Random FCPX ramblings...

Discussion in 'Digital Video' started by smali, Jun 26, 2011.

  1. smali macrumors regular

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    Jul 19, 2010
    #1
    With FCPX is Apple just making it easier for everyone to be able to produce great looking video? No need for many non-profit organisations to waste precious recources on hiring a "specialist".

    Is FCPX the start of the demystification of the film-making process? Same thing happened with photography (to the dismay of "gatekeeper-pros") when the dslr and photoshop came along.

    Does Apple see a very different future, where the kind of work that was handled by editing facilities now passed onto small shops and individuals? In the graphic/web design world this is already happening, large design houses crumbling due to the high costs. Small shops/freelancers more flexible, lower overheads seem to be doing very well.

    Are the "upset-pros" actually the technicians, mac-monkeys, button pushers who realise they are becoming largely irrelevant? What do these "pro's" edit anyways that has any worth to society, most of the movies coming out are horrible and everything on tv is a waste of time. Youtube/Vimeo is far more entertaining these days.

    Just some random thoughts, "upset-pros" feel free to downrate if it makes you feel better.
     
  2. Chaos123x macrumors 68000

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    #2
    Sorry but the Pro's have nothing to fear, tools are always changing but you still need talented people to use those tools.

    It's easy to use a paint brush but that doesnt make you a artist.


    I have seen editing go from film, 1-inch, to 3/4, to betacam tape to tape cutting, to Avid, and then to FCP. Each time making easier for normal people to afford and use the equipment needed. But that didn't stop people from needing pros or from people making money.


    Clients that want to do it themselves and not pay a dime, I say go right ahead, they get what they pay for.

    I'm embracing FCP X and have started learning to use it right now, in the mean time I'm cutting all my recent projects in FCP7.
     
  3. Sammy Cat macrumors member

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    Jul 28, 2010
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    #3
    Thanks for taking the time to create a thoughtful post

    I tend to think that this shot by Apple has more to do with limiting quality content and the capability of those exact same small guys that you think that Apple's technology is going to empower. With the low cost of hi-quality video-cameras, and the low cost of editing software, the "pros" have already been threatened this past decade. The real threat is online distribution. Now that has been worked out with the movie studios, it is Apple's time to keep the little guy out. There is no better way than providing him with a product that can't compete with what the big guys (studios) use. It is a total reversal of what Apple has done up until this point. Remember editing software used to run in excess of $100,000-$200,000. For $1000 you could compete edit wise FCP. Now that some $3000 DSLRs are shooting footage that compares to a $500,000 camera we have a problem. Remember you could be the best editor, have a perfect script, along with great acting, but it still wouldn't amount to **** because the video looked like ****. So now you have full function editors, cheap cameras that produce $500,000 quality video that don't require expensive film, and then throw in social networking and free casts, coupled along with free online distribution and what do you get? You get a semi-nervous studio executive, and an average Joe Blow with the ability to make entertainment.

    The issue at hand is that when Apple makes a decision to act, they go about the change full speed ahead without looking back. This irks a lot of their users. Point example: Blu-Ray and the total lack of support for it. As a consumer we lose because of Steve JOBS' one path minded goal to limit content to Apple server farms i.e. the cloud. This same tactic is now being pushed onto the movie editors.

    The issue editors have is that with FCPX they are losing CONTROL, freedom, and the ability to operate in a viable work space. It is not that they can't use FCP7 anymore to get their job done, its the problem that awaits them in the future once FCP7 is no longer supported. They see the handwriting on the wall, and what is written is that you can use a new editor with less features, and less control. Less features and control from an editing standpoint and less control for how you can distribute your media do present major problems for these people.

    Users are angry. Imagine buying a version of new Microsoft Word, and Word no longer having the spell check tool, and also not allowing you to double space. How can you turn in your term paper single spaced? Word then becomes worthless to you because you can't get the job done with it. That is what users of FCPX are now facing.

    What all of this goes back to is CONTROL. From a monetary standpoint, Apple wants to be the gatekeeper. As long as open markets exists and there is no government intervention, i.e. consumers still have viable choices, they are going to fail miserably. Apple forgets that consumers, especially in technology sectors can give up their alliances easily to superior products. Apple seems to have forgotten this and fallen victim to their own mantra ************.

    While Apple pursues its avenue of CONTROL, which results in limiting opportunities or freedoms of usage, it open opportunities in the market for other companies to compete. While APPLE ignores its consumers, somebody steps in and pays attention to them. That is what the market economy and competition is about. It is the extreme arrogance of the Apple management using their heavy hand to force their will on the consumer.

    Apple was the go to guy first for publishing, then movie editing. These were the core cultists. They PUBLISH, they PRODUCE, they MAKE. They are were the DOERS. They were the original MOUTHPIECES. The DEVOTED. Now Apple's core products serve passive consumers. Passive consumers are not diehards. Passive consumers graze on one field to the next. Apple's new strategy is to tend to their flock and that flock consists of iPods and iPads. Nothing else matters, hence, FCPX. That is your reward for being a blowhard all of these years. The cult is dead.
     
  4. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #4
    The industry already started down this path a decade ago.

    I love the democratization of media and the ability to make a great looking video has been accessible for a long time. It still takes talent of course and that's what trips most people up.

    The industry already started down this path a decade ago.
    The industry already started down this path a decade ago.

    I know way more small shop owners and individual owner/operators that are disappointed w/FCPX than I do large shop owners and staff editors. Of course large shops with staff editors is a pretty rare thing in LA.

    The "upset-pros" are mainly talented, hardworking individuals who are upset because Apple released a tool called Final Cut Pro X that is missing so many features from the previous version of FCP that it is pretty much unusable. I'm not exaggerating at all. No XML/OMF support, no way to import old FCP projects, no SAN support, no way to get a broadcast quality video signal out, no multicam, no way to assign audio tracks, no tape I/O, no way to prevent it from loading all your media into the Event window, etc.,. This isn't a case of "Oh, this is different and I don't like it." This is a case of, "There's no way I can work with this even if I wanted to."

    Not only did Apple release a very gimped version of FCP but they also recalled all boxed copies of Final Cut Studio and are removing software updates of FCS from Apple.com. They are dropping support for the version that works like a hot box of rocks and offering an unworkable solution as the only alternative. Professionals have been patiently waiting years for the next FCP and now that it's here they see it doesn't meet their needs so they are moving on to Avid or Adobe.

    It's not a throwing about temper tantrum or being mad at Apple. It's about running a business. Professionals can't wait indefinitely for Apple to update FCP X to the point of usability (assuming Apple ever will). Potential doesn't pay the rent.

    Nice. Another ignorant thread stacked w/personal insults that gets preemptively defensive. I'm all for people asking why this firestorm is going on or what about FCPX is getting people so worked up but the seemingly endless parade of people that know little to nothing about post production getting up on their soapboxes and condescendingly pontificating to all the 'stupid professionals' that 'just don't get it' is getting a bit old.


    Lethal
     
  5. soLoredd macrumors 6502a

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    #5
    Just playing devil's advocate but where does it say Apple has to remain dedicated to the pro market, anyway? Yes, there was a time when Apple catered to the professional and the professional market kept the company afloat. But, in the past 5-6 years, Apple has become a power - not by their dedication to the pro market but their dedication and focus on the consumer/prosumer market.

    I'll admit it, digital video for me is a hobby, it doesn't pay my bills and I haven't put thousands of hours researching and learning and teaching. So, I do value the opinions of those who say FCPX doesn't work for them. I also think it was a bad move on Apple's part to release the software as it is when certain functionalities like multi-cam, importing prior XML, and support for major camera models is lacking.

    We'll see what happens in the next 6 to 12 months. Every initial x.0 release for Apple has been very touchy - hell, they can't even release new computers without a day-of-release software update!
     
  6. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #6
    It doesn't. But it would be nice if they'd make their intentions known or, at least, not carry on w/the Final Cut Pro brand if the have no intention of making a professional app.


    Lethal
     
  7. localoid macrumors 68020

    localoid

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    #7
    It's been interesting to follow the debate re: FCPX here @ MacRumors. The battle seems to have evolved largely into a "us vs. them" conflict, or more specifically a battle between "the pros and the rest of us".

    The "rest of us" side seem to view FCPX as some sort of magical panacea that will give anyone with $299 and a Mac the ability to whip-out a feature-length film of Hitchcock quality in an afternoon. Many seem to think the reason "the pros" hate FCPX is because of its great "equalizing" abilities.

    This sort of thing isn't really new. I've seen it happen several times between the 1980s and now, whenever the masses suddenly become aware of a program they never knew existed. People in the 80s thought word processors with a grammar and spell check meant that the computer would automagically write a book for them. Musicians who knew 3 or 4 chords thought that they'd be able to create the full-score for a symphony without the need for learning music theory or scoring. And so on...
     
  8. 2jaded2care macrumors 6502

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    Jun 13, 2003
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    Atlanta
    #8
    This is exactly the problem, as others have pointed out. It should have been called FCE X, not FCP X. It seems the OP is acknowledging this indirectly, intimating that Apple is not interested in "pros" anymore, since now, theoretically, everyone can be considered a "pro". (BTW, I have a digital camera, which now makes me Ansel Adams.;))

    Reminds me of that line from "The Incredibles" -- "When everyone is special, no one is".

    Between the Conan spoof, and Biscardi's (and others') postings, I hope that the reaction at Apple resembles that to the MobileMe rollout. Usually Apple over-achieves and impresses its customer base. This time, not so much.
     
  9. xStep macrumors 68000

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    Less lost in L.A.
    #9
    Although I've seen a little of that, I don't think that is the real issue here.

    The real issue is out the apparently 2+million FCP users, a very large number of them are mid to high end pros who require capabilities that FCPX does not currently have but that these pros were expecting a 'pro' tool with the FCP moniker to have on day one. To make matters worse, Apple has been silent. They didn't pre-announce the limitations or even properly document them on release day and have not released a product road map describing when the missing features will appear, if at all.

    I've appreciated reading and listing to some very constructive criticism about why FCPX simply is not a capable tool in the higher end professional world. As an interested party I've learned things I never gave much consideration to before and clearly can understand the disappointment.

    The group of people who have bothered me the most lately are those who just whine for the sake of whining. I've been tempt to go on a rant about them.

    As for Apple bringing down the barrier of entry, I think it ridiculous to worry about a local 16 year kid stealing your job. A bigger real concern should be talented off-shore (from your shore) people with a much lower cost of living, and as a result, local talented people who begin to lower their charge so that they can keep making an income to feed the family. Global competition is rough.

    Giving someone a tool does not also give them the talent to create a professional result.
     
  10. martinX macrumors 6502a

    martinX

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    #10
    I have a hammer, a saw, several power tools and other assorted hardware sitting in the garage. That's pretty much what they do. You think I'd have built a house with them by now.

    I got a Mac and a copy of PageMaker to become a part of the DTP revolution. And I discovered I didn't really have much to say.

    I got a Mac, a DV camera and iMovie to become a part of the digital video revolution, and I discovered I can't write. Or act.

    Now I have a Mac, a professional DV camera, FCP and a purpose for making video (i.e. a job), so I make video.

    Since iMovie first came out, lack of affordable tools has not been an issue. Motivation, means and delivery have been, but not the tools. If you can't make something with all that you have right now at your disposal, you're not a movie maker, you're a software collector.
     
  11. martinX macrumors 6502a

    martinX

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    #11
    I'd hate to spend my days making "entertainment" and I love that I get to make things that save people's lives. I think the new FCP X is sucky, but it's a good start. It's a pity that FCP X had to strip so many features to make it the equivalent of FCP 1.0. You'd think that Apple would have learned what people liked/used/needed over the last decade...

    A new engine is one thing, but it still needs wheels.
     
  12. xStep, Jun 26, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2011

    xStep macrumors 68000

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    #12
    Apple didn't strip anything since they built FCPX from the ground up. They simply didn't deliver those features. They didn't have to do this, but chose to under deliver.

    On another thread someone (edit: singlestick) said Apple has lost much of the goodwill they had. I'd agree with that. Like many, I'm sure, I'm puzzled how they could have made this blunder. Much of this noise could have been avoided with a more mature, and delayed product. At the very least, they could have prepared the community before delivery. But hey, that isn't the Apple way.
     
  13. smali thread starter macrumors regular

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    Jul 19, 2010
    #13
    What talent? You mean talent to edit? No, there is no talent required, just go to a course and you're done. Its just a skill.

    To produce something worthwhile with that skill is talent.

    My argument is now the need for skill in editing is becoming irrelvant, the people who will still have jobs are the ones with talent.

    Someone said they got a camera but the can't shoot like a legend. Of course you are just saying that because you have dont have the talent/creative vision etc. Most of the skill required to produce a photograph has become irrelvant with dlsr and photoshop.

    You still need talent to produce a good photograph.

    To clarify Editing = learned skill that you are trained, FCPX is trying to make it so that you don't need as much skill and therefore training to achieve the same results.
     
  14. 2jaded2care macrumors 6502

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    Atlanta
    #14
    We may be arguing semantics to some degree.

    To most editors, "editing" is more than just knowing software, it's knowing when to cut, how to cut, what to cut to, how to best tell a story. Editing isn't just knowing which buttons to push to do a particular task, it's knowing which task should be done and why, in one's own opinion.

    I think most editors are not so insecure that they want the equipment and software to be complicated just to ensure job security. It's just that things sometimes have to be complicated to accommodate lots of options and meet technical specs, at least until someone figures out a better way. Even then, as you say, talent will win out.

    FCP X may simplify some things for amateur users, but it lacks many professional features available in the previous version of FCP. And, as entertaining as YouTube might be, it hasn't supplanted feature films or network TV yet.
     
  15. MovieCutter, Jun 27, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2011

    MovieCutter macrumors 68040

    MovieCutter

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    #15
    My favorite thing about the organizations who choose to go the DIY route is the fact that you can pick them out from a mile away. They use all the pre-done templates, effects, Motion effects, etc without integrating them into a new vision of how to put a video together. Just watch local television for an hour or so, and you'll see what I mean.


    Quoted for truth. I TRIED to cut a show that I normally can do in 2 hours using multi-cam and a number of other features that are missing from FCP X yesterday. I can't do it. It's impossible. It would take me at LEAST 5x longer to put together a show in FCP X than it would in FCP7, that's not progress. I've already told my team at Al Jazeera that FCP X is a joke and have already started transitioning to Adobe and Avid. I have 200 25 minute shows backlogged that I need to tweak and prep for re-broadcast in their FCP 5, 6, and 7 versions, then move to tape for syndication and redistribution and FCP X won't allow me to do ANY that. If you were a pro, OP, you'd understand what we're going through. It's a damn shame that we have to deal with a program we've grown with, and loved (sometimes painfully) for 10 years, only to see it completely lobotomized. All I wanted was 64 bit support, a bit more stability, and the ability to see all the available resources in my workstation. Apparently Apple took that as an excuse to make Final Cut Pro for the "masses" i.e. the people who think that because they can hit the right button in the software, that they understand the craft of editing. I've spent 10 years figuring out how to edit and I'm still learning, just because you know the software doesn't mean squat.
     
  16. smokescreen76 macrumors member

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    Sep 10, 2010
    #16
    The main thing that FCP X hasn't accounted for is the fact that in the professional TV and Film industry the post production process is not undertaken by one person.

    A team of assistants capture and prepare rushes.

    A visual effects guy creates titles and graphics.

    An offline editor puts together the creative edit.

    An audio assistant prepares the audio elements.

    A mixer puts the finishing touches to the audio.

    A colourist grades the film.

    An online editor puts all the elements together and lays it to tape for broadcast.


    All of these skills are distinct and can not be mastered by one person. Projects and media files are sent from one system to another all the time. The one-stop-shop might be fine for a low budget music video or a corporate video or even lower end TV or film but for any professional project you need the ability to share the load. FCP X does not offer this.
     
  17. xStep macrumors 68000

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    #17
    You sound very experienced, but could your limited experience with FCPX be causing that delay. Muscle memory is one issue but also from what I've seen written up, it sounds like some things have changed to a point where many users think some features don't exist in FCPX when in fact they do. New ways of doing things add to the learning curve. So, what I'm suggesting is that you lack of experience with FCPX will definitely cause delays until you come up the same speed of your experience with the previous versions for FCP.

    P.S. I like your location tag. Sounds like you move around a lot.
     
  18. 2jaded2care macrumors 6502

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    #18
  19. Soura2112 macrumors 6502

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    #19
    Passion and talent

    I consider myself a pretty good editor in a specific field, which is creating music videos. I create the music myself while most of the time the video, while sometimes it's older VHS video from the 90s or before. I took a class not having a clue what final cut was, I fell in love with editing, while my other classmates just did the work for the grades, it was just a media class, a very cool 2 semester one. My teacher was awesome and said I should keep doing this work outside of school, got a Mac Pro in 2005 and my life changed.
    We also learned photoshop in the class which I was not as good at, but learned the basics. I'm okay at Photoshop but my video editing is much better due to passion. No matter what you need the passion and talent. Someone using iMovie with talent and passion and make it better then okay editors on FCP, AVID, or Premiere. Just for arguments sake if I have a pencil and paper I can't draw at all, while another could draw an amazing piece of architecture with the same tools as I. This is why I strongly believe its all about talent not the program. Don't get me wrong the programs make life a hell of a lot better for us and faster. I'm not arguing that FCX doesn't have flaws, so far I ran into many. Some are my fault and some are Apples, depends what I'm trying to do.
    I do not edit in a editing bay situation, though one day I would like to, I'm going back to school to pick up on some organizational skills, since I kinda took FCP learned the basics and just went crazy with it. I'm also going back to school to learn After Effects, sadly my college didn't have many classes in the editing or digital graphics industry. I have been wanting to learn After Effects for awhile and now have the time.
    I think it's great that average people can put together a video these days without spending lots of money on a simple project. Of course these people are not creating pro video, nor learning everything the program has. The pros loose out a little but not much. Then you have those working in TV or movies and that will always have a place for pros in every field.
    I agree with many things that were said, I see the positive and negative... I still think passion and talent will show the diffetencenin work no matter the program. That doesnt mean I want bad programs though, just looking at the argument in a different light.
    Good luck to everyone and their editing.
     
  20. MovieCutter, Jun 27, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2011

    MovieCutter macrumors 68040

    MovieCutter

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    #20
    No, these features simply DO NOT exist in FCP. I have a talent for learning new software very quickly. I was a sophomore in high school when FCP was released and was instructing teachers on how to use it within 2 months and later taught a course in Final Cut in college as a sophomore. FCPX is unusable in my workflow, plain and simple. The tools and features...simply...don't...exist. I've spent days with FCPX and it doesn't measure up to the customization, control, and features of FCP 7. The fact that it would take me 5x longer is using old school workarounds that I had to deal with in FCP 1-4, that 5-7 fixed and almost perfected. The fact that you believe that there is a "learning curve" demonstrates that you haven't pushed FCP to a professional workflow.

    P.S. The fact that I can't put content late into the timeline without it snapping back to the last edit demonstrates how out of touch Apple is with it's professional editor's workflow. I place bits, pieces, and edited sequences late in the timeline to drop into various places within my story as I need, and this new "audition" feature doesn't come close to giving me the same ability...I see my timeline as a large canvas, cleaning it up as I go and I know editors all over the world and the industry who have the same practice. Apple decided they were smarter than those who actually make a living doing things the way we do and deny us the ability to work the way we do.
     
  21. toxotis70 macrumors member

    toxotis70

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    #21
    In my Tv channel, the biggest in my country, i do ALL those jobs by myself.... Am i a PRO user or not ?
    For me, is much faster and easier now than ever.
    Motion intergration is fine, and of course more features will come...
     
  22. MovieCutter macrumors 68040

    MovieCutter

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    #22
    So you're saying you can rush captures, master titles and graphics, cut the script together, master and mix audio, grade the final edit, AND edit to tape for broadcast in FCPX? I call BS.

    The keyword was "mastered". I do the same thing for some shows I produce, but that's due to budget reasons. By no means have I "mastered" these tasks.
     
  23. haiggy, Jun 27, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2011
  24. CaptainChunk macrumors 68020

    CaptainChunk

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    #24
    Point taken, but we're really arguing semantics here. IMHO, being editor encompasses both the skill AND the talent to create quality work that is entertaining to an audience. You may have the skill to lay clips down on tracks in NLE software, but that doesn't make you an editor. It makes you a button pusher.

    I think you're missing the point that actual pros are trying to make. That is that we aren't necessarily resistant to learning newer ways of doing things. Post production pros have to adapt to change probably more than any else involved in producing content. What we are resistant to is the absence of vital features we require to get our jobs done and the overall functionality of the new interface that forces us to work less efficiently. And when you combine those facts with Apple's silence over what's really going to be addressed in future updates and what's not, it makes us less inclined to stay on board with FCP.
     
  25. xStep macrumors 68000

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    #25
    Of course you have a learning curve. You are using a new piece of software. There are changes, additions, and deletions of functionality from what you have used in the past. You are learning about those and forming a new mental picture of how it all works together, and eventually the muscle memory to optimally work with it. It's a natural process.

    BTW, thanks for more details of your work flow. I find it interesting, and eerily similar to limited FCP hacking I've done in the past.
     

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