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The lengths some people will go to defend Apple at all costs...it's truly astonishing.

What happened to naming all the pros and cons of the device and then letting people choose?

I wouldn’t call the numerous threads on the MBA having slower SSD simply “listing the pros and cons and letting people come to their conclusions”.

It feels that too many people are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. Concern trolling, I would call it.

Same with the threads on the iPhone 7 not getting iOS 16. Just lots of feigned outrage for the sake of outrage.

It’s about time we started pushing back in the opposite direction. Since when did it become a taboo to defend Apple (when it’s the truth) but acceptable to bash Apple (especially when they are lies)?
 
People today seem to be afraid to make a decision and do their own testing. They feel the need for self- validation with every little thing.
It’s a lot easier to read a few reviews and parse a few benchmarks than it is to buy the wrong Mac.
 
Rene has dirty hands and he didn’t admit to it. Hopefully, he changes for the better.
What specifically are you referring to? I've watched a lot of his videos and generally like what he's done (including this latest benchmark argument) but I don't recall him being a big benchmark guy.
 
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Loved this. I was chasing benchmarks for a bit and this video helped me slow down and realize I’d be fine with a base model M2 MacBook Air if I want one.

Honestly, benchmarks are pointless to me for what I do and if you like benchmarks there are so many other channels for that. I care way more about the overall user experience. How does it feel to use the computer? For example in the hand the M2 Air feels quite a bit different to me than the M1, the weight seems to be more evenly distributed than the M1 which seems heavier at the back. That matters more to my experience than SSD speeds. If it doesn’t for you that’s fine, all the more power to you to care about whatever you want. I just appreciate moving away from benchmarks. I hope that happens in his future reviews.

I don’t always agree with Rene but I always appreciate his perspective.
Agree with your points. This is why I really like Mark Ellis and Everyday Dad channels...
 
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The lengths some people will go to defend Apple at all costs...it's truly astonishing.

What happened to naming all the pros and cons of the device and then letting people choose?
I don't think that's Rene's point. I agree with his basically view that there is an obsessive focus on benchmarks which don't often help users with real-world usage and thus it makes the buying decision harder.
 
Benchmark, however flawed it might be, by far is THE most scientific view of a machine’s performance in different metrics and can be compared relatively objectively. Now, whether user takes benchmark seriously or not matters little of other users decisions, but none should dissect the importance of benchmarks recording the progression of our hardware design and evolution.
I haven't and won't watch the video, so I'm not defending Ritchie's point here, just my own point of view.

Benchmarks, when performed carefully and with skill, give you a very precise measure of exactly one thing.

The problem isn't with the benchmark. The problem is with how benchmarks are being generated, marketed, and misapplied.

So, as I mention above, benchmarks should be performed carefully and with skill. Most of the YouTube yokels I see peddling results are neither careful nor skillful and they aren't incentivized to be. What they want to be is fast and splashy. The first to post something that looks like data on a new product gets paid the most whether or not that data is accurate or meaningful. That doesn't lend itself to careful repetitive testing, of dozens of experiments to isolate variables. What we generally get is "look I did something and now I've proved something". That's garbage.

Likewise, there's incentive to market to an audience by feeding an existing narrative-- which is the antithesis of any sort of scientific analysis. YouTube markets through divisive headlines, and they love to play like they're uncovering secrets that big tech is trying to hide. I guarantee MaxTech for example, has generated a ton of views through threads here on MacRumors using them as an argument that "the M2 Air is a dud" or "Apple is robbing us". Will the MaxTech guys say they're playing to their base? Of course not. But "if you tell me where a man's corn pone comes from, I'll tell you what his politics are."

And then a benchmark which, again, precisely measures exactly one thing, starts to get extrapolated. We're told what that narrow benchmark means in the bigger picture-- but there is no bigger picture, there's a narrow benchmark and you need to be really careful drawing broader conclusions about what it means for performance and even more careful drawing conclusions about what the manufacturer's intent was in their design decisions.

The SSD performance is a classic example of benchmarks gone wrong. What does a throughput test actually tell us? It tells us that if you create 5GB of data procedurally and write it direct to disk, probably on a fresh drive, then read that same data back but don't use it, there is a notable difference in performance between the 256GB and the 512GB SSDs. That is the only thing that benchmark means. It doesn't say anything about file copies, it doesn't say anything about media import or export, and it certainly doesn't say anything about what happens when you're swapping 16kB pages from compressed virtual memory.

But it's being used to support the argument that it will affect performance for casual users who don't quit unused applications, which is utter nonsense and not in any way supported by a throughput test.


Before that, it was arguments about CPU temperatures where someone measured something using a tool that it turned out wasn't even tuned to the hardware they were running it on, and engineers with expertise in silicon design were being dismissed with YouTube soundbites.

So, if you're going to make the argument that benchmarks are the only scientific way to analyze a system then you have to also take the view that they're only meaningful to scientists and a lay audience isn't equipped to interpret them. Benchmarks are incredibly useful to the people who understand them, and just as importantly understand their limits, but they're being used (often unwittingly) to give a false sense of scientific credibility to bad conclusions.
 
Exactly right.

It’s just a further extension of excuse making on Apple’s behalf to suggest that benchmarking should be dismissed or that it’s creating “toxicity” around the messaging and marketing for a product.

Rene seems to have no low point on how far he’ll go to carry water for Apple

Nope. His point is benchmarks out of context are worse than meaningless, they can be misleading. A point that his detractors seem to be making for him.
 
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Rene has always had this chuckle in his voice that makes me wonder if he's always taking the pis* on the viewer.

I used to be an avid viewer of MacBreak Weekly back when Merlin Mann was a cast there. There's no way I can listen to a whole episode of the group now. Too weird a ensemble of people.

I try to avoid tech reviews because I could not give 2 more cents about whether the M2 is slower on the SSD compared to the M1 computers. It's just too uninteresting a debate, as if there's no software that's much more interesting to be discussing and perhaps take on.

Of course, the hardware is what makes the software run. And I read someone misinterpreting what Apple as a company is for in this world. The person falsely claimed that Apple is a hardware company. When I read that I cringed a little as that's not what Steve Jobs would once claim. Instead he would claim that, paraphrasing; "Apple is primarily/fundamentally a software company"

The hardware stuff since Steve Jobs uttered those lines, has since been a primary income for Apple. It's just not viable at this point to measure one M1 Mac against another M1 Mac, and then say "wow, Safari is quite a bit faster to open and browse YouTube on this Mac vs the other Mac that is nearly similar in specifications, but I'm doing this comparison anyway because I feel the need to drive home a point about this or that"

The hardware and benchmarks these days aren't really important because without your precious Excel and Word programs, you wouldn't be able to get that job in the local swingers club, writing who is doing what to who and what the menu is. And doing various stuff with Excel.

SysInfo on the Amiga is a good example. Nowdays with emulation it's basically a useless program as the emulation is approx 1 million times faster than a regular Amiga 68020 with an accelerator card and additional RAM.

It's the software.

Imagine if you can, in 10 years time - no Intel CPUs or AMD CPUs around anymore - all ARM, and probably some new architecture on the rise - is this what we humans are meant to do? repeat ourselves, repeat ourselves, repeat ourselves? Or should we concerned about the people who lives on the bottom of the ocean in tiny bubble spaceships that sends sweet thoughts to our elderly people and makes them give sweet hugs to their children and grandchildren?

Think about that why don't you and don't believe a benchmark when you see one. They are only out to get your sweet monies.
 
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Nope. His point is benchmarks out of context are worse than meaningless, they can be misleading. A point that his detractors seem to be making for him.
Hey, when you don't like what the benchmarks are saying, just get rid of the benchmarks!

I'm sure they were ecstatic on the other hand when the M1 came out and showed giant leaps in power efficiency, performance, etc. Benchmark all you want!

Benchmarks are good. They give a common frame of reference. Sure, it can take some skill to interpret them past a certain point. So they aren't perfect, but they are way better than NOTHING.
 
If you disagree with benchmarks, I guess you also don’t give scientific research a ton of weight because they don’t really reflect real use either. However, what benchmark can do is giving users a clear idea of relative performance between different hardware and different configs of same classes of hardware. Yes, most people don’t intentionally stress their machine 7*24 at 100% load, but if 100% load performance has noticeable differences, one can reasonably assume medium to low load would have some differences as well, albeit less pronounced.

Besides, you love real world test. Then I’m gonna ask you: how do you discuss with other people that has drastically different use cases than you about hardware performance? Or you just simply choose not to engage in such conversations? How would people compare machine performance without an agreed standard set of rules? Does someone “only opening 3 safari tabs while watching YouTube feeling snappy” have anything to do with another dude who “keeps 30+ tabs open and dozens of background apps running at the same time”? Same M2, we can get two drastic results: one says M2 is plenty powerful. The other says M2 is underpowered. Who is right? Can someone new to MacBook make a decision based on those two “real world” scenarios?

Besides the inherent flaws of benchmarks, in most you tuber cases they are not even being applied in rigorous scientific fashion. You rarely hear about the controlled conditions, the n value, the standard deviation, and the p values on statistical relevance. You better believe that’s the rigor Apple applies. So you can talk about the benefits of benchmarks, but any tool can be made worthless by using it incorrectly.
 
Did you guys actually watch the video? He makes very good points. I find a lot of tech in the last 5 years or so has been way to heavy with benchmarks with the way he stated. Download Benchmark app, click Go and produce results and say how HORRIBLE the new i9 is compared to AMD just because of one benchmark number.

People like Linus, GamersNexus and JayzTwoCents are at least a little better where they test dozens of things. GamersNexus especially since he goes so far in depth in his testing strategy. But its still a test in isolation. What we need is more of a "productivity review after 1-2 weeks" reporting instead of "Product has been out for 1 minute here are all the benchmarks and my thoughts" content.

I much prefer those type of content than ANY benchmark, even if they are in favor of the product I want.

Benchmarks only tell a story that a system is as good/bad FOR THAT BENCHMARK. Benchmarks of a NVIDIA GPU is all good, but my GPU can be poor or great depending on the game due to program optimization. Relying on benchmarks for a purchase is not a good way to approach this.

This is ultimately leading me to being less and less interested in tech news/reviews and new products in general. Especially with Apple. It gets 100 points less in a Geekbench score and the entire sky is falling. Or testing a base Macbook Air with a workflow that is not intended for it and saying "Yeah it sucks". Its like me doing a review for a 3060 and saying "Yeah it sucks since it can't do 4K gaming well".
 
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When I read that I cringed a little as that's not what Steve Jobs would once claim. Instead he would claim that, paraphrasing; "Apple is primarily/fundamentally a software company
More like “Apple is a company that offers solutions” integrated btw. Well, of course “solution” in this context doesn’t exist yet in 1980.
repeat ourselves, repeat ourselves, repeat ourselves
Isn’t that much of our works on a daily basis for even more majorly of people?
What we need is more of a "productivity review after 1-2 weeks" reporting instead of "Product has been out for 1 minute here are all the benchmarks and my thoughts" content.
These contents exist for a while, but they are highly subjective, since no two workflows will look exactly the same. I watch this sometimes but mostly just some background noise than Anything else. I know my use case will prolly never come in line with reviewer’s use case, so I never take those reviews in Face value.
 
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Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the appeal of all the benchmark reviews. People spend way too much time focusing on "rawr this machine is 5% faster" instead of focusing on the fact a computer is a tool.

Use it to earn money., use it to learn, or my personal favorite: use it for pleasure ;)

Whichever way you use it - it is a tool. Plain and simple. A small percentage point difference will have no effect on that.
 
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These contents exist for a while, but they are highly subjective, since no two workflows will look exactly the same. I watch this sometimes but mostly just some background noise than Anything else. I know my use case will prolly never come in line with reviewer’s use case, so I never take those reviews in Face value.
Its better than watching benchmarks. Haven't we learned by now with the Apple Silicon transition and several popular benchmarks were not optimized well for it leading to much worse reports? At least you can see someone's workflow and can extrapolate it to what you use. You will see how optimized Adobe Premiere Pro is in Apple Silicon with a real workflow instead of how well something performs with a standard benchmark.

Benchmarks on M1 Ultra have been great so far right? Well my Adobe After Effects experience is so poor I cannot use it on it. The Rosetta one performs much better but its a performance hit.

I essentially feel like I overpaid for my M1 Ultra system due to the ZOMG BENCHMARK NUMBERS LOLZ!!!! I am not happy with my After Effects performance, even on my AMD 5700XT it runs After Effects better.
 
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Hey, when you don't like what the benchmarks are saying, just get rid of the benchmarks!

I'm sure they were ecstatic on the other hand when the M1 came out and showed giant leaps in power efficiency, performance, etc. Benchmark all you want!

Benchmarks are good. They give a common frame of reference. Sure, it can take some skill to interpret them past a certain point. So they aren't perfect, but they are way better than NOTHING.
The thing is, you are free to continue watching each & every benchmark video that YouTube currently offers. No one here is suggesting that the pro benchmark crowd need to change their minds about anything. By all means, have a blast. A lot of us just don't think the majority of these tests offer much in the way of "scientific evidence." Like other posters have already pointed out, not all benchmarks are created equal, yet some of you seem to be under the impression that they are.

The sole purpose of most of these tests is to push the laptop to its absolute limit & then promptly feign ignorance once it shows signs of slowdown. Afterwards, sweeping generalizations are made about the machine in all scenarios, strictly based on the results of that one test. It's just silly. Numerous posters have pointed this out in multiple threads now & were mocked/attacked. If anyone questions the test parameters at all, they're Apple shills. We've already been told that our personal experience isn't contributing to the conversation, so what else are we supposed to do? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
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What’s Apple telling Rene to say now?

Is Apple trying to discredit benchmarks?

It’s never been more obvious who he works for. I take back what I said before. iJustine is a way more entertaining Apple employee. She isn’t a whiny drama queen getting mad at peoples comments. He is just as bad as the people he is arguing at. Benchmarks are the only way to compare devices with consistency. Real world usage is subjective and can’t really be measured accurately.

But really….who cares about any of this? Life is too short to obsess over how much faster the Mac is from the other Mac.
 
What’s Apple telling Rene to say now?

Is Apple trying to discredit benchmarks?

It’s never been more obvious who he works for. I take back what I said before. iJustine is a way more entertaining Apple employee. She isn’t a whiny drama queen getting mad at peoples comments. He is just as bad as the people he is arguing at. Benchmarks are the only way to compare devices with consistency. Real world usage is subjective and can’t really be measured accurately.

But really….who cares about any of this? Life is too short to obsess over how much faster the Mac is from the other Mac.
Isn't that his argument? LOL him saying everyone getting up in arms about which bar is higher on benchmarks is the same thing you are saying "who cares how much faster the Mac is from another Mac". But it leads to the 5,000 topics on the doom and gloom due to the 50% slower SSD (which is still faster than SATA SSDs).
 
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Its better than watching benchmarks. Haven't we learned by now with the Apple Silicon transition and several popular benchmarks were not optimized well for it leading to much worse reports? At least you can see someone's workflow and can extrapolate it to what you use. You will see how optimized Adobe Premiere Pro is in Apple Silicon with a real workflow instead of how well something performs with a standard benchmark.

Benchmarks on M1 Ultra have been great so far right? Well my Adobe After Effects experience is so poor I cannot use it on it. The Rosetta one performs much better but its a performance hit.

I essentially feel like I overpaid for my M1 Ultra system due to the ZOMG BENCHMARK NUMBERS LOLZ!!!! I am not happy with my After Effects performance, even on my AMD 5700XT it runs After Effects better.
Well, software transition hasn’t been great after 2 years it seems. Electron dominates more and more on the cross platform software side cause dev cost is way lower compared to native applications. And for native applications, Windows is still the platform of choice to spend money on. However powerful apple silicon might be, much of it is used to bear the burden of less and less optimised software that “support apple silicon” without supporting apple silicon.

Benchmark in and out of itself is fine, but those have been misused to the tilt and got them presented to layman who has no true experience in scientific research like someone rightfully pointed out a while ago. Much like ranking, people easily digest a single grade and make decision, only to realise they either overpay or underpay their dream solutions. It’s a sad trend but one will continue for a long while, because those YouTubers need money for their bills.
 
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"Stop talking about benchmarks! - They are meaningless!"

(heads over to MBA M2 page at Apple.com.)

oh...I see...
Some benchmarks are ok to discuss
As long as its the ones the head office prefers...

Got it Rene
Whatever bud..

Somehow I couldn't find the bar chart showing how much slower the SSD is on the base model M2 MBA vs the M1 MBA base model -- hmm..

Maybe Apple hasn't uploaded that graphic yet?

Screen Shot 2022-07-18 at 20.20.13.png
 
"Stop talking about benchmarks! - They are meaningless!"

(heads over to MBA M2 page at Apple.com.)

oh...I see...
Some benchmarks are ok to discuss
As long as its the ones the head office prefers...

Got it Rene
Whatever bud..

View attachment 2031626
Nope, not even those are okay really. They hide behind fine print but have BIG BOLD LETTERS/NUMBERS saying ITS FASTER!
 
Well, software transition hasn’t been great after 2 years it seems. Electron dominates more and more on the cross platform software side cause dev cost is way lower compared to native applications. And for native applications, Windows is still the platform of choice to spend money on. However powerful apple silicon might be, much of it is used to bear the burden of less and less optimised software that “support apple silicon” without supporting apple silicon.

Benchmark in and out of itself is fine, but those have been misused to the tilt and got them presented to layman who has no true experience in scientific research like someone rightfully pointed out a while ago. Much like ranking, people easily digest a single grade and make decision, only to realise they either overpay or underpay their dream solutions. It’s a sad trend but one will continue for a long while, because those YouTubers need money for their bills.
I agree I haven't been that thrilled with the Apple Silicon transition. Apple should definitely do something to make it better.

And yes, like I said benchmarks are all fine, but it only tells one story. How the system does with that specific benchmark.
 
It's not about the benchmarks themselves. It's what the benchmarks are revealing the things Apple doesn't want you to know. Eg. the SSD fiasco. Apple doesn't disclose the discrepancy. It's through benchmarks and testings that we find out the severe performance drop off from these machines. Why? Voila, the reason is exposed.

And benchmarks are also useful in knowing when the system will throttle. That will be informative to those who are trying to decide whether to buy the M2 Macbook Air or the M2 Macbook Pro.

The ones that are using benchmark without context, in a sense, is actually Apple, who simply shows misleading info like the M2 is x times faster, without disclosing the SSD caveat, even with the Pro unit.
 
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