Resurrecting the Fortnightly Challenge: Input and Ideas Please

[Phrasikleia]

I don't like being too negative or harsh if it were the case, so I'd simply rather not post if I had to be such way. That's just me but I'm sure others feel the same.

I am happy to receive negative/harsh comments on my photos.

Well, it may not be the best rule if a lot of people feel that way. I guess I would just say that you can always find something nice to say about an image, even if you think it has not succeeded overall.

I sometimes get called in to do competition critiquing at a local photography club. I have to do rapid-fire critiques of dozens of images in one go--speaking into a microphone for a large audience--as a panel of judges listens and scores the photos accordingly. My formula has been: something nice, body of the critique, something nice. That can be very tough if I think the photo has really missed the mark, but it has been really good practice for me to find at least two nice things to say about any image, no matter how problematic that image might be. So it can be done, but I'll admit it's not always easy.

 

[Designer Dale]

The general idea of a critique thread on a common subject has been done before on MR. Here are the rules that the Monthly Assignment functioned under;

Assignment #19 - Geometry
In order to encourage MR members to expand their "photographic" eye, monthly themes will continue to be offered. The idea is that members will go out and try to find their own way of interpreting the monthly theme. Posting is open to all MR members, and encouraged.

In keeping with the different skill/equipment levels that members have, it is asked that comments try to be constructive. The monthly themes are meant as a way to expand the way we look at things; not as a purely skill based competition.

General notes:
1. Assignments are open to all MR members.
2. By submitting artwork, members implicitly agree to all these rules.
3. Copyright of the artwork remains with the owner of the artwork.

Assignment topics:
1. Suggestions for the month's assignment are made in a single thread which will be set up late the month before.
2. The assignment topic will be voted on by all members (although only those intending to submit pictures should vote) - as a public vote
3. The assignment topic decision should never give less than 3 weeks of time to shoot the subject.
4. The top non-winning topic will go through to the next month's poll. The remainder of the topics get a month's rest so that we see some new options!

Submission rules:
1. The artwork must meet all other forum rules.
2. The artwork must meet all legal requirements. For example: authorization from models (if any) must be secured.
3. Members should be the owner of the artwork they submit.
4. While a member can submit more than one image, they can only submit one image of a particular subject.
5. The shooting of photo(s) must be created during the assignment period.
6. Artwork may be created by any kind of digital camera and any post-processing ("Photoshopping") the member sees fit. Post-processing must meet Photoshopping rules detailed below.

Comments/critique/discussion:
1. Discussion can begin at any point in the month
2. Comments, critiques and discussion must meet general forum rules.
3. Comments, critiques and discussion most be constructive, objective and aimed at improving the quality of the artwork.
4. Artistic choices (for example: choice of subject, assignment interpretation, etc.) may be discussed, but not criticized.
5. Equipment used may be discussed, commented or criticized only if this helps in improving artwork quality.
6. Comment posts must include a reference to the artwork being discussed.

Photoshopping rules:
1. Artwork may only be Photoshopped with explicit authorization from the owner (for any usage - in the thread or not) - owner can give this while posting.
2. If a picture is photoshopped, instructions on what processes were used would be appreciated so that others can learn.
3. The sole purpose of Photoshopping is to enhance the artisitic/technical quality of the artwork.

Here are links;

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/163036/

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/163070/

Dale

 

[TheReef]

^^^ There were way too many rules in that one, a lot of which redundant I agree - KISS.
Also I think the name "Challenge" is far more attractive to people than "Assignment".

EDIT: may as well suggest - what about adding "Photo" to the title to keep it inline with POTD and the weekly contest?
"Fortnightly Photo Challenge"

I guess I would just say that you can always find something nice to say about an image, even if you think it has not succeeded overall.

That is true.

You and acearchie's idea has it's pros and cons but seems to work well in the thread you linked, I'm happy to support the idea (minus the ratings) and see how it goes.

 

[Phrasikleia]

The general idea of a critique thread on a common subject has been done before on MR. Here are the rules that the Monthly Assignment functioned under ...[SNIP]...

No wonder that project petered out! Who wants to read a veritable dissertation just to participate in a thread? Yikes. Way over the top, in my opinion.


Some more thoughts from me...

How to ensure the success of a thread:

• It needs to offer something that other threads don't

• It should have a premise with popular appeal

• It should have clear and simple guidelines

• It should not depend upon the actions of any one individual (or oligarchy) in order to keep its momentum going

 

[Designer Dale]

As a photography newbie, I find the combination of this thought plus the "you must post a comment" idea to be somewhat scary. It sounds like the challenge is supposed to be inviting to people like me who need all the help in the world because we suck and don't have the experience to feel comfortable in other contests,

The last thing we want to do is scare you away. On the other hand you need show your work so we can assure you that it doesn't "suck". Experience is the best tool for learning anything.

but that also means we don't have that vocabulary to C&C other's work. What you can expect from me is along the lines of "I like the colours" or at best "You channel Ansel Adams very well", but beyond that I'm more familiar with the prints at Ikea than I am any real photography.

What I'm looking for is to replace "I like the colours" with "I like the colours in the sky because it makes it feel peaceful."

Yeah, I agree. Simple comments should be enough, even if it's just "great colors" (which is more specific than "nice pic"). Some people will be more laconic than others--nothing wrong with that. Despite what Dale had to say, I don't always unleash an "expanded vocabulary" when offering comments on an image. People who are comfortable with talking about images might have more to say, but even a simple bit of feedback is better than nothing.



That was actually acearchie's idea. But I don't know: what would make someone see a photo and be so unwilling to comment on it that they would hesitate to post? What might cause that kind of hesitation?

There are a number of these kinds of threads running on other forums, and they move along nicely. For example, there is this one on POTN. I think the rating system there is a bit harsh, and it seems to encourage very short comments (exclusively), so I would not recommend that kind of rating system, but the idea of commenting on the photo above you does seem to work.

What do other people think? Can you imagine a type of photo that would make you withhold your post simply to avoid having to comment on the previous photo? If so, then maybe it's not the best rule to have.

It was a compliment, silly. I was using you as an example of someone who knows how to talk about art. I want people to tell us why they like a photo in whatever words they can. Looking at a photo and seeing line, color and composition is a learned skill. My GF used to think I was wasting time with photography. She though a pic was a pic. Then I started to show her my work and tell her why I liked it. Now she looks at photos in a different way. She appreciates what she sees.

Dale

Edit: I chopped the Monthly Assignment down to it's essence (MO)


Assignment topics:

1. Suggestions for the month's assignment are made in a single thread which will be set up late the month before.
2. The assignment topic will be voted on as a public poll.


Submission rules:
5. The shooting of photo(s) must (should) be created during the assignment period.

Comments/critique/discussion:

3. Comments, critiques and discussion most be constructive, objective and aimed at improving the quality of the artwork.

6. Comment posts must include a reference to the artwork being discussed.

 

[JDDavis]

Lots of great ideas and the fact that this is generating discussion is proof to me that it's worth pursuing and getting right.

My comments:

I agree whole-heartedly with the thought of having a pre-determined number of topics chosen and scheduled. 3, 6, 9...heck even a years worth I think would be do-able. I think it would help people "prepare" to shoot that subject and it would help the challenge flow smoothly from one topic to the next without the lack of participation in topic selection burdening the challenge every two weeks. Rip the bandaid off once and be done with it. We could even plagiarize and recycle another similar forums topics. The list of scheduled topics could be a sticky and anyone could start the next one when it is time.

I agree with shooting the topic during the topic period (to the best of your ability) and that point emphasized in the rules but not enforced in any way. Except maybe like in POTD when someone says "hey man, that's like the 10th time we've seen this flower pic".

I don't think there should be any staunch requirement to provide a critique. If the challenge flourishes and people enjoy it the comments will come. Comments should be highly encouraged of course. I can testify as a amateur with no art background that if you force your self to comment on several photos every challenge you will start to get more comfortable with it and will learn a lot simply from trying to provide a worthwhile comment for someone else. Negative comments are just as welcome as positive. I want the negative ones...if any of my shots where perfect I'd be charging all of you to look at them. The only way we can get better and stop bad habits is with honest critiques. I can't give any one a technical critique of there photo but I can tell them why it does or does not work for me.

 

[Designer Dale]

I have put up a quick poll to see how many Challenges to run after each Topic Thread.

Vote Here

Edit: To add to what JDDavis mentioned about not being shy to use topics we see in other venues, I have an iPad app called PhotoVerse. It is kind of a Readers Digest of blogs and such for photographers. I see ideas for topics in the works of others every day.

Dale

 

[mtnbikemama]

I have put up a quick poll to see how many Challenges to run after each Topic Thread.

Vote Here

Edit: To add to what JDDavis mentioned about not being shy to use topics we see in other venues, I have an iPad app called PhotoVerse. It is kind of a Readers Digest of blogs and such for photographers. I see ideas for topics in the works of others every day.

Dale

I missed quite a discussion today! Sorry i missed it. Those blasted kids took up every minute I had today! Anyway, for what it's worth, I like the idea of knowing challenge topics a few weeks in advance. I find when I have an "assignment" I tend to get out more with my camera. I'm also trying to learn to use my camera in something other than "auto" mode. This camera is a bit more complicated than my 1965 Nikkormat! I think the challenge will encourage me to learn a bit more about my camera and why I got into photography in the first place.

Thank you, Dale for taking this on! This is turning into quite a project for you. I'll head over to see the poll you've posted.

 

[Ish]

There's a lot been going on while I was asleep! Can I just say first that this thread is an example of consultation at its best. When we throw an idea into the pot and leave go of it, it gets built on and the end result is a decision by everybody that is better than any one person might have thought of. Brilliant!

Planning topics in advance

Having a quarterly syllabus is not appealing to me for several reasons. It puts too much control in the hands of one person and is too much like school. Ideas come to me on a random basis and having to wait three months to bring them up would kill my thought process. The Challenge needs to be informal enough to promote participation. It has to be fun. If it doesn't fly on it's own, I'm not going to continue the effort required to keep it going.
Dale

I like the idea of deciding several topics in advance. Would is be possible to have a discussion thread and then near the end put a poll at the top so people can vote for the most popular ones?
Sort of a simple motion system where one person says I think "lose change" would be a good topic, then someone else seconds the topic. At the end all of the topics that have been seconded (or third-ed, or whatever) get put in a poll for everyone to vote on.

And also, it seems like a given to have a requirement to shoot the photo during the actual challenge period.

I like the idea of choosing several topics too and think that's a great idea to have a poll. Dale, heaven forbid it should feel like school; if it does, count me out! If you have a photography notebook could you have a page for Fortnightly Challenge ideas? (Personally I love notebooks!) Would having a brainstorming followed by n number of Challenges make less work?

There's a balance to be struck here, maybe, between keeping the Challenge more versatile and making it easier to run. There's no point in having a topic of Snow for example and finding it doesn't come round until May. Yes that's a bit extreme I know but I just wanted to make a point. Possibly a set of Challenges each season? Spring, March-May; Summer, June-Aug; Autumn, Sept-Nov; Winter, Dec-Feb.

Shooting for the Challenge

You might consider adding a requirement that people actually shoot for the challenge. Otherwise, change the name to reflect what it will really be: a theme-based photo sharing thread with a few critiques thrown in.

When people shoot for the theme, they will be far more invested in their photos and more likely to put their best work forward, especially if they have a month or more to work on it. That kind of investment and effort is likely to result in a far more exciting thread.

If we do decide to have this, I prefer the guideline that photos should be shot for the Challenge to a rule that says all photos must be shot within the Challenge period. Knowing what is coming up is obviously helpful here! As another example, there are two places in the UK, not far from each other, that both vie as the place furthest from the sea and I live near them. Say the subject was the ocean, I'd want to shoot that while I was at the ocean. I wouldn't have time to make a special trip.


Commenting on Photos

Look back through POTD for comments from Phrasikleia. She has an academic background in art history and never says "Nice pic".

Dale

If we have a few simple rules, I think we can expect people to follow them for the most part:

1) You must comment on the photo above you before posting a photo of your own. You may comment on any other photos optionally.

2) You do not need to post a photo in order to comment on one.

3) If you do post a photo, it must be one you shot for the challenge, not one from your archives.

Something like that ought to be enough as far as rules go.

Could this be too restrictive? Could it influence somebody to not submit because they don't want to comment on a specific image?
Maybe loosen it up a bit? something like you have to keep your comments and image postings in balance, eg if you make 2 comments, you can post 2 images at any later stage? I'm not sure... just putting forward the thought.
It is good how with your idea all photos are commented on, it'll make people think more carefully about their submission.

I don't like being too negative or harsh if it were the case, so I'd simply rather not post if I had to be such way. That's just me but I'm sure others feel the same.

Well, it may not be the best rule if a lot of people feel that way. I guess I would just say that you can always find something nice to say about an image, even if you think it has not succeeded overall.

The idea is to give constructive criticism, not judgement. I have no background in art critique either, I trained in science though I do do some graphic design. One can always find something constructive to say along with some suggestions. Building on what was said above, so that no-one is put off posting by having to comment, how about something like:

[paragraph about the aim of the Challenge and offering constructive criticism]

Guidelines for posting in the Fortnightly Challenge:

1. Please comment on the photo above you before posting a photo of your own. You may also comment on any other photos.

2. You do not need to post a photo in order to comment on one.

3. If you do post a photo, it must be one you shot for the challenge, not one from your archives.


Rating Photos

A rating system I reckon would be good. Comments aren't so easy to decipher but a rating system pretty solidly states whether someone thinks it's above average quality (>5) or below (<5)

However, some newer members or people new to photography may not be comfortable either marking older members or would be worried about a low score. I for one don't mind at all what my rating would be as long as there is some justification.

^^^ There were way too many rules in that one, a lot of which redundant I agree - KISS.
Also I think the name "Challenge" is far more attractive to people than "Assignment".

EDIT: may as well suggest - what about adding "Photo" to the title to keep it inline with POTD and the weekly contest?
"Fortnightly Photo Challenge"

That is true.

You and acearchie's idea has it's pros and cons but seems to work well in the thread you linked, I'm happy to support the idea (minus the ratings) and see how it goes.

I'm not keen on any form of rating system as I said earlier, I think it could put some people off entering, but would obviously go with the majority. By the way, what's KISS?


flikr

There is a Flickr Pool for the Challenge. I'm the Mod. It wasn't well promoted or patronized, but we could work on that.

Dale told me a long time ago about the flikr group but I was put off joining by having to sign up for a Yahoo account I don't want. Has anyone noticed any negative consequences of having to do this?

 

[oblomow]

I agree on the simple rules. So not to scare people of. So, photo shot during the assignment and comment on other submitted photo's. No voting system please. And it would be nice to have a schedule of upcoming challenges.

 

[TheReef]

By the way, what's KISS?

I'm sorry to ignore that rather meaty post at the moment, it's late so to quickly answer your question it stands for "Keep it Simple, Stupid!"

 

[Eaon]

By the way, what's KISS?

Awesome band from the 80's? Nah, what TheReef said.

Dale told me a long time ago about the flikr group but I was put off joining by having to sign up for a Yahoo account I don't want. Has anyone noticed any negative consequences of having to do this?

I'm been wondering about the whole Flikr thing too - my family has been pushing me to get in to photo sharing now that I'm getting in to photo taking. But I checked it out just recently and see that you don't have to have a Yahoo account. You can sign in using either a Google account or a Facebook account instead. So really, to further Ish's question rather than answer it, has anyone tried that?

 

[Phrasikleia]

If we do decide to have this, I prefer the guideline that photos should be shot for the Challenge to a rule that says all photos must be shot within the Challenge period.

It really just depends on whether or not we go the route of having topics scheduled in advance. If we have a schedule, the rule would be to shoot "for" the challenge. Without a schedule, the rule would of course be to shoot "during" the challenge.

 

[compuwar]

I am happy to receive negative/harsh comments on my photos.

I enjoyed negative comments when I shot reversal film, and positive comments when I shot slides! Now I just get a bunch of bits!

Paul

 

[compuwar]

Dale told me a long time ago about the flikr group but I was put off joining by having to sign up for a Yahoo account I don't want. Has anyone noticed any negative consequences of having to do this?

I've not commented on several images since they made it a requirement to sign in- if I can't browse without signing in, I'm probably skipping it. I don't care what ID they want- I don't feel the need to identify myself in any way to critique an image. It's enough that I'm logged in here.

Paul

 

[Phrasikleia]

I've not commented on several images since they made it a requirement to sign in- if I can't browse without signing in, I'm probably skipping it. I don't care what ID they want- I don't feel the need to identify myself in any way to critique an image. It's enough that I'm logged in here.

Paul

Same here. I have no intentions of starting up a flickr account. None.

 

[Designer Dale]

Hi. I hit the poll first and want to post my quote of Phrasikleia over here. I don't want the poll to get confused with the discussion.

From "How many Challenges per Topic Thread:

I'm not sure you're clear on the concept. There would still be only one active topic at a time, but if there is a schedule, a person can shoot for upcoming topics as time allows and then post them when those topics become active. If someone has a chance to go out shooting one weekend, he can work on several topics that weekend. Then he has some time to process the photos at his leisure (or even reshoot them) while waiting for the right periods to post each one.

I assume we want to state that photos should be taken within the Challenge timeframe. "Frames" followed by "Point of View" would mean shooting "frames" when that post thread for it is up and shooting "POV" during it's post period.

My thought is to try to shoot the topic during the Challenge time frame devoted to it. If you happen across an amazing photo op for a future Challenge, take the opportunity and save it for future presentation. This would allow enough flexibility to do a lot of shooting if you find yourself in Aruba for two weeks.

Dale

 

[fcortese]

Same here. I have no intentions of starting up a flickr account. None.

Ditto!

Hi. I hit the poll first and want to post my quote of Phrasikleia over here. I don't want the poll to get confused with the discussion.

From "How many Challenges per Topic Thread:

I assume we want to state that photos should be taken within the Challenge timeframe. "Frames" followed by "Point of View" would mean shooting "frames" when that post thread for it is up and shooting "POV" during it's post period.

My thought is to try to shoot the topic during the Challenge time frame devoted to it. If you happen across an amazing photo op for a future Challenge, take the opportunity and save it for future presentation. This would allow enough flexibility to do a lot of shooting if you find yourself in Aruba for two weeks.

Dale

Sounds very good especially the two weeks in Aruba-where you just might find some photo ops to fit into some challange or topic entry! Maybe write the trip off on taxes?

 

[AxisOfBeagles]

Sounds very good especially the two weeks in Aruba-where you just might find some photo ops to fit into some challange or topic entry! Maybe write the trip off on taxes?

It so happens that I have a week in the Turks & Caicos coming up in April - I look forward to a challenge topic along the lines of "close ups of pina coladas at the beach bar".

 

[Designer Dale]

Moved from the poll thread:

Just an additonal thought. I am not sure if this was mentioned in all of the discussion to this point, but I would be in favor of NOT limiting the entry to just one picture per participant. If someone has several what they fell are good entries, they should be allowed to post them. I am not suggesting mutilple pictures with one post, but posting an addtional picture(s) in separate post(s). If need be maybe set an upper limit of two or three. Like I said, just a thought.

The original Challenge didn't limit submissions. That's one way that we kept it seperate from the Weekly Contest and POTD.

Reshoots were encouraged based on input if the subject was accessible. Reshooting a landscape with a change in framing or just a horizontal horizon will teach more about getting it right the first time than tweaking in post.

Dale

 

[Phrasikleia]

Hi. I hit the poll first and want to post my quote of Phrasikleia over here. I don't want the poll to get confused with the discussion.

From "How many Challenges per Topic Thread:

I assume we want to state that photos should be taken within the Challenge timeframe. "Frames" followed by "Point of View" would mean shooting "frames" when that post thread for it is up and shooting "POV" during it's post period.

My thought is to try to shoot the topic during the Challenge time frame devoted to it. If you happen across an amazing photo op for a future Challenge, take the opportunity and save it for future presentation. This would allow enough flexibility to do a lot of shooting if you find yourself in Aruba for two weeks.

Dale

Let's not complicate matters with special terminology and unnecessary rules. Simply put, photos should be shot FOR a particular challenge topic, as opposed to being fished out of a personal photo archive. You see the topic on the schedule and shoot something for that topic. You post it when the relevant topic becomes active. Simple enough.

 

[sebascrub]

Another beginner's voice, just to add to the direction in which this is going. I would love to have a couple of weeks' worth of Challenges available since, between finishing my MA and a couple of jobs, I don't really have time to drop everything and shoot if a particular challenge catches my eye. By knowing what's coming up, I can make more of an effort on weekends or days off to go outside and shoot specific things. As it stands now, the bulk of my shooting is done in dark clubs at a frantic pace while I try to get the perfect shot of a band in the first three songs of the set. I'd love to branch out and the Challenges provide a pretty rad motivation to shoot different things with different techniques, rather than wide open and as high ISO as I can bear.

As far as comments go, while it can be intimidating to comment other people's work (especially the incredibly talented photographers who challenge us all), I think everyone has at least something to say about a photo. A photo will move you or not and for very specific reasons in each case. It's just a matter of figuring out what those reasons are (ie. colour choice, subject matter, technique, post-processing, etc).

Whatever the outcome, I do look forward to posting my first Challenge shot and improving my own photography skills!

 

[AxisOfBeagles]

Let's not complicate matters with special terminology and unnecessary rules. Simply put, photos should be shot FOR a particular challenge topic, as opposed to being fished out of a personal photo archive. You see the topic on the schedule and shoot something for that topic. You post it when the relevant topic becomes active. Simple enough.

Bingo

 

[Designer Dale]

First Draft

This is what I have been able to distill from all the chatter:


A Topic Thread will be used to select Challenge topics. It will collect ideas for a total of three Challenge threads (six weeks of photography) A poll will chose those three topics.

A new Topic Thread will open during the last week of the last current Challenge.

Each Challenge will run for two weeks (one fortnight).

Shoot for the topics listed in the Topic thread. You may shoot for upcoming topics, but post photos only to their matching Challenges

You may post as many photos as you wish for any one Challenge.

Comments are critical to the success of the Challenge. If you post a photo, add a comment to another one. If you are only viewing, please add your comments, also.

Comments should be meaningful, something that the photographer can use to improve his/her work. Explain why you like or dislike a photo. "I like this photo because the colors are nice and warm" means more than " I like the colors".

Dale

Note: I may not be back to this until tomorrow.

Edit relating to the last post in the poll: We can leave the number of Challenges per Topic Thread as a flexible number. If three is successful, it can be expanded to six and so on. It doesn't even need to have a fixed ratio of Challenges. Just shoot until the topics are exhausted and start over with a new Topic Thread. The longest any thread like this has lasted is 18 months (The Monthly Assignment). The Fortnightly Challenge in it's last incarnation lasted for around a year. It was often held up by three shooters.

 

[Phrasikleia]

Edit relating to the last post in the poll: We can leave the number of Challenges per Topic Thread as a flexible number. If three is successful, it can be expanded to six and so on. It doesn't even need to have a fixed ratio of Challenges. Just shoot until the topics are exhausted and start over with a new Topic Thread. The longest any thread like this has lasted is 18 months (The Monthly Assignment). The Fortnightly Challenge in it's last incarnation lasted for around a year. It was often held up by three shooters.

Yeah, may as well start out with three and see how it goes. If the pace seems too fast, then expand it to six or more.

Before reading your points summary, I took a stab at a boilerplate head-post for the challenge. I'll paste it in a subsequent post in a minute.