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So even though your evidence is showing a decline in print sales my experience is that variety of print is growing so Quark is still an important part of the designers tool box.

This is true. The variety is increasing, but I wonder for how long. I wonder how many small publications are made by huge companies. For instance, a magazine may be put out for the Olympics for just one year, or maybe a some sort of pop star would get their own rag for a year or so. We may find that the same firm with the same copy or Quark is designing all these smaller magazines along with larger titles like "Newsweek" and "Outdoor Life.". I would be interested to know if small local companies with one rag, would use Quark as much as a large house. My thought is that small firms are more interested in InDesign because it's bundled with CS. Large houses go with Quark because it's geared more towards corporate use.

Your "variety" point is valid for the next couple of years. However, I believe that the lucrative "single copy" sales are waning and along with that, advertising dollars. These variety magazines come and go. As generation y and z come on board they will turn more towards the internet for media.

This will be a slow slow change and if I was to be honest, Quark 7 will be valid for at least 5 more years, no matter how bitter I am towards it.

Cheers!

No hard feelings.:)
 
Leoff said:
I have no idea about the new version of the program or it's abilities, but I'm not stupid enough to trash the new version when I haven't even seen it yet.


its easy when you know quarks reputation and people who use it enough, do.
i dont really care if they have new features. new features from quark are rare, so do i really want to buy in on quark 7 when history shows they lag with application enhancements? they havent even added key commands for their tool pallet...you get one key command that lets you CYCLE through all the tools...to time consuming. since before the new millennium they have made us work this way. thats not a company thats trying to improve things. quark features...im not counting on them working, not with their history. i just dont want to have to depend on them. thats all, i dont even care if their features do work.

and if the majority of a software companies clients are complaining then that might tell you something about the company. just like MS in that sense.
 
cmcconkey said:
Their designer send in a great looking design but as soon as we put it through our Celebra rip it looked at it and scratched its head and gave up. So we start going through it and with 2 of us knowing Illustrator well enough, to do about anything we could ever need in it and be asleep, we started digging around in the file and found no problems. We export it to an EPS and send it through Illustrator and everything works great. We export a PDF from Indesign and the rip still does the same. But we make an eps of it and distill it using Adobe Distiller everything is fine.


we never use the actual file the designer gives us. actually everything is rebuilt from scratch. this is what the production department does. the designer and art director work on the look, they hand it off to the production department and we measure every attribute and redo every file thats associated with it. we dont depend on our creative staff to produce the files.


not one vendor has sent us back mechanicals from indesign and we never had any problems that we didnt fix before sending them out. actually all our vendors prefer indesign. the only reason we use quark sometimes is because we have some clients that like to fiddle with their files...now thats a nightmare.

anyway one mans pleasure is another mans pain. i choose indesign, i hope the people that choose quark will get some long over key commands for the tools in 7. shutter....good luck.
 
Leoff said:
... yet I bet a majority of those complainers will be among the first in line to buy Quark 7 after their eyes pop out of their heads when they see all the "wow!" features it has.

I have no idea about the new version of the program or it's abilities, but I'm not stupid enough to trash the new version when I haven't even seen it yet.

I have seen Quark 7 demoed by Quark reps at a show in November and recently in March. Both times it was crashing right and left. The only positive part is it crashed less in March than it did in November. Each time the rep kept saying "it is still in beta" blah blah blah "these will be fixed by the time it ships."

As to "wow" features - I just don't see that many that are not already in ID. Probably the one with the most "wow" factor is the multiple documents feature. I spent a lot of time looking at this and it just didn't seem that easy to use - cool in concept just not sure if it will be truely complete when it ships.

And for the person that posted their students are asking for more Quark teaching - do you teach much Quark at all? I have a ton of students who are asking for more Indesign as we teach Quark rather throughly. To be fair, the students do not want LESS Quark, rather to be schooled in both programs. This is what I hear from several other collegues at universities so I don't think it I am isolated.

As to one program being better than the other, I hope Quark stays in the game - it is the only thing to keep the pressure on both companies to keep improving the programs.
 
Blue Velvet said:
If you work in pre-press, surely you'll take what your clients send you. How can you 'switch' when most people are sending out PDFs these days anyway?

All of our printers would thank you and kiss your behind for sending them a MS Publisher file if it meant getting the job.

Speaking as a printer, you are correct. We'd be puckering up not only for getting the work, but also for the oodles of tech charges we could foist upon you for using Publisher.:p

Our operators hated ID until CS1 came out. Now, it is their application of choice. We have been beta testing Q7 for a few months, and it should be the best release since 3.32.
 
macnews said:
And for the person that posted their students are asking for more Quark teaching - do you teach much Quark at all? I have a ton of students who are asking for more Indesign as we teach Quark rather throughly. To be fair, the students do not want LESS Quark, rather to be schooled in both programs. This is what I hear from several other collegues at universities so I don't think it I am isolated.

This topic was raised at a recent course meeting. We will be incorporating workshops in InDesign but it will not to taught as part of the core modules at the moment. As lecturers it is getting to the point where we are no longer teaching design but teaching how to use software. As you will know/guess the two are very different things.

Our course is constantly evolving, we incorporate print, web, interactive media, video, PDF and paper technologies. Every year we devote more time to software tuition and less to design. We have to keep a balance and keep industry demands in mind so next academic year we will add tuition in InDesign but not at the expense of dropping Quark.

WHAT IF? If the whole design industry were to turn its back on Quark in the next year we would drop it. The same would be for Photoshop if industry totally went with some other application. The fact is this isn’t going to happen unless either Quark or Adobe pull out of the DTP market. :)
 
http://www.quark.com/products/xpress/seven/beta.html

QuarkXPress 7 Universal Binary public beta 1

Important pre-installation instructions for the QuarkXPress 7 Universal Binary beta 1 »
What is the QuarkXPress 7 Universal Binary public beta program?

The public beta program is your opportunity to engage with a community of other beta users, report issues, request feature enhancements in future releases, and take a hands-on look at the new features before QuarkXPress® 7 for Mac Intel-based machines is released.

Sign up for the public beta program »
Public beta program information

* The public beta program has ended for Windows users.
* QuarkXPress 7 Universal Binary public beta 1 software is a pre-release version.
* QuarkXPress 7 Universal Binary public beta 1 can be installed on a Power Mac G4 (or later) or an Intel-based Mac computer
* QuarkXPress 7 Universal Binary public beta 1 software will be functional for 60 days from the day it’s installed.
* Not all features in the QuarkXPress 7 Universal Binary public beta 1 are implemented. Users may experience unexpected results when using certain features.
* QuarkXPress 7 Universal Binary public beta 1 is not intended for use in a production environment.
* Technical support is not available for QuarkXPress 7 Universal Binary public beta 1 software.
 
G.Kirby said:
As lecturers it is getting to the point where we are no longer teaching design but teaching how to use software. As you will know/guess the two are very different things.

Our course is constantly evolving, we incorporate print, web, interactive media, video, PDF and paper technologies. Every year we devote more time to software tuition and less to design. We have to keep a balance and keep industry demands in mind so next academic year we will add tuition in InDesign but not at the expense of dropping Quark.

I can't agree with you more re: teaching software vs teaching design. It is a big problem I am seeing more and more. So much time devoted to going in depth with the programs stealing time away from design. Hope all goes well with your program.
 
macnews said:
I can't agree with you more re: teaching software vs teaching design. It is a big problem I am seeing more and more. So much time devoted to going in depth with the programs stealing time away from design. Hope all goes well with your program.
And on that note... it really doesn't take that long to learn a new app if you're familiar with the concepts. I think InDesign took me a few weeks before I had most of it covered and was back to near full speed.

I don't really mind which app is better, as long as there's healthy competition and I'm in a situation where I can use the one I prefer!
 
Highland said:
And on that note... it really doesn't take that long to learn a new app if you're familiar with the concepts. I think InDesign took me a few weeks before I had most of it covered and was back to near full speed.

I don't really mind which app is better, as long as there's healthy competition and I'm in a situation where I can use the one I prefer!


I agree with you for the most part but when we get students joining the course only a hand full will have used a DTP application, most will have only used Photoshop and have no guidance in image basics, some students will never have seen a Mac let alone know how to use one. :confused: So as you can inagine the learning curve is quite a steep one. :)
 
Oh yeah. I completely understand that! Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you could just teach anyone anything and expect them to walk into a job where they'd be using something else. I just meant that they're not worlds apart, so once you're very at home in one, you should find the other pretty easy to learn. The keyboard shortcuts do trip us all up for a few weeks though!
 
design vs software

And on that note... it really doesn't take that long to learn a new app if you're familiar with the concepts. I think InDesign took me a few weeks before I had most of it covered and was back to near full speed.

I've heard this problem repeatedly. I can give you my spin on it. In my experience, I never got the chance to go to design school. I was very technically savvy, which got me a gig setting up a print designers office about 6 years ago. He saw that I was intuitive and understood "complicated" things like layers in Photoshop or perhaps concatenating paths in Illustrator. However, I did not have good design sense. This working relationship has worked quite well. He has 30+ years of experience and knows how a design should look. However, he is dangerous on the Mac. He can't even figure out how to add a "no break" character to InDesign. Often times, bleeds are missing. Panatones colors are set used for 4 color jobs. I am the one who translates the design to the software.

You have your right brainers and left brainers. Finding one a student who can use both sides well is rare. We've had freelancers come to the shop with design skills and lofty ideas, how ever we wind up spending months teaching them how to mask, run filters, and name layers in Photoshop. Often times, simple skills like naming layers in Photoshop don't exist. InDesign files are a mess with dozens of phantom boxes and strokes. Files are placed haphazardly all over the server with what ever name the designer was thinking of.

I believe that we should teach more software skills along with a class of "naming files" and server organization. People who shoot out of design school are complete slobs. If they aren't neat and organized with file names and photoshop layers, it will cost your shop money cleaning up after them.

Many shops have the chain of command where the senior designer tells the junior designer what to do. The junior designer tells the production artist what to do and so on. The kid that comes in at ground level should be neat, clean and efficient with software. It's likely the designers above him/her already know what the design should look like. After years of direction, the entry designer will gain momentum and confidence working under experienced designers and move up the chain. He/She will find that their left brain will begin to work with the right allowing them to be creative and technically savvy at the same time.

This is again why I feel strongly about the CS suite. Learning software is very tough if you want to keep up with cutting edge design. Learning one Adobe product can be much easier once you've worked with another. Having to learn Quark, after working with Adobe Aps is like learning a second language. It may not take some people long to learn DTP's, but Photoshop and Illustrator can take years to perfect. It's not uncommon for my Photoshop files to have 100 layers after a couple of hours of instruction from the designer. He is finicky, and often wants to go back to a step from 1/2 hour ago. I have to be careful to build layers in such a way that I can find them quickly and bring them back up to edit. Some of our Illustrator work involves 5,000 sq. ft. mansions. The file is enormous, and I must keep it organized and easy to edit. If I'm not quick enough, the shop loses money. We've had "designers" come in to work on our files, and almost every time, a mess is made and the job takes twice as long due to poor software skills.
 
In my experience, Quark 5 was crap so we stuck with 4.1 which a) just about covers our needs and b) works flawlessly so we have so far felt no real need to upgrade - This is on a fast G4 running 9.2. All our photoshop work gets done on a G5 so our system works pretty well. The only thing that really BUGS me is that for large format work, I have to work to ridiculous scales of full size - sometimes 1:20 or 1:50 scale because the page size only goes up to 1219.2mm. Now I looked at the v7 beta to see if this had been changed and I was flabberghasted to see that this limitation was still there! I binned it immediately in disgust. I posted my complaint on their website but I bet it fell on deaf ears - can anyone enlighten me?
 
Cannot imagine working in Quark

I am amazed that anyone still uses this app by choice. ID is not perfect, but Quark is unbearable. v7 will do nothing radical enough to change that. Kill it!
 
Yeah, I forgot about that! InDesign is better in that respect. If nothing else, that seems like a relatively simple thing to solve. Also, has anyone else noticed that Xpress's zoom in/out behavior goes nutso with larger documents.

Hmmm... maybe I love InDesign more than I'm letting on!
 
dazzer21 said:
can anyone enlighten me?

Software originally designed for publications hasn't taken the needs of those who work with display material to account. What's the point in working 1:1 sizes when you can only generate 720pt text? ;)

It doesn't bother me so much; working at 10 or 25% occasionally.


blilly said:
I am amazed that anyone still uses this app by choice.

It's a relatively minor thing for a freelance or small setup to transition. It's another thing when on larger scales. The only thing that matters is that a) that work is of sufficient aesthetic and technical quality to meet expectations and b) it meets all deadlines and budgets.

Everything that doesn't address those two priorities in a busy setup is change for change's sake and is something that Quark is counting on. At this stage, they're scrambling to stem the flow of customers to InDesign so this is evolution, not revolution.

I expect to see more free features come as a 7.5 release and 8 to come very soon relative to Quark's past release history.
 
Blue Velvet said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Velvet
InDesign — creatively-inspiring but a bit cumbersome and palette-heavy.
Quark — clunky but extremely fast in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing.

I only agree to this to a point. Both apps are cumbersome if you don't know what you're doing in. Most people I know (myself included) that know both apps well are far more efficient in InDesign. To me, good keyboard shortcuts equal speed and InDesign KILLS Quark when it comes to keyboard shortcuts. I find using an effective keyboard shortcut set helps me stay out of the palettes you complain about. I really don't mind the palettes though. If you think about it, most of the palettes in InDesign are dialouge boxes in Quark. The advantage to a palette is that it doesn't hijack your document like a dialouge box does.

Take the links palette for example. In InDesign, you can click on an image, see it's info, update it, whatever else you need to do, then click on another image and so on. However, in Quark, if you have your links dialouge box up, you can't do anything in the document until you hit "okay" or "cancel."

I'll take the palettes anyday over tons of dialouge boxes. Especially if you have dual monitors.
 
Quark Shmark...

As an IT guy who has 40+ Quark users to support, I hope Quark (the company) go bankrupt and fold. 2-3 of my tech support calls a day are because Quark started acting flaky on somebody. It is by far the most troublesome app we have at my company and probably the most troublesome app I've ever had to support anywhere. I pray to Jebus we don't upgrade. I can't imagine what the Product ID for Version 7 will be. Probably an encrypted 4000 year old Incan astrological sequence that you have to type in while chanting a passage from the Bible on one foot...Actually that will probably be easier than the 80 character one they have now!
 
ewoh24 said:
As an IT guy who has 40+ Quark users to support, I hope Quark (the company) go bankrupt and fold. 2-3 of my tech support calls a day are because Quark started acting flaky on somebody. It is by far the most troublesome app we have at my company and probably the most troublesome app I've ever had to support anywhere. I pray to Jebus we don't upgrade. I can't imagine what the Product ID for Version 7 will be. Probably an encrypted 4000 year old Incan astrological sequence that you have to type in while chanting a passage from the Bible on one foot...Actually that will probably be easier than the 80 character one they have now!

Haha I was in the same boat until I insisted we switch to InDesign. It was tough at first but now all my users LOVE IT! Quarks activation code was the works part... the damn thing was 100 freaking characters. I actually just used a hacked version for 4.1 because of the damn floppy disks. Down with Quark!
 
beatle888 said:
new features from quark are rare, so do i really want to buy in on quark 7 when history shows they lag with application enhancements?

But do not forget that they are other reasons for which Quark stays on version 3.32 for years... The industry didn't need anything else! ;-)

When used properly, Quark was much faster and precise than anything else (in a pre-os-x era)... :rolleyes:

It funny because it seems that the reason that made it a great software (no need to update features for a long time - 3.32 / 4) soon became the reason for dumping it... :D
 
cait-sith said:
wow, you design guys (and girls) are almost as bad as us engineers and programmers when it comes to your tools.

And for the same reasons: Those are all fields where technical precision counts -- tremendously -- but the actual work is creative.

So, a good tool is one that lets you focus on the creative aspects of the job and takes care of the technical. However, there are two problems: First, there is no dividing line between 'technical' and 'creative', and secondly no two people's minds work quite the same way.

Therefore the product requirement reads like this: Do whatever the user wants done automatically automatically, and let them do whatever they want manually. Choose the defaults the user uses 90% of the time for automatic processes, but make them easy to change when needed. (But protect them from being changed acidentally.)

In other words: Read my mind, and do what I'm thinking. No one's managed it yet, but if someone is used to a program that generally works the way they want, they will like it. And they will dislike anything they aren't used to, or works even slightly differently.
 
morespce54 said:
But do not forget that they are other reasons for which Quark stays on version 3.32 for years... The industry didn't need anything else! ;-)

When used properly, Quark was much faster and precise than anything else (in a pre-os-x era)... :rolleyes:

It funny because it seems that the reason that made it a great software (no need to update features for a long time - 3.32 / 4) soon became the reason for dumping it... :D



no no no :)

come on. dont tell me that it didnt need anything else. we dont NEED a color pallet, we could just use the color dialog window but we appreciate having the color pallet. so....why not key commmands for the tool pallet? we dont NEED them but we sure would appreciate them.

the only reason people have used quark so long is because they didnt really have any competition after page maker. now that indesigned is positioned to dominate quark...well things are getting interesting and people are choosing which side of the line they need to be on. i have to know both as thoroughly as possible which is tough because one studio might use quark so im on quark for four months, then another studio uses indesign so im on indesign for five months...its hard going back and forth like that...but i like it, it keeps me on my toes.
 
central183 said:
I've heard this problem repeatedly. I can give you my spin on it. In my experience, I never got the chance to go to design school. I was very technically savvy, which got me a gig setting up a print designers office about 6 years ago. He saw that I was intuitive and understood "complicated" things like layers in Photoshop or perhaps concatenating paths in Illustrator. However, I did not have good design sense. This working relationship has worked quite well. He has 30+ years of experience and knows how a design should look. However, he is dangerous on the Mac. He can't even figure out how to add a "no break" character to InDesign. Often times, bleeds are missing. Panatones colors are set used for 4 color jobs. I am the one who translates the design to the software.

You have your right brainers and left brainers. Finding one a student who can use both sides well is rare. We've had freelancers come to the shop with design skills and lofty ideas, how ever we wind up spending months teaching them how to mask, run filters, and name layers in Photoshop. Often times, simple skills like naming layers in Photoshop don't exist. InDesign files are a mess with dozens of phantom boxes and strokes. Files are placed haphazardly all over the server with what ever name the designer was thinking of.

I believe that we should teach more software skills along with a class of "naming files" and server organization. People who shoot out of design school are complete slobs. If they aren't neat and organized with file names and photoshop layers, it will cost your shop money cleaning up after them.

Many shops have the chain of command where the senior designer tells the junior designer what to do. The junior designer tells the production artist what to do and so on. The kid that comes in at ground level should be neat, clean and efficient with software. It's likely the designers above him/her already know what the design should look like. After years of direction, the entry designer will gain momentum and confidence working under experienced designers and move up the chain. He/She will find that their left brain will begin to work with the right allowing them to be creative and technically savvy at the same time.

This is again why I feel strongly about the CS suite. Learning software is very tough if you want to keep up with cutting edge design. Learning one Adobe product can be much easier once you've worked with another. Having to learn Quark, after working with Adobe Aps is like learning a second language. It may not take some people long to learn DTP's, but Photoshop and Illustrator can take years to perfect. It's not uncommon for my Photoshop files to have 100 layers after a couple of hours of instruction from the designer. He is finicky, and often wants to go back to a step from 1/2 hour ago. I have to be careful to build layers in such a way that I can find them quickly and bring them back up to edit. Some of our Illustrator work involves 5,000 sq. ft. mansions. The file is enormous, and I must keep it organized and easy to edit. If I'm not quick enough, the shop loses money. We've had "designers" come in to work on our files, and almost every time, a mess is made and the job takes twice as long due to poor software skills.


well said. as a freelancer i work at many different studios and come across a lot of work done by other freelancers, designers and art directors. you wouldnt believe how lazy some of the work is. people need to start thinking about production as a craft. do it well, do it right, make it bullet proof. but i dont think this is what designers should be focused on. only the production artist. we typically rebuild what the designers/art directors send our way.
 
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