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I really wouldn't roll my eyes.

www.baen.com

They put whole books online without DRM. Sales for their authors have gone UP since they've done that.

It may not translate entirely over, but there is SOME empirical evidence, conducted by an intellectual rights owner, that dropping DRM (in certain cases) will cause sales to go up. You've been asserting that the consumer's behavior determines what a copyright holder does...well does increased sales tell you anything?

Why is that not a relevant case for this discussion?


Hi gwangung,

Can you site your source for this? The URL you posted seems to go to a SCI-FI site with links to order books through Amazon and other retailers.

Yeah, Google has hundreds (thousands?) of books online that you can download as a PDF. That is really cool. I downloaded an 1878 Harvard edition of Shakespeare's Richard III a few weeks ago. It is so cool having a digital edition of this, but I don't think Oxford press or Folger's has anything much to worry about. And Shakespeare is long dead, so his work is in the public domain. Oh, but it did have a Google digital watermark on each page.

I am a little sarcastic about this because the popular position seems so absurd. Not you personally, or even your position. But some. I remember when the tobacco companies produced studies showing that cigarettes did not cause cancer. That is laughable now, but for years cigarette smokers fought loudly and aggressively for their right to smoke in public. Even after the Surgeon General's reports showed that second hand smoke kills.

It all makes you a bit of a cynic. :rolleyes:

I think ultimately we must find a position that is right for us, and be open to other ideas while holding that position. My life experience has taught me that people are by and large considerate and thinking folk, but when presented with an easy opportunity to set consideration off to the side for a moment, many, many, many will do just that.

So I roll my eyes and smile. Because what you and I think is not important. What is important is what "the people" do. And I can't get beyond the fact that every day a bunch of us go and buy a collective total of five million DRM encoded tracks from Apple.
 
Annoying

Making the copy protection available for other companies.. What a waste of time. It's like he says, I mean.. I might as well just copy a CD and share it.
 
Just a few comments...

Well, let's start at the bottom of your post and work up.

No, I am pretty worried about the Patriot Act. So I do think we agree on that point.

I was not meaning to suggest that you personally were a criminal, and am sorry it sounded that way. But many, many people did and do illegally copy and distribute music tracks. And they are criminals. Not the same caliber criminal as a murderer or bank robber, granted. More like a purse snatcher, I would think.

Let's say you invited me into your home (not likely after this exchange, but let's imagine it). And as I walked around your living room I noticed your iPod and decided I wanted it. Do I have the right to take it just because I want it? Of course not. It's yours. You own it. You labored to some degree to earn enough to buy it. You paid for the gas to get you to the Apple store or for the ISP that allowed you order online.

If you look at the license you get when you buy or download music, the music is not yours. You do not own it. The label or the artist or, more likely, a publisher, owns the music. It belongs to them in much the same way that iPod is yours. They paid for the engineering, for marketing, for distribution, perhaps an advance to the artist. Those companies labored to some degree to earn enough to buy that music from the artist. And all of those people, including the artist, get hurt when consumers copy the work without paying for it, just as much as you would get hurt if I took your iPod.

Now current implementation of DRM sucks. We all know that. But WHY does DRM suck? Because it makes it inconvenient for consumers to use the music outside the scope of the license they were granted when they bought the music? Okay. Wait a minute. I go to McDonalds and get pissed at them when they won't serve me pizza? Of course not! If I want pizza, I go to the Pizza Palace. So why be pissed at folks encoding DRM when you know, up front, and in advance of the purchase, that there are restrictions to the use of the music?

Well, it sound like many of us (notice I stayed away from saying "you") are pissed because we want to use the music on some MP3 player other than the iPod or we want to be able to copy the music in some way that we weren't issued a license to do. So your solution is reasonable. Don't buy DRM encoded music if you don't want to be restricted in terms of use. Don't go to McDonalds for a pizza.

Another option would be to remove the DRM code and raise the price enough to cover potential duplication and other uses. But the high price would probably keep you from buying the music, too.

So what's right? I honestly don't know, and I honestly don't presume that what is right for me would be right for you. But the record industry, the book industry, the food industry, the computer industry, you and even me ... we all have the right to protect our property (just try getting the spice recipe for the taco filling at Taco Bell).

I suppose I probably sound as arrogant in my position on DRM as you do in yours. I recognize that I may not get it but, as an artist whose music sells on iTunes, I am much happier getting my few cents for each track. And with Apple selling five million tracks a day, I would have to imagine they are not too concerned that some folks might not buy DRM encoded tracks. There seem to be plenty out there who will. Thank goodness.

:rolleyes:

I think you missunderstood my point about the patriot act. If you are worried about it then that makes two of us. At least we agree on something ;)

Ok, so you're an artist who sells music on iTunes so I can understand you having some interest in DRM to help preserve your revenues. Now and then it does cross my mind the thought of how or IF I might look at this differently if I was an artist. I haven't decided. Maybe I would. Maybe I would not.

Yea, It's possible I would invite you into my house even after this exchange. You could play me some tunes on my guitar or baby grand ;) But I think the stealing-my-iPod analogy is a little different in that I would not have my iPod anymore. Information (music files) is different in that it can be copied, leaving me with what I had in the first place. If you had an atomic duplicator when you came to my house I could say, sure, duplicate my iPod if you want. And I would still have my iPod. Except I'm sure atomic duplication of iPods would be illegal.

As for those who do illegally mass distribute media files - ok, catch them and "fine" them. But don't put DRM on my media files. I would like my great great grandchildren to be able to listen to my music library in 50-100 years. Well, say Apple and iTunes are not around anymore for my music files to be "authorized" to play. Get my point?

Yea, I agree about not getting mad at McDonalds for not selling me a pizza. And yes, when I buy music I'm basically just buying a license to use it however the license allows. But I want to be in control of whether I abide by that license or not. So I guess I'll be buying a lot from eMusic from now on instead of from iTunes. And I'll be buying CDs at WalMart so I can rip them to have without having to deal with DRM. Not to do anything illegal. But just to, for example, play them on any player I want.
 
Hi gwangung,

Can you site your source for this? The URL you posted seems to go to a SCI-FI site with links to order books through Amazon and other retailers.

Yes, it has that. But if you'll look in the Baen Library, you'll find a fair number of whole books that they've made available for download. You know, that part that says FREE LIBRARY, hm?

Now, of course they have links for ordering books that you pay for, but the point remains is that a publisher has put up books for free, without DRM, on their website.

One of their main authors, Eric Flint, has consistently pointed out (on Usenet and in the forums on Baen) that the free books had no impact on sales (i.e., his royalty checks). An early article on this was published in 2002 at http://www.counterpunch.org/flint0419.html. And since the Library has expanded its offerings since then, in both titles and authors, I doubt anything of significance has changed.

Also, Charles Stross has put the text for his recent (2005) Hugo nominated book Accellerando on line. I'll be interested in seeing how sales of that have been impacted.

I understand your position; I held it initially. But when there's empirical evidence that contradicts it, then the position HAS to be modified. It may be that it applies only to certain material, or for only a limited time. But when authors report that they see their royalties go up, you really have to stop and rethink your assumptions.
 
I understand your position; I held it initially.
Same here. Until I realised that every DRM can be broken (no exceptions in the history of DRM exist) and that DRM hurts the people you care about most... the people who have bought your music legally (ie. thanks for being a fan, now please lie down while I kick sand in your face, thanks).

For the first time in the history of the world, the illegal copy is actually BETTER than the legal original (ie. they sound the same and have less restrictions... in the past copies have usually sounded identical with identical restrictions [CD copies] or sounded worse [analogue copies] with identical restrictions). Is it any wonder some people are choosing p2p alternatives?

I think there's only one way this can go... DRM *will* die. And it won't take too long.

Edit: I'm sure Apple make enough from iTunes to warrant keeping it alive. To suggest otherwise is a little insane. If you can't build a successful online business around 2 billion sales, then... well... you probably don't deserve to have the business.
 
Ditto! Mega Ditto! Until then, I'm more than happy to go to the store, buy the CD and rip it myself!

Yea up 'till today, this is what I do. I still prefer to purchase my CDs and rip them to my library myself.
I have purchased a few songs from the iTunes Store, a few singles here and there, but it's not my main source for music.
 
Tom's Hardware Guide has posted an op-ed about Steve's comments.

It starts out with the usual tow-the-party-line, ridiculous ad-hominem attack on Mac users we expect from Tom's, but the rest of the article is not bad.
 
Yeah, actually most of it is not bad at all, and perhaps being in a more mainstream place will attract more attention. However, that can be hard to substantiate.

The only thing I'd add to what's been said in the Tom's piece is that I spend money on music to show support for artists. And these days I normally only show support for indie artists. So for me and for others who feel the same way I do, even if the music industry 86'd DRM altogether, I still wouldn't be buying their stuff, both because most of what the produce is stuff I don't want to hear and because DRM has, as the Tom's article brilliantly pointed out, nothing whatsoever to do with compensation making it's way to the artist.
 
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