help but wonder about future upgradability. This is why I bought only one Mini Retina to share with my wife. I'll get the better one or Pro next year and she will get this one which with big fixes will probably be enough for her. She also doesn't use it as much throughout the day.
Naming it the iPad Air of course opened up the idea of an iPad Pro. But I think even more the 64-bit A7 confirms the Pro is in the works. Apple wanted to makes sure they nailed down the 64-bit software and process before launching the Pro model. Just like the MBP is thicker than the MBA, I think the Pro will be slightly chunkier running faster hardware. Probably an A8X quad-core running at 1.5GHz, 4GB of ram, maybe a little wider aspect ratio which works better for image editing apps and the like with higher resolution, USB port with basic file system functionality and limited peripheral support. Will Geekbench 64-bit in the 6-7000 range. 64/128/256GB for $899/999/1099. Maybe $100 more per model. iPad Air 2 will be A8 dual-core with 2GB ram. 32/64/128GB for $499/599/699.
For some reason I think the iPad Pro might come in two sizes: 10-11" and 12-13"". $100 more for larger size? I think with a different ratio there wouldn't be a screen size exactly the same as the iPad Air, and normal iPad apps would run letterboxed like the iPhone 5 did at first. Don't think it will be 16:9 but something more like the MBP ratio which is in between.
People love to talk about Apple doing what is best for a normal user. It is my opinion that a normal user is less likely to notice the difference in speed between a 32-bit processor and a 64-bit processor than notice when their apps crash. I'd take an A6X and 2GB of ram in my Mini Retina over an A7 and 1GB of RAM. Though a 32-bit A7 would be ideal as the speed difference for most normal apps is around 5%roughly the difference in speed between the Mini Retina and iPad Air. Even though it may take longer to do a task, I know I'm able to do it with less chance of crashing, while being able to do more advanced tasks such as extra layers when making a drawing or extra audio tracks for making music. Hopefully for common tasks that people do in Safari, mail and photos these are just iOS bugs, but I can't help but wonder about future upgradability. This is why I bought only one Mini Retina to share with my wife. I'll get the better one or Pro next year and she will get this one which with big fixes will probably be enough for her. She also doesn't use it as much throughout the day.
Naming it the iPad Air of course opened up the idea of an iPad Pro. But I think even more the 64-bit A7 confirms the Pro is in the works. Apple wanted to makes sure they nailed down the 64-bit software and process before launching the Pro model. Just like the MBP is thicker than the MBA, I think the Pro will be slightly chunkier running faster hardware. Probably an A8X quad-core running at 1.5GHz, 4GB of ram, maybe a little wider aspect ratio which works better for image editing apps and the like with higher resolution, USB port with basic file system functionality and limited peripheral support. Will Geekbench 64-bit in the 6-7000 range. 64/128/256GB for $899/999/1099. Maybe $100 more per model. iPad Air 2 will be A8 dual-core with 2GB ram. 32/64/128GB for $499/599/699.
For some reason I think the iPad Pro might come in two sizes: 10-11" and 12-13"". $100 more for larger size? I think with a different ratio there wouldn't be a screen size exactly the same as the iPad Air, and normal iPad apps would run letterboxed like the iPhone 5 did at first. Don't think it will be 16:9 but something more like the MBP ratio which is in between.
macs4nw
macrumors 601
69650
Suspended
Money money money
Must be funny
In a rich Apple's world
All the things I could do
If I had a little money
It's a rich Apple's world
Aha-ahaaa
All the things I could do
Like pay a living wage
Or not employ children
Or push people to suicide
Aha-ahaaa
But I don't do any of that
Or anything else useful with it
Aha-ahaaa
I stash my money in the bank
While I dine with wall street parasites
Aha-ahaaa
It's a rich Apple's world
Must be funny
In a rich Apple's world
All the things I could do
If I had a little money
It's a rich Apple's world
Aha-ahaaa
All the things I could do
Like pay a living wage
Or not employ children
Or push people to suicide
Aha-ahaaa
But I don't do any of that
Or anything else useful with it
Aha-ahaaa
I stash my money in the bank
While I dine with wall street parasites
Aha-ahaaa
It's a rich Apple's world
*sigh
64 bit doesn't increase speed. It only allows for more data to be accessible. It allows more memory beyond the 4GB limit. Last I knew there are no phones with more then 2GB of RAM let alone an application that needs access to more data at once. If you write the application in 64bit it might be a tiny bit faster but it's too small for it to even matter. Should I mention that the apps you use on your smart phone are small enough where it doesn't need to access that much data? Hell most of the applications for PC's don't require 64bit memory addressing including most games you buy for PC.
There's literally zero benefit in a smart phone.
I'm a systems engineer and I approve this message.
64 bit doesn't increase speed. It only allows for more data to be accessible. It allows more memory beyond the 4GB limit. Last I knew there are no phones with more then 2GB of RAM let alone an application that needs access to more data at once. If you write the application in 64bit it might be a tiny bit faster but it's too small for it to even matter. Should I mention that the apps you use on your smart phone are small enough where it doesn't need to access that much data? Hell most of the applications for PC's don't require 64bit memory addressing including most games you buy for PC.
There's literally zero benefit in a smart phone.
I'm a systems engineer and I approve this message.
People are so ignorant. Apple put a 64bit ARMv8 chip in ALL of the new iOS devices ( except 5C ) for one simple reason of Battery Life.
Yes it's faster ( a lot in some cases ), yes it looks great on paper for marketing but the ARMv8 64bit instruction set is EXTREMELY optimised for low power usage. It's the first modern CPU arch that is used in a consumer device. x86_64 is ancient as is i386 and as such they are poorly optimised for low power situations. Even ARM's 32bit arch is quite old.
Source
Going forward I'm sure we can expect to see similar things from Apple, their goal is to reduce weight and physical form factor while getting better or equal battery life. Battery tech is so stagnant right now that Apple has a massive advantage on competitors due to the closeness of the hardware software integration in this area.
Yes it's faster ( a lot in some cases ), yes it looks great on paper for marketing but the ARMv8 64bit instruction set is EXTREMELY optimised for low power usage. It's the first modern CPU arch that is used in a consumer device. x86_64 is ancient as is i386 and as such they are poorly optimised for low power situations. Even ARM's 32bit arch is quite old.
Source
Going forward I'm sure we can expect to see similar things from Apple, their goal is to reduce weight and physical form factor while getting better or equal battery life. Battery tech is so stagnant right now that Apple has a massive advantage on competitors due to the closeness of the hardware software integration in this area.
Too funny! So all of a sudden the Indian guy from Qualcomm is not talking trash anymore...
-Mike
-Mike
You're a bad systems engineer then. The CPU arch makes a huge difference in power consumption and performance. And ARMv8 64bit whips any chip on the market in a massive way in those areas.