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Mac vs PC -- Indesign vs Quark

I have been a designer with a company that designs and produces text books for all of the major publishers in the US for going on 8 years now. We have had between 25-60 production artists on staff over the past 4 years at our main site, and a satelite office with 10-20 (not sure of exact numbers at the moment). Add to that 12 designers, Imaging, Prepress, an Editoral, project management, and art research departments. We use a lot of Macs, some are handed down to other departments as they are moved out of design, imaging, pre-press, and production.

One number in the "market share" data that is missed a lot of times is the "installe base" of the computer in question. There are probably more "old" macs in service than a similar vintage PC in buisnesses that use computers becouse the software that is needed toget the work done still works on the old Macs, and the computers themselves still work good enough for the job at hand.

Where I work are still on OS X, and will be till sometime next year. This is due to timing on Apples latest "Up to date" program, and the current financial conditions of the market than anything else. However, there is also a reluctance to make large moves in software adoption becouse of the potential cost of incompatabilities that can crop up, remember the move to Photoshop 5 and the problems their new color engine created? So this year our IT department updated everyone to OS 9.2, and Apple, and Quark will have to wait on a fairly large chunk of change for an upgrade.

Now to the point, I have been using Quark for over 7 years. Recently I had the oppertunity to use Indesign on a "In House" research project. My impressions of it are great, to a point. It is a great design tool, not so great as a production tool. The reasons:

It is slow (possibly faster on OS X, but on OS 9 it is slow on my dual gig an a 10 page document, and some of the ones we work with push 30 pages). This is a major problem when Quark works faster on legacy machines in these economic times, and Apples hardware is not giving companies compelling reasons to upgrade.

Also, due to its PDF format, it "flattens" the pages when it prints. So if you use any of the bells and whistles, such as transparency, you kill your OPI workflow. Now we are back to taking 5-30+ minutes for a page clear off the production artists computer then more to wait for it to move across the network to the print server. This is a major problem when you are printing 100 pages that need to go out, and the same document built in Quark clears the computer in less than 10 minutes (all 100 pages).

Dont get me wrong I like Indesign, it has a great feature set, has strong AppleScript support, and with a PDF printing workflow it builds good print files. But right now it has some problems, at least in large document handeling.

Quark is not the winner either. Personally I like Quark 3.32 better than Quark 4.11, and I havent even had a chance to look at 5.0, we will probably skip it altogether unless our customers demand it (though right now they are researching Indesign). Quark does still have a strong install base, if not the best "upgrade" sales, and it works fairly predictably for print media.
 
Re: Market share

Originally posted by linescreen
This in from O'Reily

http://www.macdevcenter.com/lpt/a/2526

They expect to see the market share for mac to rise.....saying that number of mac users that have visited has doubled.

They might be right IF Apple can correct their main deficiency right now, processor speed. This is a real problem, particualarly in the high end markets that Apple targets. They really need the dual 970 as soon as possible. A replacement for the G4 in their consumer lines wouldnt hurt either. Or at mimimum a major improvement in the Motherboard to support the fastest video and memory that is available for the G4.
 
Re:Re:planes, Trains & Automobiles

No sweat Locovaca. Ya, I'm inclined to agree with you that the car analogies have limits... and most of those limits are because of you said about people never driving over 75mph. I think the car analogies are still good for helping explain different computer hardware concepts to people who don't understand some of the computer processor terms. But you're right about the limits of real life driving speeds... which leads to something else... I read this book called "Why We Buy" (I'm from the graphics & advertising world). In it the author (who is an expert on how people shop -- he uses anthropolgy research techniques) made a comment that someday a computer company would get away from selling computers like we sell cars to teenage boys (speed) and move towards selling based on how useful the computer is. His entire description sounded like Apple's iApps and the Apple Stores. He noted that computer companies tend to sell just to young male attitudes and are ignoring the other half of the population -- women. I think he's right on track. He then talked about similar problems in the auto industry and the music industry (both of which he said were about the most backwards industries marketing-wise).
 
Re: Re: Market share

Originally posted by @HomeNow


They might be right IF Apple can correct their main deficiency right now, processor speed. This is a real problem, particualarly in the high end markets that Apple targets. They really need the dual 970 as soon as possible. A replacement for the G4 in their consumer lines wouldnt hurt either. Or at mimimum a major improvement in the Motherboard to support the fastest video and memory that is available for the G4.

Or lower their prices to the value point that their current processors and memory offer. Get people to use the current OS and when they can come out with faster processors - users who like it will likely upgrade.
 
thumbnail...

okokokokokokok...I WIN!

no...i'm just sad reading all of this...

i'm a designer of 10 years now...and i'm running off to europe soon to start a new office...on a new continent...and we'll see what happens...

but my business partner (the one who controls the money - i don't relate work and money very well)...tells me we are getting brand new PC's with the largest flat monitors he can find...i'm pretty sure he's joking...but he would do it in a second if i let him...

MY macs (unfortunately G4's argh! - i'd like a G5 please)...will be making the trip and will be poised for action on foreign soil...

anyways...i think the marketing data is clearly inverted...we're at OSX...ALOT of people are sitting on the sidelines for this thing to shake out the bugs...and also for the new OSX software to do the same...people aren't buying quark for two reasons:

1 - quark is boring (ID is slowly coming of age)
2 - OSX...it's got to be killing them...nobody is buying Quark OS9 software and nobody is certainly buying Q.OSX software they can't buy...

3 (for added value) - the comment about quark and paranoia...oi vey...if it was ever bad it's got to be out of control by now...i can't stand their company culture one bit...i could say more but i won't...

to the guy who made the comment that if we are still using mac's we aren't concerned one bit about power...DAMN STRAIGHT...while i have my own little tweaks with the mac from time to time, i'll stick with apple any day for the overall reliabilty, usability and quick fixability ANY day...yer a chump! bring it on...

now i'm happy again...mac isn't back...it never left!
 
Re: Quark is dead. Long live Quark!

Originally posted by jeffbunch
mangoman: You're right about IDv1 sucking a lot, but I haven't seen enough improvement to switch. I keep starting projects with ID, but end up completing them in Quark. I'm desperate for a OS X app, but just not that desperate. The interface for ID, while the same as Photoshop/Illustrator, is way too jumble for me and I have a dual monitor setup. If they had a measurements pallette like Quark maybe then I'd switch but I keep getting lost in the sea of palletes when I want to change. Document layout is different than photoediting/illustrations and should have it's own purpose-specific interface.

And before the negative responses, I'm not a Quark lover by any stretch. The company sucks in the customer service department and is such a quirky company to deal with, considering what they charge for their product. But it works, and works well. On paper, ID looks better by far, but I'm talking about the real world. The majority of people I know use Quark instead of PageMaker/InDesign and they're not switching anytime soon. I give them the selling points of ID but you can take Quark from their cold dead hands.

Quark spanked Aldus (original PageMaker) when it was king, maybe Adobe will return the favor, but that won't be for a long time. People will just stay with OS 9 and Quark because it's what they know until something compelling enough comes along. (soon hopefully)


Kid Red Ditto on the switching to Windows part. What BS!!



Don't really go there. Just open both programs side by side. Not only the newer, better and easier interface of InD will amaze good designers but the freedom of useability is in favor or InD. I do unserstand people they worked long time with quark. It must be hard to give up their world, but why not talking something new and easier to handle app. May be its too hard to uses for Quark people since they only have 10% of the functions that InD offers.

Give me a break. IF Quark don't kick up a fireworks with its 6 version i don't see a bright future. And after I see how they DON'T care about OS X, i am even happy if they go down.
 
... Just open both programs side by side. Not only the newer, better and easier interface of InD will amaze good designers but the freedom of useability is in favor or InD...

I have had both of them open, and although InDesigns interface is more modern, I dont think it is neccessarely better than Quarks. First of all, ther is pallet overload. A 20-22" monitor is no longer large enough for all of the pallets that you have. An experienced Quark user does not need all of those pallets open all of the time, becouse they can call up the appropriate formatting menues with key combinations. I admit that I have not used ID long enough to learn all of its keyboard shortcuts, and that might help, bet more is not neccessarelly better when it comes to pallets.
 
Originally posted by @HomeNow


I have had both of them open, and although InDesigns interface is more modern, I dont think it is neccessarely better than Quarks. First of all, ther is pallet overload. A 20-22" monitor is no longer large enough for all of the pallets that you have.… but more is not neccessarelly better when it comes to pallets.

AMEN! Adobe has some sort of pallet fetish I don't understand. And the KB shortcuts, the key combinations are freaky, not much sense being made with those.
 
face to face

Quark vs. ID2

1) Features - ID2
2) Responsiveness - QXD
3) Nativity - ID2
4) File acceptance - QXD
5) WSIWIG - ID2
6) Reliability of RIP - QXD
7) Intuitiveness (for PSD & ILL users) - ID2
8) Workspace - QXD
9) Opening/working with archived QXD files - QXD
10) Customer Service - ID2

These are 2 good programs. This board tends to lean towards Mac fanaticism, which definately gives the not toward native apps as well as companies that are not openly hostile to Apple while being excessively coddling of the Wintel Sector. All I see Quark doing here is stirring up a lot of hatred among the once faithful. Talk about your bad marketing.... - j
 
Quark Sucks!!

Plain and simple it sucks.
I wouldn't touch Quark with a 10' pole
for most my projects before InDesign I was using Freehand but even freehand gets slow with 20 pages + then I had to use Quark :mad: but here comes InDesign to save the day, I use it once and I was hook.

F... Quark and that response really means "F... all the Mac Users you take what we have and like it"

my two Cents!!

Wash
 
The problem in my company is that we need productivity (newspapers). If Indesign is a 100% program, we only use 10% of it. The rest of the functionality of the program we never use. The same with Photoshop and Illustrator. With Quark we use about 80% of the program (vs 4.11). So Indesign IS a excellent competitor to Quark (and often for Designers a winner) but in my business not very handy.
 
I love Quark. I feel like I'm a master of the program. There is nothing I can't do. I am a human Quark manual. It holds a very special place in my heart.

But then again, I've been using it for years, I have not committed to OSX yet, and when I had my ID experience, it was version 1.5 (which sucks).

Although Quark does need to go OSX (and so do I), I like using Quark as my excuse for not movin on up. When Quark goes OSX, I will no longer have an excuse. Then I will have to fork out cash to upgrade Photoshop, Illustrator, Quark, Jaguar, Dreamweaver, Flash, etc. And the thing that sucks is that I had upgraded just before all the current upgrades.



On the subject of Quark's clients switching to PC:

I began to see this trend when I was working for a printhouse a couple of years ago. Available software was the problem, but it wasn't Quark's fault. The new RIPs (CreoCytex) that we were getting for our printers required a PC. We didn't have much choice. I think that the sooner Mac and it's software developers become unified in OSX the sooner that Mac will be able to regain the market lost.
 
Originally posted by jeffhalmos
And InDesign is not a better app than XPress. Not even close. It's far slower and very clunky and unrefined. Has ANYONE found their rhythm with this thing yet?

Yes, InDesign is a little slow and clunky, but it's nowhere near as slow and clunky as running Xpress in Classic Mode, and I'm not going to reboot to OS9 just to use Xpress-EVERY other app I have, including all the Adobe and Macrmedia products is OSX compatible, so it's just too much hassle to use Xpress. On top of that, I love a lot of the new features in InDesign (can you say "multiple undoes"?) and I think I'm actually nearly at the comfort level with InDesign after using it for 9 months that I was with Xpress after using if for 10 years. But then, I'm a designer, not a publisher, so the publishing tools might be a little hinkier to use. For designer, though, InDesign is so far superior to Xpress that it's not even funny. I doubt that Xpress 6 will even bring them to the level of InDesign 2, and by the time Xpress 6 is released, we'll have InDesign 3 to use...
 
Originally posted by mathyoo


Yes, InDesign is a little slow and clunky, but it's nowhere near as slow and clunky as running Xpress in Classic Mode....For designer, though, InDesign is so far superior to Xpress that it's not even funny...

ID2 has a superior feature set, but there is little difference running Quark in the Classic mode except for some screen-redraw issues (very clunky there). I find ID2 to be barely usable on an older 450mHz machine (molasses), where Quark seems just as instantaneous as it did in 9. I'm sure part of this problem lies with OSX in general, but a large portion is because ID2 is doing so much more in terms of better previews and transparency (if you want it to. Even in the roughest mode, it's still a dog).

I really want to get to know ID2 better, but it really is useless on a 450mHz G4. At what speed does it start to become tolerable?
 
I've been running it on a 933 Quicksilver and it's schmoov like ExLax. But I'm spoiled like that.

Anyhooo, my buddy's running it on a 600+ mhz G4 (can't remember the exact speed) and he's an ID monster. Says it's good for him.

Don't know if that helps....
 
Also to note: I live in Denver and personally know about a dozen people who used to work for Quark, and they all say the same thing-that Quark, especially upper management and development, all hate Xpress. They all want to work on newer projects instead of rehashing the same one, even though it's their bread-and-butter app. That probably has more to do with Quark dragging it's feet with upgrades than anything else. One of the people I know-a good friend, actually, used to be the managing editor of X-Ray magazine, and is now working as an independant writer for several different software companies, including Adobe. His primary task for them is to evaluate InDesign and write about it, and he was extremely critical of it until the 2.0 release. Around that time, he started trying to convince me to at least try the demo, so I did and was an instant convert. He's actually running a workshop at MacWorld on how to switch from Xpress to InDesign too. One of the things that really convinced me to switch was his opinion-he's one of the few people I've known that knew more about Xpress than I did, but the more he worked with InDesign the more impressed he was with it, and I have to say that I agree. I think that Quark just went for far too long with no real competition, so they became slack and lazy-how long was it between 3.32 and 4.0? No other software company goes that long without major upgrades, and they were notorious for their horrible tech support, but suddenly that changed when InDesign was released...
 
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