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But think about how much phones would cost if they were made in America at American labor costs instead of the current $2 per hour or whatever Apple pays someone in China to make your phone for $8 in labor and $200 something in parts and then charges $1000 for it adding that $750 profit to their already ridiculous $400,000,000,000+ cash hoard.

And yet somehow Apple has this insane amount of die hard fans that will buy their products no matter the markup... LOL
 
...but people on contracts were not paying any more on a month-to-month basis than their counterparts who had purchased their phones outright.

I don't claim to have the greatest memory, but I'm pretty sure that's just wrong. Again, I can't say any one individual didn't find themselves in that situation for any number of reasons. I'm not calling you a liar or claiming your memory is wrong. But generally speaking, I'm fairly certain that's not true. I seem to recall my bill going up every time we added a new device.
 
Again, my bill never increased +25 every time I added a new device to it. Started with 2 basic flip phones back in 2003/2004 era

Pretty sure the plan was as follows:
700 anytime minutes with rollover $59.99 (First line was included)
2nd line $9.99
Unlimited family messaging $29.99

As the years went on and lines were added the only prices added to the bill were:
3rd line $9.99
Unlimited iPhone data plan $29.99

4th line $9.99
Unlimited iPhone data plan $29.99

5th line $9.99
Unlimited iPhone data plan $29.99

6th line $9.99
Unlimited iPhone data plan $29.99

Total $260 without my ATT discount.


This math is wrong. 6 total lines with unl text/data/shares 700 mins is $320 before discount.

(On AT&T of course)
 
Except on contract, off contract, when contracts were over... my bill never changed. Still paid the same price.

This.

My overall cost for my 8 lines has been the same roughly for the past 10 years. Paying for the device yourself has 0 advantage. Rather than paying $199 upfront, you pay over time and are still locked into the carrier.
 
This.

My overall cost for my 8 lines has been the same roughly for the past 10 years. Paying for the device yourself has 0 advantage. Rather than paying $199 upfront, you pay over time and are still locked into the carrier.

That’s the point. If you didn’t upgrade, you were still paying the higher service price. You weren’t getting “discounts”. Whereas now, you pay less for the service, regardless of how your device is paid.

The 2 yr subsiding model wasn’t “saving” anybody money and wasn’t really any cheaper overall than what people are doing now. Carriers aren’t “scamming” by having non subsidized pricing. All these people saying the subsidy was built in the price are all correct.
 
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You're clearly mis-remembering.

Not even close, go look it up lol
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This math is wrong. 6 total lines with unl text/data/shares 700 mins is $320 before discount.

(On AT&T of course)

Does that say unlimited everything?
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That’s the point. If you didn’t upgrade, you were still paying the higher service price. You weren’t getting “discounts”. Whereas now, you pay less for the service, regardless of how your device is paid.

Trust me, as someone who processes over 1500 accounts a year... the 2 yr subsiding model wasn’t “saving” anybody money and wasn’t really any cheaper overall than what people are doing now. Carriers aren’t “scamming” by having non subsidized pricing. All these people saying the subsidy was built in the price are all correct.

If my bill was less for the same service how can you say it wasn't saving any money? I have the same number of phones, the same features, and my bill is $150 more per month.
 
But think about how much phones would cost if they were made in America at American labor costs instead of the current $2 per hour or whatever Apple pays someone in China to make your phone for $8 in labor and $200 something in parts and then charges $1000 for it adding that $750 profit to their already ridiculous $400,000,000,000+ cash hoard.

And yet somehow Apple has this insane amount of die hard fans that will buy their products no matter the markup... LOL
Apple is well known as the industry leader when it comes to profit margins, but the iPhone X's margins aren't as high as one might think. Analysts believe the parts alone are nearly $600. Even the iPhone 7 cost about $250 in parts. Yes, the labor in China is incredibly cheap and in relatively high supply, so that number is negligible. But this doesn't even take into account the marketing costs, the cut for the carriers and retailers, wages that it earns sales associates, shipping costs, et cetera. The OLED panel probably accounts for a significant part of the iPhone X's cost to Apple as well, as I believe they only have one supplier, which gives that company more control over pricing.
 
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Except on contract, off contract, when contracts were over... my bill never changed. Still paid the same price.

You are completely misinterpreting your experience.

I worked at AT&T when it was still McCaw Cellular, through the AT&T years, then the AT&T Wireless spinoff, including the Analog to Digital transition, One Rate plans, and subsidized phone plans. In addition to being an employee I have also been a customer of McCaw/AT&T since people had hardwired cellular handsets in their cars. You remember those coiled, corded handsets in some cars? That was me. So believe me, I was there and I saw both sides.

iPhones were never $200. The absolute cheapest iPhone was the SE in 2016 at $400. They were massively subsidized. Read any tech article from the time.

By the way, we were profiting on the subsidy. If you multiply the extra cost of the subsidized phone plans by 24 months, the total exceeds the subsidized amount. People actually complained about this, and rightfully so.

Yes it is true that when your 2 year contract ended, your plan rate did not go down. You see this as solid evidence that the phone was never subsidized in the first place, but this is a misinterpretation of what is happening.

The rate didn't go down because (A) we don't just change customer's plans willy nilly, so we are not going to automatically switch you to the unsubsidized phone plan, and (B) we are not complete idiots--it's extra money every month for us. If you don't want to take advantage of the subsidy every two years, that's on you. We were perfectly happy to take the extra profit.

Ultimately, your other point is sort of correct. Yes the real, MSRP cost of the iPhone has been steadily increasing. But not $200 to $1000, that is an unfair comparison of a base model phone to an upper model phone. It's more like $500 to $700 (base iPhone 3G to base iPhone 8).
 
That’s the point. If you didn’t upgrade, you were still paying the higher service price. You weren’t getting “discounts”. Whereas now, you pay less for the service, regardless of how your device is paid.

Trust me, as someone who processes over 1500 accounts a year... the 2 yr subsiding model wasn’t “saving” anybody money and wasn’t really any cheaper overall than what people are doing now. Carriers aren’t “scamming” by having non subsidized pricing. All these people saying the subsidy was built in the price are all correct.

I’m talking in a perspective of someone who gets a new phone every year. That’s what I did when it was only “$199”.
The difference is, I paid less for the phone before. Now, I’m putting more down for the phone and pay the same monthly payment.

Yes if you buy one phone and never upgrade it’s cheaper.
 
I’m talking in a perspective of someone who gets a new phone every year. That’s what I did when it was only “$199”.
The difference is, I paid less for the phone before. Now, I’m putting more down for the phone and pay the same monthly payment.

Yes if you buy one phone and never upgrade it’s cheaper.

This logic would be for people who upgrade on the bi annual upgrade cycle. You know, the average consumer.
 
True. I guess I should have said when we used to pay $199.00. My bill never really changed. I don't know if its because I've always had a grandfathered UDP. It's been years so I don't remember the details now.
If you stuck with an old plan, that's honestly just your fault for not looking at the new plans. Once they went to financing programs, they started taking off $20-$25/mo on their newer plans.
 
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You are completely misinterpreting your experience.

I worked at AT&T when it was still McCaw Cellular, through the AT&T years, then the AT&T Wireless spinoff, including the Analog to Digital transition, One Rate plans, and subsidized phone plans. In addition to being an employee I have also been a customer of McCaw/AT&T since people had hardwired cellular handsets in their cars. You remember those coiled, corded handsets in some cars? That was me. So believe me, I was there and I saw both sides.

iPhones were never $200. The absolute cheapest iPhone was the SE in 2016 at $400. They were massively subsidized. Read any tech article from the time.

By the way, we were profiting on the subsidy. If you multiply the extra cost of the subsidized phone plans by 24 months, the total exceeds the subsidized amount. People actually complained about this, and rightfully so.

Yes it is true that when your 2 year contract ended, your plan rate did not go down. You see this as solid evidence that the phone was never subsidized in the first place, but this is a misinterpretation of what is happening.

The rate didn't go down because (A) we don't just change customer's plans willy nilly, so we are not going to automatically switch you to the unsubsidized phone plan, and (B) we are not complete idiots--it's extra money every month for us. If you don't want to take advantage of the subsidy every two years, that's on you. We were perfectly happy to take the extra profit.

Ultimately, your other point is sort of correct. Yes the real, MSRP cost of the iPhone has been steadily increasing. But not $200 to $1000, that is an unfair comparison of a base model phone to an upper model phone. It's more like $500 to $700 (base iPhone 3G to base iPhone 8).

Pretty sure it broke down as follows:
700 anytime minutes with rollover $59.99 (First line was included) - basic phone
2nd line $9.99 - basic phone
Unlimited family messaging $29.99

As the years went on and lines were added the only prices added to the bill were:
3rd line $9.99
Unlimited iPhone data plan $29.99

4th line $9.99
Unlimited iPhone data plan $29.99

5th line $9.99
Unlimited iPhone data plan $29.99

6th line $9.99
Unlimited iPhone data plan $29.99

Before any ATT discounts 15%
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If you stuck with an old plan, that's honestly just your fault for not looking at the new plans. Once they went to financing programs, they started taking off $20-$25/mo on their newer plans.

But the plan cost more. It was only $30 for unlimited.
 
Pretty sure it broke down as follows:
700 anytime minutes with rollover $59.99 (First line was included) - basic phone
2nd line $9.99 - basic phone
Unlimited family messaging $29.99

As the years went on and lines were added the only prices added to the bill were:
3rd line $9.99
Unlimited iPhone data plan $29.99

4th line $9.99
Unlimited iPhone data plan $29.99

5th line $9.99
Unlimited iPhone data plan $29.99

6th line $9.99
Unlimited iPhone data plan $29.99

Before any ATT discounts 15%
[doublepost=1509145147][/doublepost]

But the plan cost more. It was only $30 for unlimited.

The plans these days do NOT cost more. I wish I was around my laptop so I could type this stuff out properly.
 
But the plan cost more. It was only $30 for unlimited.
No it wasn't, you had to pay for the minutes/texting too. I was paying around $90-$95/mo on Verizon for their 450 minutes, unlimited text, and unlimited data plan. You can get unlimited data now for like $70 on Verizon.
 
Except on contract, off contract, when contracts were over... my bill never changed. Still paid the same price. Which was a good price in my opinion. Now everyone I know with shared data and payment plans on phones has a bill that is 2-3 times higher than what they were paying when things were on 2 year contracts.

So no I don't believe that "it was already factored into your bill" because my bill with 5 lines all with unlimited grandfathered plans used to be about 350 per month. Now with shared unlimited the same number of lines cost me about 500 per month. The only benefit being we can upgrade on a yearly cycle. Not worth the $150 premium price tag.

I believe this is the result of really good marketing as well as ignorance of the consumer. Would you rather walk into a store and be told you have to pay 199.99/299.99 or pay $0.00 and get a new phone?
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Not before shared data plans. At least not ATT

That was the bad part of the old contract. You paid a fee to cover subsidy even though you'd already paid enough to cover the cost of your device. You could keep a device for 5 years and still pay extra each month to cover a long paid off the subsidy.

the new model is a lot more transparent. Once your device is paid off or if you bring your own device, you pay a set access fee.
 
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If you stuck with an old plan, that's honestly just your fault for not looking at the new plans. Once they went to financing programs, they started taking off $20-$25/mo on their newer plans.
That depended on your usage. I never switched to a newer plan while on AT&T because I had a grandfathered unlimited data plan, and consistently used over 20GB a month. During the time they introduced AT&T Next and the new plans switching to a new plan that would allow me to use 20+ GB would have raised my monthly rate substantially.
 
Pretty sure it broke down as follows:

You are still misunderstanding. I've spent way too long on this already, so I'll try to be brief and end it here. Back then everybody wanted minutes and nobody wanted data. So we charged a lot for minutes and almost nothing for data. It covered the subsidy, it was profitable, and non-subsidized phone data was even cheaper.

A $300 subsidy is paid off with as little as $12.50/month over 24 months. That $10 + $30/mo unlimited data plan covered that, plus additional profit. Now you might be saying "that only leaves $17.50 for unlimited data"! And you are right...but remember, we charged almost nothing for data back then and almost nobody used it. Everything is different now because everyone wants data and nobody wants minutes, so now we charge a lot more for data and almost nothing for minutes.

I won't spend any more time explaining this. I was there and I know what happened. Look at all of the old tech articles. Everyone knows it was subsidized, the pricing is all out there.
 
No it wasn't, you had to pay for the minutes/texting too. I was paying around $90-$95/mo on Verizon for their 450 minutes, unlimited text, and unlimited data plan. You can get unlimited data now for like $70 on Verizon.

Not for a single line. And definitely not including the price of a phone.
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The plans these days do NOT cost more. I wish I was around my laptop so I could type this stuff out properly.

Then how did my bill go up for the same features I had on my old plan? I was forced to change because I couldn't upgrade with my old plan anymore.
[doublepost=1509148103][/doublepost]
You are still misunderstanding. I've spent way too long on this already, so I'll try to be brief and end it here. Back then everybody wanted minutes and nobody wanted data. So we charged a lot for minutes and almost nothing for data. It covered the subsidy, it was profitable, and non-subsidized phone data was even cheaper.

A $300 subsidy is paid off with as little as $12.50/month over 24 months. That $10 + $30/mo unlimited data plan covered that, plus additional profit. Now you might be saying "that only leaves $17.50 for unlimited data"! And you are right...but remember, we charged almost nothing for data back then and almost nobody used it. Everything is different now because everyone wants data and nobody wants minutes, so now we charge a lot more for data and almost nothing for minutes.

I won't spend any more time explaining this. I was there and I know what happened. Look at all of the old tech articles. Everyone knows it was subsidized, the pricing is all out there.

And I'm not saying it wasn't... But it was still cheaper to purchase a phone both ways.

Also, I know alot people who used hundreds of gigs of data on their grandfathered unlimited plan back in the day. So to say nobody used it wouldn't be true.
 
Also, I know alot people who used hundreds of gigs of data on their grandfathered unlimited plan back in the day. So to say nobody used it wouldn't be true.

Well of course there are exceptions to the rule, and believe me, we were very aware of them.

But you're being pedantic. When someone says "nobody plays 8-tracks anymore", yes I'm sure there are some outliers within the population, but normal people would understand that the statement was being used in a comparative or generalized sense.
 
Well of course there are exceptions to the rule, and believe me, we were very aware of them.

But you're being pedantic. When someone says "nobody plays 8-tracks anymore", yes I'm sure there are some outliers within the population, but normal people would understand that the statement was being used in a comparative or generalized sense.

People used data. If they didn't, it wouldn't have been sold to us as "unlimited" data for $30 a month.

Either way I'd rather pay 199.99 for a new phone and supposedly be secretly charged "$12.50/month over 24 months" rather than pay $70 upfront for tax, $25 upgrade fee, plus $41.63 for 24 months for the cheapest X now. Still cheaper before.
 
iPhones have never cost $200. The remainder of the cost was worked into your monthly bill.

The trick is that many people still had similar or lower bills under the old system even though this is technically true. Especially on AT&T, where you could pair a very low minutes plan (because you don’t actually use many call minutes) with unlimited data for $30/line.

I don't claim to have the greatest memory, but I'm pretty sure that's just wrong.

It’s true, at least for AT&T. Subsidy charges may have been technically baked into their old (pre-shared-data) plans, but there was no discount for BYOD.
 
I have had iPhones since the 3G and was paying $20-25 more per month for less service back then. Anyone who thinks that wireless service costs the same nowadays as it did back in the 2-year commitment days must be living in an alternate universe. I ran the math on what my 6S+ has cost me over the last 25 months and it comes to $25/month in depreciation. So I’m basically paying the same as I did 9 years ago for much better hardware/software and more/better cellular data.
 
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