Rant time - want mid range desktop

[snouter]

Irrelevent really as the Xeon W5220 in the quad Mac Pro is the same but with ECC support.

Relevant as the i7 is cheaper and offers the same performance in a single CPU configuration.

Marked up $1,250 and in a Mac Pro case? The market just doesn't interest Apple I'm affraid. I doubt it'll change now either.

Fine, make it $1500. You know the video card is only going to be $25 of the cost. :rolleyes

There is a huge gulf between Apple's laptop based consumer machines (mini, iMac, and the laptops) and the Xeon based Mac Pro. There is nothing in that middle area.

 

[Hrududu]

That's like holding on to hope that the Maple Leafs will win the 2009 Stanley Cup. It's clearly not going to happen, since they're not in the finals.

PowerPC is dead, and good riddance.

No they probably won't have a PPC version, but nobody can be 100% sure of that right now, so I'm allowed to hope anyways. On the other hand, Pittsburgh will win the 2009 Stanley Cup.

 

[zmttoxics]

I didn't read most of this thread. Mid range desktop? Get an iMac. Want to play games? Get an iMac with a 4850 in it - its a good card. Its in my gaming rig and does very well.

 

[snouter]

I didn't read most of this thread. Mid range desktop? Get an iMac. Want to play games? Get an iMac with a 4850 in it - its a good card. Its in my gaming rig and does very well.

Well, if you had read the thread, you would note that the iMac is mostly a laptop with a desktop hard drive. Slower ram, bus, lower ram capacity, less powerful processors, weaker and less video video card options, only the one hard drive, etc.

There is nothing between the iMac and Mini based on laptop components and the Mac Pro based on server components - ie $$$

I'd never buy an all in one thing anyhow...

 

[zmttoxics]

Well, if you had read the thread, you would note that the iMac is mostly a laptop with a desktop hard drive. Slower ram, bus, lower ram capacity, less powerful processors, weaker and less video video card options, only the one hard drive, etc.

There is nothing between the iMac and Mini based on laptop components and the Mac Pro based on server components - ie $$$

I'd never buy an all in one thing anyhow...

Look at the specs of one lately? Up 3.06 ghz C2D, 8GB DDR3 @ 1066mhz, 1TB disk, ati 4850. Thats no laptop.
Edit: Atleast on in the sense you make it out to be.

 

[snouter]

Look at the specs of one lately? Up 3.06 ghz C2D, 8GB DDR3 @ 1066mhz, 1TB disk, ati 4850. Thats no laptop.
Edit: Atleast on in the sense you make it out to be.

• Overclocked 3.06 mobile CPU
• only 2 ram slots, so to get 8GB you are looking at 2*4GB ram = $$$
• 4850 is fine, but what if I want a 4870? or a 285GTX?
• What if I want to add a second 1TB drive?
• What if I want to use two HP LP2475W monitors?
• What if I hate glossy screens?

There is nothing wrong with the iMac, for all intensive purposes, it is Apple's consumer desktop machine...

Some people would like to see more options in the $1500 space.

mini < $800
iMac < $1800
MacBook < $1500
MacBook Pro < $2500
[BIG EMPTY SPACE]
Mac Pro > $2500

 

[rdowns]

for all intensive purposes,

For all intents and purposes.

 

[Umbongo]

Relevant as the i7 is cheaper and offers the same performance in a single CPU configuration.

The Xeon W3520 is a single socket CPU. They are exactly the same except the Xeon supports ECC memory. They both cost $284 for 1000 units from Intel.

Fine, make it $1500. You know the video card is only going to be $25 of the cost.

There is a huge gulf between Apple's laptop based consumer machines (mini, iMac, and the laptops) and the Xeon based Mac Pro. There is nothing in that middle area.

There is a huge gulf and its plain for anyone to see, but its been that way for nearly 3 years. The current single processor Mac Pro pricing (i.e $1,000 extra over Dell) show Apple just aren't bothered about catering to the segment of the market such systems target.

 

[snouter]

For all intents and purposes.

lolz, I had a bad vibe about that one...

 

[snouter]

The Xeon W3520 is a single socket CPU. They are exactly the same except the Xeon supports ECC memory. They both cost $284 for 1000 units from Intel.

And Apple prices this sibgle socket computer at $2500 !!!

There is a huge gulf and its plain for anyone to see, but its been that way for nearly 3 years. The current single processor Mac Pro pricing (i.e $1,000 extra over Dell) show Apple just aren't bothered about catering to the segment of the market such systems target.

Clearly.

I like OS X a lot; the problem is letting Apple make all of my hardware decisions for me.

I have a MBP now, and want a desktop. iMac is no better than what I have, and I'm not into the idea enough to drop $4000 on a Mac Pro.

I still have my MBP.

 

[Fizzoid]

Well, if you had read the thread, you would note that the iMac is mostly a laptop with a desktop hard drive. Slower ram, bus, lower ram capacity, less powerful processors, weaker and less video video card options, only the one hard drive, etc.

There is nothing between the iMac and Mini based on laptop components and the Mac Pro based on server components - ie $$$

I'd never buy an all in one thing anyhow...

He'd also know that the OP doesn't want an iMac due to him wanting to use his ACDs

A last gen G5 or first gen Pro might be a good idea.

-1 on this in regards to the G5. If you're using the machine for your business you ideally want a warranty for when\if things go wrong. You might be able to pick up an older Pro still with Applecare though

 

[Tesselator]

I agree about the G5.. No thanks!

IMO if you want and mid-range DT (reasonable price ~$1K, punch enough for games and such, non-server parts, etc.) and you want OS X then you're limited to a Hackintosh - period.

If you follow one of the thousands of step tutorials and get the documented parts it's 100%. The single processor models profile and act like scaled down servers which is what they are and that's really not good enough for a desk-top consumer box. Neither is the mini. iMacs have the right spec but they're closed "kit" systems which sucks for DT when you want to upgrade and such. The 08 MP's are scaled like a server and their prices are still in the $2K range or higher. We can get a dual or quad system at about 4 to 4.5 GHz with 4 to 8 GB RAM and a nice HDD or two for $1K in a Hackintosh flavor right now. The 08 Pro is the best deal if you want a server but it's not a consumer DT and doesn't act like one.

 

[VirtualRain]

I think the entry level quad mac pro is Apple's attempt at a mid-range desktop. A stripped-down 2.66 Quad with 3GB of RAM and a 640GB disk and a GT120 is about as mid-range as you can go without getting embarassing on specs.

Unfortunately, it's a failure in most people's eyes because they priced it too high (along with the rest of the range). It's a mid-range system priced at high-end levels.

But honestly, I have no sympathy for anyone complaining about price. Apple provides a premium experience at a premium price. It's nothing new. I personally like it and am happy to pay a premium for it. I've owned enough cheap junk in my days to really appreciate it.

 

[Tesselator]

I think the entry level quad mac pro is Apple's attempt at a mid-range desktop. A stripped-down 2.66 Quad with 3GB of RAM and a 640GB disk and a GT120 is about as mid-range as you can go without getting embarassing on specs.

2.66 ?? No, that would be a LOW END consumer grade DT. 2.66 is pitifully terrible! Scaled as a server (ie, 24/7 operation for like 4 or 5 years straight, with heavy loads, low heat, low maintenance, etc.), 2.66x4 or x8 is great and that's what Apple went for - successfully too I might add.

But honestly, I have no sympathy for anyone complaining about price.

Huh? Why? Are you mega-rich or something? Apple also offers Mac MINI and iMac which are not so over-priced, and spec'd like consumer grade boxes (as in: NOT premium at all). It's just that Apple doesn't offer any "user serviceable mid-range DT" at all. Nothing. I think that's what the OP is talking about. No?

 

[snouter]

a GT120 is about as mid-range as you can go without getting embarassing on specs.

GT120 is embarrassing on specs, what is that thing? a re-branded 9500/8600... something like the 4850 should be the base card...

But honestly, I have no sympathy for anyone complaining about price. Apple provides a premium experience at a premium price. It's nothing new. I personally like it and am happy to pay a premium for it. I've owned enough cheap junk in my days to really appreciate it.

I don't think this rant is about that though.

There's just a hole in the lineup between the iMac and the Mac Pro, like, a single core i7 desktop at 2.66 or 2.93. Call it the Mac Amateur for all I care, just make it and price it at $1500 and watch people sprint into the Apple store with their Visa cards. The iMac is not all that. I have never had any interest in one.

Part of going with Apple is letting them make ALL of your hardware choices and any aftermarket mods tend to be way overpriced.

 

[jrichie]

You know what guys... I think I am going to have to get the low end pro.....

I really need the desktop right now, and am no way getting an imac again [for all the good reasons mentioned by Snouter etc]. Ideally, as discussed, is a mid range i7 system that allows me easy upgrades as and when I can afford it, and allows me to plug in the dual ACD's.

Not a system that is NZ$5500 to start off with.......

Anyway, I am going to have to make the move this weekend on this - I have promised renders and all sorts to a client and I think my Ali MB will blow up soon with the amount of pressure I am putting on it.

Issues like this, make me actually hate Apple. For 90% of the time I love my macs, but then there is always something that pisses you off!! I am struggling to get my business going and don't really need this dent in the accounts!

Although maybe I should hold off to WWDC or a bit later and see if anything magical happens, but I strongly doubt it.

Perhaps Apple are real marketing genius's though - get you hooked on a mac, then tempt you with high end models with no other options!!!

 

[snouter]

what renders?

a lot of people build ugly stripped PCs just to render...

After Effects and C4d both have cross platform rendering I do believe.

 

[VirtualRain]

2.66 ?? No, that would be a LOW END consumer grade DT. 2.66 is pitifully terrible!

So you guys aren't complaining that they don't have a mid-range product... you're just complaining that the price of their mid-range product is too expensive?

Fair enough, I don't disagree that an entry level Mac pro at $1500-$2000 wouldn't be attractive but as I said, Apple charges a premium for a premium experience. The fact they don't sell junky $1500 desktop's is a good thing IMHO... there's plenty of other's out there that will sell you one.

If you wait until next year when Intel's flagship processors gain economies of scale from a die-shrink to 32nm, you may get your wish... this is a bad year for a number of reasons to be looking for a bargain on a bleeding edge processor based desktop. (After all, you can buy a complete 8-core Harpertown system for about the cost of a single Nehalem Xeon CPU!)

ps. I'm not super rich, I just see the value in a Mac Pro and the premium price is worth the premium experience for me. I've built and owned countless PC's (usually all very high-end) and all have cost me around $2-3K (to buy/build) at the time... this is really no different in that respect but it's a substantially better product in every regard.

 

[chaosbunny]

Fair enough, I don't disagree that an entry level Mac pro at $1500-$2000 wouldn't be attractive but as I said, Apple charges a premium for a premium experience. The fact they don't sell junky $1500 desktop's is a good thing IMHO... there's plenty of other's out there that will sell you one.

A "junky" $1500 desktop? I'd call a $500 desktop junky, but definitely not a $1500 one.

And until the intel switch Apple had a 1500 - 2000 $ desktop in their lineup for years. So these machines were junky? I think many owners of single processor PowerMac G5s will disagree.

 

[Tesselator]

So you guys aren't complaining that they don't have a mid-range product... you're just complaining that the price of their mid-range product is too expensive?

No, we're complaining that they actually do NOT have one. At least I am. They do have the iMacs but those aren't really DeskTops to me. iMacs are "compo's" or "Consoles" or "Kiosks" or something. You already know the issues: Not user serviceable, no space for upgrades, not available without monitor or with the monitor of choice, etc.

No Mac Pro will profile like a "mid-range" consumer grade desktop. Part of this "profile" is price yes but that's not all of it. At least this is my thinking anyway. Xeons are server parts and xeon based systems almost always profile like servers. To me a "mid-range" consumer grade desk-top is:

1. $1,000
2. 3.2 - 4.0 GHz 2 or 4 core CPU (after over clocking),
3. 2 to 4 GB RAM Expandable to 8 or 16 GB (cheapest type - Not FB-DIMMs ),
4. 2 to 4 HDD drive bays,
5. One or two 5.25" drive bays,
6. 4890 GPU or similar,
7. Fully supports Crossover or SLI,
8. 5-1 Sound card,
9. One gigabit LAN port,
10. 4 to 6 USB ports,
11. FireWire Optional,
12. PSU that just meets these requirements.

 

[Umbongo]

No, we're complaining that they actually do NOT have one. At least I am. They do have the iMacs but those aren't really DeskTops to me. iMacs are "compo's" or "Consoles" or "Kiosks" or something. You already know the issues: Not user serviceable, no space for upgrades, not available without monitor or with the monitor of choice, etc.

No Mac Pro will profile like a "mid-range" consumer grade desktop. Part of this "profile" is price yes but that's not all of it. At least this is my thinking anyway. Xeons are server parts and xeon based systems almost always profile like servers. To me a "mid-range" consumer grade desk-top is:

1. $1,000
2. 3.2 - 4.0 GHz 2 or 4 core CPU (after over clocking),
3. 2 to 4 GB RAM Expandable to 8 or 16 GB (cheapest type - Not FB-DIMMs ),
4. 2 to 4 HDD drive bays,
5. One or two 5.25" drive bays,
6. 4890 GPU or similar,
7. Fully supports Crossover or SLI,
8. 5-1 Sound card,
9. One gigabit LAN port,
10. 4 to 6 USB ports,
11. FireWire Optional,
12. PSU that just meets these requirements.

So you want a $1000 processor and $250 graphics card in a $1,000 desktop? Or do you mean a processor capable of overclocking to 3.2GHz (i.e. 2.66GHz i7) or are you saying high end options are part of a midrange offering?

 

[Dr.Pants]

No, we're complaining that they actually do NOT have one. At least I am. They do have the iMacs but those aren't really DeskTops to me. iMacs are "compo's" or "Consoles" or "Kiosks" or something. You already know the issues: Not user serviceable, no space for upgrades, not available without monitor or with the monitor of choice, etc.

I agree with you here. imacs only get classified as desktops b/c, well, they sit on the desk. Maybe "Single-unit PC" is a better term, rather then desktop. I would like to point out that all three things The Tess mentioned are happening in the Pro Lineup - HDDs soldiered to the motherboard, limited RAM slots on the quad, and MiniDisplayPort.

 

[Tesselator]

So you want... Or do you mean... or are you saying...?

Read what I wrote. "After over-clocking" also implying that it is indeed over-clockable.

 

[Topper]

1. $1,000
2. 3.2 - 4.0 GHz 2 or 4 core CPU (after over clocking),
3. 2 to 4 GB RAM Expandable to 8 or 16 GB (cheapest type - Not FB-DIMMs ),
4. 2 to 4 HDD drive bays,
5. One or two 5.25" drive bays,
6. 4890 GPU or similar,
7. Fully supports Crossover or SLI,
8. 5-1 Sound card,
9. One gigabit LAN port,
10. 4 to 6 USB ports,
11. FireWire Optional,
12. PSU that just meets these requirements.

That would be a very nice gaming rig.
.

 

[Tesselator]

That would be a very nice gaming rig.
.

Yeah, pretty average I guess. High end consumer grade DT to me would be like:

1. $2,500 ~ $3,000
2. 5.0 - 5.8 GHz 4 core water-cooled CPU (after over clocking),
3. 4 to 8 GB RAM Expandable to 16 or 32 GB (cheapest type - Not FB-DIMMs ),
4. 4 to 6 HDD drive bays,
5. Three or four 5.25" drive bays,
6. 2 4890 GPUs or similar,
7. Fully supports Crossover or SLI,
8. 5-1 / 7-1 optical Sound Card,
9. Two gigabit LAN ports,
10. 6 to 8 USB ports,
11. 2 to 4 FireWire ports,
12. PSU ready for all upgrade options.