Questions about cars for people living in Canada

[u49aa2]

Hi guys. Basically i am moving to Montreal next month and i will be living there for about 6-8 years. I have been sorting up my finances for the last few months, i think i am all set but i still have few questions.

i have been looking for cars (very important to get one ASAP) and i have narrowed my options to: Camaro, Mustange (these are my main two options), Altima coupe, Passat CC, and infinity G sedan. The car will be new and 2011-2012 model.

1) For somebody who is 28 yrs old, male, no credit history or car insurance history in Canada, with international license (i will be applying for Canadian license when i settle), how much the car insurance will be (monthly)? i have tried one of the online car insurance companies and it gave me a $200/month quote for the Camaro 1LT (6 cylinders, 2011, brand new).

2) Also by how much would you think an 8 cylinders car be more expense than a 6 cylinder car in term of the monthly insurance payment?

3) in term of the cost of car maintenance and service, availability of spare parts, and how easy to fix the car, which car brand is most superior in Canada? is it American? Japanese? or European?

4) i am sure some members might think all the above cars are waste of money and will cost me a lot of money in term petrol, insurance, and service . I do understand this but please entertain my foolishness and please help me with the questions Though i am open for any suggestion of different cars but please nothing similar to prius, civic, corola, camry, caprice, lumina, accord..etc

Thanks in advance, any advice will be appreciated

 

[paolo-]

I'm not too sure about the insurance questions so I won't answer them.

3) You can go on the manufacturers canadian version of the website to get the consumption in L/100km. But basically it depends on the size of the car more than the number of cylinders. 4 cylinders tend to use less gas, 6 cylinders can be comparable while 8 cylinders tend to be considerably higher.

4) I think you can do the math fairly easily, mind you, you'll be stuck in traffic in Montreal, so you might want to take a figure a bit higher than the advertise city consumption.

5) For service, Japanese and North American cars are the most available through Canada. Mind you in Montreal you shouldn't have trouble finding part/service for any make.

6) I don't see the point of getting a car if you're in Montreal. Especially if you live and work on the island. There is practically no parking, there's always way too much traffic and the public transport is very good. Actually, you would probably like a metro pass even if you have a car. If you live off the island getting in is ******, the bridges are always stuck. Then again there are trains that can get you from the suburbs in. Oh yeah, and people drive like maniacs in Montreal and it's illegal to turn right at a red light (only city in North-America).
If you really want to get a new car, both the camaro and mustang are bad choices for Canada. Winter is harsh and rear wheel drive cars SUCK in snow/ice, you loose control way too easily. Especially if you're not used to driving in the winter. Actually, most people with that kind of car drive another car in the winter just because it's too dangerous and not practical. Also consider that you will need by law to have winter tires.

 

[u49aa2]

Thanks Paolo, appreciate the advice. See...very likely i will be living in Nun's Island and the nature of my work and family commitments will require me to go back and forth between home, work, and downtown frequently. my work will require me to come ASAP 24/7 to the site very frequently, this might be 8 pm, 1 am, or even 5 am, so relaying on public transport (from my experience living in various cities all over the world) is risky and i don't think i will be comfortable with. Don't get me wrong, i will for sure use public transport when convenient, but i still need a car.

If you think the Camaro and Mustange are not a good choice. What do you suggest then? (something in the same price/luxury range)

Winter tires shouldn't be an issue, i heard you can buy cheap ones ($65/each)? correct me if i am wrong.

 

[quagmire]

If you think the Camaro and Mustange are not a good choice. What do you suggest then? (something in the same price/luxury range)

Winter tires shouldn't be an issue, i heard you can buy cheap ones ($65/each)? correct me if i am wrong.

Modern RWD cars though are not bad in the snow with stability control and better weight distribution given you get a good pair of snow tires( I will never cheap out on tires. It's what touches the road), but AWD is best. So I would get something that is AWD like a BMW 3 series with xDrive or Audi with Quattro( not sure on Canadian pricing, but a 328 would be in the price range of vehicles like the Camaro SS and Mustang GT here in the US). FWD is the next best choice. I like the Buick Regal Turbo since it's basically an Opel Insignia and was tuned to be driven on the Autobahn so it is really stable.

 

[Apple OC]

Some sound advice is ... save your money and buy a solid used car that is cheaper to insure. Camaros and Mustangs are terrible in the Winter up in Canada.

 

[u49aa2]

Modern RWD cars though are not bad in the snow with stability control and better weight distribution given you get a good pair of snow tires( I will never cheap out on tires. It's what touches the road), but AWD is best. So I would get something that is AWD like a BMW 3 series with xDrive or Audi with Quattro( not sure on Canadian pricing, but a 328 would be in the price range of vehicles like the Camaro SS and Mustang GT here in the US). FWD is the next best choice. I like the Buick Regal Turbo since it's basically an Opel Insignia and was tuned to be driven on the Autobahn so it is really stable.

Thanks quagmire. I have looked at the cars you mentioned. As for the BMW and the Audi they look nice, but you do get less for what you pay in compare to the Camaro and the Mustange. I mean in term of accessories and options. a full option Camaro LT1 and Mustange Coupe 2012 are about $39000. for the BMW x-drive sedan, and the audi A4 with quatro its about $42000-$440000 and you get much less options (no navigation..etc). However, i have to admit i have never thought about the AWD, RWD, and FWD. I guess maybe because where i live now its mostly sunny and you never think about that. I will be going to the nearby dealership and check the audi and the bmw, just to see how comfortable they are. See i am a big guy and not sure if the BMW 328 will fit me well . The Audi A4 looks a bit larger, i will see.

As for the regal turbo. I have to say i am not familiar with this brand. the car looks Ok and you get a lot of options for what you pay, but you don't think that the a V4 is a bit under kill? I mean 4 cylinder will sure save me money but..don't know, it might look a bit immature but i don't want to fall a sleep waiting for the car to speed up from 20 km/hr to 100km/hr .

Thanks again.

I have to confess, the reason i am leaning more toward the Camaro and the Mustange is because, i have always bought family type of cars due to different social circumstances, and never was able to buy sporty cars. Now as i am moving on i want to start a new life and get what i want and these two cars were on the top of my list. Do you think i would absolutely regret buying any of these cars? because whatever car i buy, i am planning to keep for at least 6-8 years

If everybody think it is absolutely a mistake to buy Cam/Must. then I will seriously consider the Audi and the BMW mentioned by quagmire.

 

[u49aa2]

Some sound advice is ... save your money and buy a solid used car that is cheaper to insure. Camaros and Mustangs are terrible in the Winter up in Canada.

used car is a no no territory for me. Too risky, a lot of head, and need a lot of experience to pick the right/safe one. Thanks though

 

[quagmire]

Thanks quagmire. I have looked at the cars you mentioned. As for the BMW and the Audi they look nice, but you do get less for what you pay in compare to the Camaro and the Mustange. I mean in term of accessories and options. a full option Camaro LT1 and Mustange Coupe 2012 are about $39000. for the BMW x-drive sedan, and the audi A4 with quatro its about $42000-$440000 and you get much less options (no navigation..etc). However, i have to admit i have never thought about the AWD, RWD, and FWD. I guess maybe because where i live now its mostly sunny and you never think about that. I will be going to the nearby dealership and check the audi and the bmw, just to see how comfortable they are. See i am a big guy and not sure if the BMW 328 will fit me well . The Audi A4 looks a bit larger, i will see.

Yeah, you'll definitely get more for your money out of the Camaro and Mustang, but the BMW will drive better and handle the snow better with AWD.

As for the regal turbo. I have to say i am not familiar with this brand. the car looks Ok and you get a lot of options for what you pay, but you don't think that the a V4 is a bit under kill? I mean 4 cylinder will sure save me money but..don't know, it might look a bit immature but i don't want to fall a sleep waiting for the car to speed up from 20 km/hr to 100km/hr .

You're not familiar with Buick? I know Pontiac was big up in Canada, but Buick has been around forever.

Anyway, with fuel economy becoming more important these days, you will see more and more cars with forced induction four cylinders over the use of a NA V6( and same with FI V6's over NA V8's). The Regal Turbo produces 220 HP and 254 lb.-ft. of torque which is 10 HP less and 50 lb.-ft more torque than the 328i. So power is comparable. The only big draw back to the Regal Turbo is that the 2.0T suffers a little bit of turbo lag. It's not an issue for me, but just throwing it out there.

Also, again depending on price up in Canada since you're a bigger person, check out the Buick LaCrosse. I prefer the Regal due to the sportier drive, but the LaCrosse isn't bad either and is bigger than the Regal. For 2012, the 3.6 SIDI V6 is a no-cost option and also has an AWD option with the V6. For 2012, if you opt for the 4 banger you get GM's new eAssist system( it's a mild hybrid) standard which boosts fuel economy to 25 MPG city 37 MPG HWY.

For future reference there is no such thing as a V4. All 4 bangers are Inline 4's. Unless you get a V8 that shuts down 4 cylinders when cruising which then it becomes a V4.

 

[KnightWRX]

Yeah, you'll definitely get more for your money out of the Camaro and Mustang, but the BMW will drive better and handle the snow better with AWD.

And take it from someone who lives here and has lived here for over 30 years : AWD is absolute overkill in Montreal and in the suburbs around it. You don't need it, it's not really noticeably better and a FWD/RWD with good winter tires will be just as good (65$ for winter tires ? Maybe 13" ones, no-name brand like Motomaster. On a Camaro or Mustang ? Think 130$ + per tire).

I say that and drive a Subaru... that should tell you something. By the time you get out of bed, the roads have been cleared of snow. Even when they aren't, people don't get stuck unless they are idiots who don't know how to drive. And those same people who get stuck in an AWD vehicule.

Insurance will be dependant on each and every case. Don't listen to anyone who answers your questions about it. Call the companies yourself and get quotes. That's the only way you will know. Many offer online submission processes or have 1-800 lines you could call. Here are a few :

- SSQ
- La Capitale
- Belair Direct
- RBC Insurance
- Desjardins Insurance
- BNC Insurance
- ING

As for the car itself, I wouldn't pay what they are asking for Mustangs and Camaros. Over 30k for those gas guzzlers ? 40k+ for the V8 versions ? Screw that. You can get an awesome Subaru WRX/STI for that price. Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart/Evolution. Hyundai Genesis Coupe for even cheaper. Scion Tc if you really want to lowball.

If you want a good idea of the Montreal scene as far as performance goes, try Montreal Racing. The community there is good and contrary to the name, they aren't about Street Racing (at least, not like it was when it first started in the late 90s).

 

[quagmire]

As for the car itself, I wouldn't pay what they are asking for Mustangs and Camaros. Over 30k for those gas guzzlers ? 40k+ for the V8 versions ? Screw that. You can get an awesome Subaru WRX/STI for that price. Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart/Evolution. Hyundai Genesis Coupe for even cheaper. Scion Tc if you really want to lowball.

I'll take a Camaro SS and Mustang GT over the Subaru WRX/STI any day. Just different taste in cars.

 

[KnightWRX]

I'll take a Camaro SS and Mustang GT over the Subaru WRX/STI any day. Just different taste in cars.

Sure, if you want gas guzzling and straight line performance. I'd rather have fun in the twisties. And heck, even in a straight line the stock Subarus eat the stock muscle cars. Not to mention you can actually fit people on the Impreza/Lancer rear seat and put stuff in their trunks.

But yeah, you're allowed to have "different taste" in cars.

 

[u49aa2]

Anyway, with fuel economy becoming more important these days, you will see more and more cars with forced induction four cylinders over the use of a NA V6( and same with FI V6's over NA V8's). The Regal Turbo produces 220 HP and 254 lb.-ft. of torque which is 10 HP less and 50 lb.-ft more torque than the 328i. So power is comparable. The only big draw back to the Regal Turbo is that the 2.0T suffers a little bit of turbo lag. It's not an issue for me, but just throwing it out there.

Also, again depending on price up in Canada since you're a bigger person, check out the Buick LaCrosse. I prefer the Regal due to the sportier drive, but the LaCrosse isn't bad either and is bigger than the Regal. For 2012, the 3.6 SIDI V6 is a no-cost option and also has an AWD option with the V6. For 2012, if you opt for the 4 banger you get GM's new eAssist system( it's a mild hybrid) standard which boosts fuel economy to 25 MPG city 37 MPG HWY.

For future reference there is no such thing as a V4. All 4 bangers are Inline 4's. Unless you get a V8 that shuts down 4 cylinders when cruising which then it becomes a V4.

The Lacrosse looks bigger, have the AWD and had a lot of options. I will check it for sure.

Thanks for all the info, and also thanks for your time mate

 

[u49aa2]

And take it from someone who lives here and has lived here for over 30 years : AWD is absolute overkill in Montreal and in the suburbs around it. You don't need it, it's not really noticeably better and a FWD/RWD with good winter tires will be just as good (65$ for winter tires ? Maybe 13" ones, no-name brand like Motomaster. On a Camaro or Mustang ? Think 130$ + per tire).

I say that and drive a Subaru... that should tell you something. By the time you get out of bed, the roads have been cleared of snow. Even when they aren't, people don't get stuck unless they are idiots who don't know how to drive. And those same people who get stuck in an AWD vehicule.

This what i was thinking initially, buy the Camaro, buy a good pairs of winter tires and enjoy the car, up until i heard the few notes from the guys, about how difficult to drive in Montreal with RWD cars.

Insurance will be dependant on each and every case. Don't listen to anyone who answers your questions about it. Call the companies yourself and get quotes. That's the only way you will know. Many offer online submission processes or have 1-800 lines you could call. Here are a few :

- SSQ
- La Capitale
- Belair Direct
- RBC Insurance
- Desjardins Insurance
- BNC Insurance
- ING

I think this what i will do. Thanks Knight

As for the car itself, I wouldn't pay what they are asking for Mustangs and Camaros. Over 30k for those gas guzzlers ? 40k+ for the V8 versions ? Screw that. You can get an awesome Subaru WRX/STI for that price. Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart/Evolution. Hyundai Genesis Coupe for even cheaper. Scion Tc if you really want to lowball.

I see what you are getting at but i have to agree with quagmire, even though these cars are more efficient, unfortunately they don't fit my taste. So putting money and cost a side, from your experience living in Montreal, do you think it is not a very terrible idea to get a Camaro/Mustange as the only car for a responsible person with not very bad driving skills

If you want a good idea of the Montreal scene as far as performance goes, try Montreal Racing. The community there is good and contrary to the name, they aren't about Street Racing (at least, not like it was when it first started in the late 90s).

Thanks i will check this website

 

[quagmire]

Sure, if you want gas guzzling and straight line performance. I'd rather have fun in the twisties. And heck, even in a straight line the stock Subarus eat the stock muscle cars. Not to mention you can actually fit people on the Impreza/Lancer rear seat and put stuff in their trunks.

But yeah, you're allowed to have "different taste" in cars.

What's with the talking down to others attitude? The WRX/STI are great vehicles, but I would rather have the Camaro and Mustang. FYI, Car&Driver took a Mustang GT and it was able to keep up with the M3 around the track. The Camaro and Mustang are not just straight line performers anymore. The Challenger still is though.

 

[KnightWRX]

This what i was thinking initially, buy the Camaro, buy a good pairs of winter tires and enjoy the car, up until i heard the few notes from the guys, about how difficult to drive in Montreal with RWD cars.

So putting money and cost a side, from your experience living in Montreal, do you think it is not a very terrible idea to get a Camaro/Mustange as the only car for a responsible person with not very bad driving skills

RWD cars are fine in Montreal. Don't be an idiot with it, don't park where you shouldn't (seriously, ground clearance is the biggest issue when there's a lot of snow. An AWD sedan ain't much good with 2 wheels off the ground or on pure ice, unless it has a limited slip differential, same as a RWD or FWD car).

A lot of people have RWD vehicules and go through winter without a hitch with them. I've seen women in SUVs spinning on all 4s, and that was back when I had my Integra, with a 2" suspension drop and cheapo 14" Pirellis on the 4 corners. I would hand-brake donuts around them and drive home without even losing traction on a wheel unless I wanted that wheel to lose traction (I know that's a FWD vehicule).

A lot of people don't know this, but Subarus are rear biased. More power goes to the rear wheels than the front in the WRX and the STI (and the STI, with the DCCD, can throw as much as 90% to the rear wheels, based on user input). You can drift them in a snowy parking lot using just the throttle because of this. Yet they are still considered the "ultimate winter car". Go figure.

What's with the talking down to others attitude?

I'm actually talking down to the cars themselves. Unless you designed them, you have no business taking my comments on them personally. Oh and keeping up with an M3 ? In the twisties ? Is that thing loaded on the back of a tow truck or something ?

I hardly consider the pappies at Car & Driver capable enough to actually demonstrate cornering ability. Those guys are stuck in the 50s. An old's man publication. At least quote something performance oriented...

 

[Burnsey]

Thanks quagmire. I have looked at the cars you mentioned. As for the BMW and the Audi they look nice, but you do get less for what you pay in compare to the Camaro and the Mustange. I mean in term of accessories and options. a full option Camaro LT1 and Mustange Coupe 2012 are about $39000. for the BMW x-drive sedan, and the audi A4 with quatro its about $42000-$440000 and you get much less options (no navigation..etc). However, i have to admit i have never thought about the AWD, RWD, and FWD. I guess maybe because where i live now its mostly sunny and you never think about that. I will be going to the nearby dealership and check the audi and the bmw, just to see how comfortable they are. See i am a big guy and not sure if the BMW 328 will fit me well . The Audi A4 looks a bit larger, i will see.

As for the regal turbo. I have to say i am not familiar with this brand. the car looks Ok and you get a lot of options for what you pay, but you don't think that the a V4 is a bit under kill? I mean 4 cylinder will sure save me money but..don't know, it might look a bit immature but i don't want to fall a sleep waiting for the car to speed up from 20 km/hr to 100km/hr .

Thanks again.

I have to confess, the reason i am leaning more toward the Camaro and the Mustange is because, i have always bought family type of cars due to different social circumstances, and never was able to buy sporty cars. Now as i am moving on i want to start a new life and get what i want and these two cars were on the top of my list. Do you think i would absolutely regret buying any of these cars? because whatever car i buy, i am planning to keep for at least 6-8 years

If everybody think it is absolutely a mistake to buy Cam/Must. then I will seriously consider the Audi and the BMW mentioned by quagmire.

I think in the long term you will regret both the Mustang and the Camaro. Both are great looking and attention grabbing, but reliability is questionable, fuel costs will be fairly high, insurance will be killer and they will depreciate like rocks. There won't be much in the way of comfort and practicality either considering they're muscle cars.

Your budget is very good, you can definitely find cars that are both practical and sporty. My recommendations would be a Lexus IS350 or Cadillac CTS. The Lexus looks good, is quite fast, has 4 doors and the quality is top notch. The CTS is larger and roomier and bolder in its look. You may need to search used to find them in your budget. If you don't mind FWD then the Buick Lacrosse is definitely worth a look.

Personally I would opt for a lightly used 2-3 year old car rather than new. Something like a last gen 5 series (2004-2009), Lexus GS350 or GS460 etc... can be had for $30k and under if you look. I wouldn't recommend the German luxury cars if you plan on owning it past the warranty. They're amazing cars but quality is questionable and parts are expensive.

 

[Apple OC]

for added fun ... only if you have access to the country

 

[quagmire]

I think in the long term you will regret both the Mustang and the Camaro. Both are great looking and attention grabbing, but reliability is questionable, fuel costs will be fairly high, insurance will be killer and they will depreciate like rocks. There won't be much in the way of comfort and practicality either considering they're muscle cars.

I haven't heard about any major problems with the Mustang and Camaro is too new to have any long term reliability stats. But, the Small Block V8's have always been solid engines. They respond really well to modification, etc. The Camaro also shares the CTS's 3.6 liter V6. American cars have improved in their quality.

If he does own these vehicles for 6-8 years, they won't be worth much anyway no matter which vehicle he buys.

 

[u49aa2]

RWD cars are fine in Montreal. Don't be an idiot with it, don't park where you shouldn't (seriously, ground clearance is the biggest issue when there's a lot of snow. An AWD sedan ain't much good with 2 wheels off the ground or on pure ice, unless it has a limited slip differential, same as a RWD or FWD car).

A lot of people have RWD vehicules and go through winter without a hitch with them. I've seen women in SUVs spinning on all 4s, and that was back when I had my Integra, with a 2" suspension drop and cheapo 14" Pirellis on the 4 corners. I would hand-brake donuts around them and drive home without even losing traction on a wheel unless I wanted that wheel to lose traction (I know that's a FWD vehicule).

Thanks Knight, this winter/ice thing looks like a headache. Now i know why i always hated the snow

 

[quagmire]

I'm actually talking down to the cars themselves. Unless you designed them, you have no business taking my comments on them personally. Oh and keeping up with an M3 ? In the twisties ? Is that thing loaded on the back of a tow truck or something ?

I hardly consider the pappies at Car & Driver capable enough to actually demonstrate cornering ability. Those guys are stuck in the 50s. An old's man publication. At least quote something performance oriented...

How about Nurburgring times then? Camaro SS does it in 8:20 while E92 335i does it in 8:26. Both the Camaro SS and 335i have similar straight line performance of 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, etc.

 

[KnightWRX]

If he does own these vehicles for 6-8 years, they won't be worth much anyway no matter which vehicle he buys.

That's false. 6-8 year old Japanese cars retain their values very well. Hondas, Toyotas, the used market for these is plainly outrageous. If you take an equivalently priced American or Korean, here in Montreal at least, you will pay half of what you will for a Japanese car after 6-8 years.

Germans are also very good. Seriously, Korean and American vehicules are the pits of resale up here.

How about Nurburgring times then? Camaro SS does it in 8:20 while E92 335i does it in 8:26. Both the Camaro SS and 335i have similar straight line performance of 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, etc.

4.8 seconds uh ? Just the same time my 12k$ cheaper Subaru WRX does it in. When am I supposed to be impressed exactly ? Nurburgring numbers are worthless without a direct comparison with the same driver.

Thanks Knight, this winter/ice thing looks like a headache. Now i know why i always hated the snow

Most fun time of the year to be a car enthusiast if you ask me. Big empty parking lot, fresh snow on the ground and lots of fun to be had until the fuzz gets there and tells you to take a hike.

 

[quagmire]

That's false. 6-8 year old Japanese cars retain their values very well. Hondas, Toyotas, the used market for these is plainly outrageous. If you take an equivalently priced American or Korean, here in Montreal at least, you will pay half of what you will for a Japanese car after 6-8 years.

Germans are also very good. Seriously, Korean and American vehicules are the pits of resale up here.

Japanese cars do hold their value really well, but if you're going to own a car for the long term, resale for me at least won't be a big factor into my decision.

I am surprised Germans hold their value there. They usually depreciate the most here since no one wants to own one out of warranty due to the high maintenance costs.

4.8 seconds uh ? Just the same time my 12k$ cheaper Subaru WRX does it in. When am I supposed to be impressed exactly ? Nurburgring numbers are worthless without a direct comparison with the same driver.

I would still choose the Camaro SS over the WRX. You may not like the Camaro, but it doesn't mean it is a bad car the way you're implying here.

 

[u49aa2]

Your budget is very good, you can definitely find cars that are both practical and sporty. My recommendations would be a Lexus IS350 or Cadillac CTS. The Lexus looks good, is quite fast, has 4 doors and the quality is top notch. The CTS is larger and roomier and bolder in its look. You may need to search used to find them in your budget. If you don't mind FWD then the Buick Lacrosse is definitely worth a look.

Personally I would opt for a lightly used 2-3 year old car rather than new. Something like a last gen 5 series (2004-2009), Lexus GS350 or GS460 etc... can be had for $30k and under if you look. I wouldn't recommend the German luxury cars if you plan on owning it past the warranty. They're amazing cars but quality is questionable and parts are expensive.

I have been advised about buying a used car from a lot of people around me. As i i will be getting a better car for less money. But as i said before this is associated with a lot of headache, you always need somebody with who knows what to check in the car to make sure that it is perfect, and i don't think i have this person.

quagmire: If he does own these vehicles for 6-8 years, they won't be worth much anyway no matter which vehicle he buys.

I am buying flat in the same time, so i am trying not to stretch my finance a lot, but of course if i earn any extra cash i would not mind changing the car after 5 years

 

[panoz7]

I'm in a similar situation, minus the Canada part. I've got ~$40k to spend, am pretty young (23) and want something performance oriented. I narrowed it down to the G35 and the BMW 135i.

I ended up deciding on the BMW, though I readily admit that it was the emotional decision rather than the rational decision. My feeling is that I'm young, and now's the time to make the "stupid" decision and to get something fun. I might not be able to do that in the future and didn't want to regret my decision.

The things I liked about the BMW: it's ridiculously fast, handles well (but not perfectly), maintenance is included for 50k miles, the DCT transmission is incredible, and it sounds amazing.

The things I didn't like about the BMW: expensive for the level of standard equipment, smallish trunk, potential german reliability issues, crappy city mileage.

The things I liked about the infiniti: lots of standard equipment on the manual transmission model (nav, backup camera, power everything, keyless ignition), reasonably fast, good looking, big back seat, handles well

The things I didn't like about the infiniti: a lot of NVH (you can feel the engine vibrating through the shifter and the pedals), not as fast as the BMW, feels large

I sat in the Ford Mustang GT at the dealer and didn't like the driving position. It feels like a much bigger car than the others. I'd imagine the chevy is going to feel similar.

One thing I'd consider if I were you is getting a Certified Pre Owned rather than a new model. You can often save a fair bit of money and the warranty ends up getting extended for most manufacturers so you still have the peace of mind that if something breaks in the next few years it will be covered. For reference I almost bought a 2009 BMW 335i xdrive that had navigation and the sport package for $33k. Just something to consider.

 

[wordoflife]

OP, have you looked at some of the new Hyundais? They're pretty nice actually.