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aldo said:
Erm.. Apple's BS about not making money off iTMS is just that, BS. Of course they want the money.

I don't think Apple has said they don't make any money on iTMS. However, their actual claim to make relatively little money on it, 1-2 cents per song in profit, is borne out by their most recent SEC filings and executive/analyst statements.

Are you suggesting Apple is BS'ing the SEC? Maybe you should put a concerned consumer call in; we wouldn't want Apple becoming the next Enron, would we?

While I'm not saying that the iPod is going to suddenly dead, it will not sell in these quantities. Margins will fall aswell.

Well, as a general truism, any product will trend towards commoditization or obsolescence. That results in a lowering of market share and of per-unit margins. So, yeah, I bet you're right.

Of course, that's not an "interesting" statement, as it doesn't give a timeframe, nor an analysis of whether Apple's current market share might give its own next-generation devices enough of a leg up that when this generation of device becomes commoditized they as a company retain market share. Note that within the mini-generations the iPod has already gone through, the commoditization and obsolescence factors were outweighed tremendously by overall market growth and customer loyalty, bringing about astounding year-over-year growth instead of decline. Do you see these failing soon? Do you see someone else in the industry usurping Apple's design-leadership role?

So, are you predicting that Apple will lose a substantial portion of portable music device market share within a year? Two years? What's your non-obvious claim?
 
nagromme said:
Apple has done nothing yet. But they could, because then THEY can profit from opening up their own product to others. I can understand that!

It's not at all like MS breaking non-MS software. The iPod is a closed system supporting certain things--Apple doesn't hide this, and the overall iTunes/iPod system actually makes a better product in some ways. And unlike Windows and third-party apps, the iPod was NEVER promoted as able to play third-party DRM downloads.

And of course you can rip to CD to remove ANY DRM anyway. (I recently tried this and can detect no loss... my friend thought she could tell the difference on one song... and she liked the re-ripped song better :D )

When a song is downloaded, you purchased the right to the music. This right is no different or differently excerised as the rights to a song you rip from a CD which you own. Being not able to listen to this song on a digital music player is wrong, the intention is clear, using the disguise of DRM to lock in market share. What's the difference between promoting your music device as being closed to obtain market share verses claiming a open system which doesn't look kindly to third party software ? They are worded differently but end exactly the same because they both are pathways for market share, the ultimate destination for any corporation (as well as getting filthy rich).

Re-ripping songs, or Transcoding, destroys sound quality. However, today's music is bloated with the vocal rage, lack of information. excessive clipping to boost preceived loudness, excessive bass. Today's sound is no art, it's engineering, more time is spent on computers "maximizing music" than spent in studio to record better. Take your average rock music from today for example, who would need equipment better than a set of Public Address speakers if the sound was originally produced by those speakers anyway ? Your quality of reproduction can not exceed the quality of the source. I wouldn't be surprised either if your average listeners can't find the difference between transcoded music and properly ripped music. In which case, i ask, why are these music from the music stores worth their money in cents in the first place ?
 
There are a few problems with Real utilizing Apple's iPod to play their own music using DRM. If Real was simply selling unprotected AAC/MP3 files there really wouldn't be an issue. But here's the deal:

Real has in some fashion figured out a way to enable their DRM on the iPod. Since there is currently no cooperation between Apple and Real a problem can easily occur. Apple doesn't necessarily know how Real is doing this. I'm sure they have a notion but they don't know 100%. Similarly the people at the Hym Project do not know what DRM changes Apple will make to their music. Hence, every time that Apple updates iTunes or the iPod firmware, the Hymn project may have to update their program. Since the Hymn project is not legal to do, nobody can really complain about it (don't argue if the Hymn project is legal or not because that's not the point).

However, now you have Real coming into the picture. Real is selling songs that have DRM in them. If Apple makes even a *necessary* change to the iPod which inadvertantly creates problems for people who have downloaded from Real, then it will appear to be a problem with the iPod and something that Apple did intentionally. Now Apple (not Real) will start getting calls with people claiming their iPod is malfunctioning. This could cause Apple to be required to not alter certain aspects of the iPod in the future because the Real files will not work appropriately.

I think it just creates more of a hassle for Apple than anything else. I seriously doubt a good amount of people are even aware of the Real music store (I don't even know how to get to it) and I don't anticipate it lasting terribly long.
 
Mudbug said:
oh, and in case they decide to pull the petition offline completely - I've copied a bit of it.

Mirror Page 1
Mirror Page 2
Mirror Page 3
Mirror Page 4

there were plenty others - I figured this would give you a good taste of it all.

Phew! Good thing they took that down, or people might get a bunch of viruses in their email inboxes because of signing the petition (ref: note the reasoning displayed on the current petition as to why no names are shown in the list, just a number of "signatures".)
 
krohde said:
I really think some people on this thread have really got no brains if they don't use that thing in there called memory!

Was the iPod immediately available for windows? NO!
Was iTunes immediately available for PC? No!
Is Rhapsody immediately available for Mac? No.

Some people could even argue that some people here do NOT think before they speak!

Krohde

true, but was Apple preaching "FREEDOM OF MUSIC" and "standing up for their rights" and "stifling innovation"??? no. Real is just using this grassroots campaign to leech on iPod's popularity, nothing else.

IF (and this is a big "if") they allowed Mac users to download their $.49 tunes to my iPod, their "life, liberty and the pursuit of music" crap would ring a little more true.

Apple developed the hardware/software for THEIR customer base. when they saw the opportunity to expand their sales to the PC market, they did, but they never got all high & mighty about it saying they were doing it for noble reasons.

so go think for a little while, krohde...
 
Arcady said:
49 cents won't seem like much of a bargain when Apple updates the iPod to break all songs from Real's site...
you do realize they can play a never ending game of tennis - hacking and locking each other's software in a never ending competition.

why is everyone so against choice? i think it's appauling that apple claims to be the champion of open standards, but their most prized possession is anything but open.

we need to stop being blind mac zealots, step back, and actually look at what's going on. apple is fighting tooth and nail to maintain control over Fair Play, and it's quite obvious that Fair Play is VERY EASY to hack (note Hymn, it's predecessor, and Harmony). Apple can keep reworking Fair Play, but people will just continue to break it. rather than waste resources enforcing something that is unenforceable, they need to put their money where their mouth is, and be the champion of open standards.
 
Maxx Power said:
When a song is downloaded, you purchased the right to the music. This right is no different or differently excerised as the rights to a song you rip from a CD which you own.

Not true--you agree to certain terms with a download, courtesy of the RIAA. And even if a download WAS legally identical to ripping a CD... those terms are between you and the store, not you and the maker of your player.

Maxx Power said:
Being not able to listen to this song on a digital music player is wrong, the intention is clear, using the disguise of DRM to lock in market share.

It's the RIAA (and the pirates) behind the need for DRM, not Apple. Apple should control their platform since they've never pretended otherwise--for lots of reasons people have stated here. But even if they don't beat Harmony, they'll STILL be on top by a mile. They have no need for DRM to lock in market share--they have the best product, and for once, they have the mindshare to go with that. Apple's market is secure. DRM is not some trick Apple's exploiting to promote an inferior player or jukebox. (Now, Real and Sony, on the other hand...)
 
Cheaper is not always better.

Real will sell below cost for about three weeks and lose lotsa money but bring a few people over to an inferior product and site. You cannot give away the store and stay in business for too long. I'd rather pay a bit more with Apple and have them invest their profits to imporve their products-as Apple continually does.
 
Wonder Boy said:
cheaper prices? if someone can't afford a dollar a song or 9.99 for a cd then they shouldn't be wasting $ on music.

well, you have a point there. I think 9.99 is pretty much the sweet spot for music, but I still would pay less if it was possible.

that said, seeing apple lower their prices a little bit here and there would make me go WOW, but I don't see that necessary for itms. the idea is that the artists get something too.

and what comes to the prices real has, the article also says the 0.49 is a campaign price. I don't believe they'll keep the price there, because then there would be no profit for real. for apple or sony or whatever this might still work since they sell their own mp3 players, but real doesn't sell hardware, only audio/video.
 
Bash Real

You don't now how many times I've had to support user's machines after they installed Real Player. Or were duped into the G2 Real Player (when the links for the Free player were 6 point type!) for download. Or installed real Player and several Unwanted programs to their machine (ok, win users deserve this).

Real is trying hardball to get into something they feel they deserve. Apple found a niche and Real wants some.

Just install a Real program on your Mac or PC. It will take over playing of MP3s, jpegs, Mpegs, AVI,... only RAM is all you need it for.

Ask Real- why can't we have a choice in video on the web (when most news sites are RAM only!)? That was until we have MS WinMedia Player...now we can watch AVI files without Real.

Get Real?
 
BrianKonarsMac said:
i think it's appauling that apple claims to be the champion of open standards, but their most prized possession is anything but open.

No DRM is open. There's MS-controlled, Apple-controlled, Real-controlled, Sony-Controlled. Thank the RIAA for the need for DRM.

Where open computing standards exist, Apple often promotes and even enhances them.

That doesn't mean Apple can't make a unified system of iTunes/iPod/iTMS, nor that they ought to dillute that by giving away their DRM to all who ask. The day will come when turning the iPod into a chaos of different DRM stores may make sense. I'm guessing that day is not today.

And consider this: Apple CANNOT make their DRM open to other stores unless they are willing, forever, to make their iPod programmers/developers insure that all those OTHER stores will keep working. By keeping the iPod iTunes-only (plus CDs which are the vast majority of music buying) Apple doesn't have to spend R&D and support dollars until the end of time making sure whatever they feel like doing with future iPod features does not break other stores. They only have to deal with their own.

This is much like the headaches Apple avoids by not selling OS X for x86. Good business, and good for product stability.
 
im now officially embarrassed to be a mac user. i know lots of the people making these comments are older than me, but they sound like they are twelve year olds.

real realizes the ipod is #1. if you're not compatible with the ipod, you're nothing in digital music. they are a business, businesses need money. they are providing their customers what they need. i'm failing to see the negative in this? so we all hate real, what else is new, but this is an admirable piece of tech which should be embraced. WE SHOULD BE MAD AT APPLE FOR LOCKING US INTO THE ITMS! IT SUCKS MY BALLS! 128kbps AAC!?!?!? AHAHAHAHAHA! i have to buy my cd's (which are only $9.99 and include cover art, etc) then rip to lossless, a much better option than iTMS is currently.
 
nagromme said:
No DRM is open. There's MS-controlled, Apple-controlled, Real-controlled, Sony-Controlled. Thank the RIAA for the need for DRM.

yes, but apple is in the position to make their DRM the only DRM that matters.

consider if you will apple licenses Fair Play to all the major music stores (what else is there other than iTMS, seriously?). Fair Play would become a standard, Apple would reap in large sums of cash, and they would be in control of the Fair Play standard. Anything they want to change, they are free to do so. All businesses licensing Fair Play would need to update to the new system.

Apple currently maintains backwards compatibility with previous versions of Fair Play, so what is to stop them from doing so in the future? If they changed features in the iTMS/iPod, i'm failing to see how this would break other music stores? As long as their files were encoded with Fair Play, they would work with iPod. Apple decides to update Fair Play, they give their customers the new version of it. What am i missing here?

macridah said:
If Real is losing money, wouldn't cutting their prices in half make them lose even more?
they are hemorrhaging money like crazy. either they have plenty of cash in reserve, or mr. glaser is making a last ditch effort before his company says it's final farewells.
 
Spades said:
That makes sense, but that's hardly the case here. Real's files are technically superior to Apple's. Real sells 192 kbps AAC while Apple is selling 128. A 49 cent sale is icing on the cake. If Real publicizes it right, I don't see how they can't win from this.

Real files don't play in iTunes. Real files will all be deleted from the iPod the next time you sync up with iTunes (such as when you download the week's free song and want that on your iPod). Real files may force you to never update your iPod software again. IMHO, that's quite drastically technically inferior, and far outweighs the 192kbps encoding rate.

The only feasible route here is buying Real's 192kbps file, buring them onto CDs (adding a few cents per song to the overall cost) and ripping back out to unprotected AAC at around 128kbps quality (but with an actual bitrate of 192kbps so you don't compound the decoding glitches).

IMHO, that's a lot of work to get the tunes Real has that I want but don't have yet, at half price. Plus, I would get a really bad taste in my mouth and may have to waste an hour trying to get over that sickening feeling.
 
BrianKonarsMac said:
consider if you will apple licenses Fair Play to all the major music stores (what else is there other than iTMS, seriously?). Fair Play would become a standard, Apple would reap in large sums of cash, and they would be in control of the Fair Play standard. Anything they want to change, they are free to do so. All businesses licensing Fair Play would need to update to the new system.

I agree--I just see lots of reasons why Apple would want to control the timing, licensing, and other details of such an opening of the iPod. I don't blame them for that.
 
Chuckling all day

I haven't been a reader of MacRumors for too terribly long, but this has easily been the most entertaining thread I've seen thus far. I've been watching this most of the day today.....it's tough to imagine a more bizarre sequence of events with any greater comic value. :D I think my favorite part was the anti-Real petition petition, which I signed. I didn't get a chance to sign the original one set up by Real before the wimps took it down.

Sorry this hasn't been the most contributive message, just an observation.

Real blows. Their music shop will fold up sooner than later, but at least they've done something good in the meantime.....provide us with this bit of fun.

-Joe
 
nagromme said:
Not true--you agree to certain terms with a download, courtesy of the RIAA. And even if a download WAS legally identical to ripping a CD... those terms are between you and the store, not you and the maker of your player.

If those copyright terms are between you and the store, then why target my iPod and make it victim ? iPod should accept all formats of anti-copyrights by that logic. These so-called music should not have the ability to depict one player over another for playback. Afterall, some DVD's have DRM built in, but I don't see any brand of DVD players being able to play certain titles while others can't. In the absence of true standards, you can manipulate the DRM and argue anyotherwise that you are using it to protect this and that, when the ends don't justify the means.


nagromme said:
It's the RIAA (and the pirates) behind the need for DRM, not Apple. Apple should control their platform since they've never pretended otherwise--for lots of reasons people have stated here. But even if they don't beat Harmony, they'll STILL be on top by a mile. They have no need for DRM to lock in market share--they have the best product, and for once, they have the mindshare to go with that. Apple's market is secure. DRM is not some trick Apple's exploiting to promote an inferior player or jukebox. (Now, Real and Sony, on the other hand...)

I agree with you. However, Apple should be with the CONSUMERS not the RIAA. Apple should have made iPod playback any title, and made iTMS without copyright constraints. That would be in good image and integrity, something Apple can't sell without. It is in this north american world of ours that we seccumb to whatever choices offered to us, since that's how capitalistic systems work, but we can easily do better, there is no real limits on why we can not have a DRM free music store, or a player that does what it should, play music and nothing more or have 118 miles per gallon for our cars, Volkswagen Lupo 3L TDi had that in the 1980's. The only stumbling blocks are artificial, for example "why fix it when we already make profit ?" or "no other corporations are doing it, we're just along for the ride." in this anti-competitive society, as much as we claim it is competitive, is only competitive enough to offer you things of very minimal differences. They have a certain style of jeans, so we make them a little different, they have iTMS so we make Sony Music store, offering despite the minute differences, what is essentially the same in the end. Just look at those average north american cars, with same kinds of contours, gas mileage, and look at all those mass marketed PC's, HP, Dell, Gateway, you name it, all with practically the same innards and superficial differences. If competitiveness got us to where we are, then why do most of us dress alike ? Blue Jeans, Tee-Shirts ? Human natures is starting to show its ugly head protected by swarms of lawyers, politicians, corporations with massive funds, and economic oppression (the inability to do anything about anything unless you have money). Anyways....
 
SilentPanda said:
There are a few problems with Real utilizing Apple's iPod to play their own music using DRM. If Real was simply selling unprotected AAC/MP3 files there really wouldn't be an issue. But here's the deal:

Real has in some fashion figured out a way to enable their DRM on the iPod. Since there is currently no cooperation between Apple and Real a problem can easily occur. Apple doesn't necessarily know how Real is doing this. I'm sure they have a notion but they don't know 100%. Similarly the people at the Hym Project do not know what DRM changes Apple will make to their music. Hence, every time that Apple updates iTunes or the iPod firmware, the Hymn project may have to update their program. Since the Hymn project is not legal to do, nobody can really complain about it (don't argue if the Hymn project is legal or not because that's not the point).

However, now you have Real coming into the picture. Real is selling songs that have DRM in them. If Apple makes even a *necessary* change to the iPod which inadvertantly creates problems for people who have downloaded from Real, then it will appear to be a problem with the iPod and something that Apple did intentionally. Now Apple (not Real) will start getting calls with people claiming their iPod is malfunctioning. This could cause Apple to be required to not alter certain aspects of the iPod in the future because the Real files will not work appropriately.

I think it just creates more of a hassle for Apple than anything else. I seriously doubt a good amount of people are even aware of the Real music store (I don't even know how to get to it) and I don't anticipate it lasting terribly long.

I could not have said it any better myself.
 
BrianKonarsMac said:
...i know lots of the people making these comments are older than me, but they sound like they are twelve year olds....

WE SHOULD BE MAD AT APPLE FOR LOCKING US INTO THE ITMS! ... have to buy my cd's ... rip to lossless, a much better option than iTMS is currently.

Not to be picky (well, maybe a little) but it seems you are contradicting yourself... and adults should refrain from using potty mouth words such as "SUCKS MY BALLS" and also refrain from yelling in a public area (Caps) ;)
 
Steve Jobs in food fight with Real CEO?

"Apple's Jobs, RealNetworks's Glaser Meet, Debate, Food Fight At Palo Alto's MacArthur Park"
http://www.mac360.com/index.php/mac...ls_glaser_meet_debate_fight_at_macarthur_park

"Online Music Battle Escalates: Real Acts of Desperation Against Apple, Targets iPod Owners"
http://www.mac360.com/index.php/mac360/more/real_acts_of_desperation_against_apple_ipod_owners

"Point - Counterpoint: Apple Should Open The iPod, iTunes Music"
http://www.mac360.com/index.php/mac...point_apple_should_open_the_ipod_itunes_music
 
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