That's the point. On a cMBP you can buy 3rd party upgrades. On a rMBP you have to buy mostly everything from Apple and pay through the roof for it. And what you order is what you get. You can't change it without buying a new machine.
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Retina Hardly Noticeable
- Thread starter xShane
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That's the point. On a cMBP you can buy 3rd party upgrades. On a rMBP you have to buy mostly everything from Apple and pay through the roof for it. And what you order is what you get. You can't change it without buying a new machine.
I have a problem with the retina screen...
I need to buy a new camera.
I can see stuff in my photos that I never noticed before.
I compared the non and the retina displays in the Apple store, and for me it was a huge leap, so I bought it.
MeBird and MeDad looked at it and went meh, it's OK. They wouldn't have bought it, because they don't appreciate it. I do and so did.
It's like a mate I have who's into his music. He was raving about this new speaker cable he'd just bought, and demonstrated it to me. I couldn't tell the difference between it and bell wire, but he could and was very happy with his purchase.
There is no right or wrong, just opinions, and as we all know, opinions are like...
I need to buy a new camera.
I can see stuff in my photos that I never noticed before.
I compared the non and the retina displays in the Apple store, and for me it was a huge leap, so I bought it.
MeBird and MeDad looked at it and went meh, it's OK. They wouldn't have bought it, because they don't appreciate it. I do and so did.
It's like a mate I have who's into his music. He was raving about this new speaker cable he'd just bought, and demonstrated it to me. I couldn't tell the difference between it and bell wire, but he could and was very happy with his purchase.
There is no right or wrong, just opinions, and as we all know, opinions are like...
Benchmark it against a Retina you will be surprised. The Retina keeps a higher clock running full tilt compared to the Pro.
RE: your eyes are too good...
Hi xShane,
Let me apologize first of all: I did not read through all of the posts in this thread, only your original posting, so if someone else has already suggested this, I apologize for repeating it.
Your eyes are too good (or you are too young - probably both)! Meaning that you can sit farther from the display and still see it fine, unlike us old farts. When you are farther from a display screen, then the individual pixels are smaller, in terms of their subtended angles, than the human eye can distinguish. If you can't distinguish the individual pixels visually, then you won't notice much difference between the displays. That is to say, you won't notice the resolution differences since your eyes can't resolve the actual pixels, but you still might notice a difference in colors, blacks, and contrast.
I believe this is what often happens when someone visits a Best Buy and views a rMBP sitting next to a uMBP or even a cMBP. You just naturally are farther away from the screens when viewing the Best Buy display (at least this is true for me, because I'm too much of an antediluvian troglodyte to stoop down as far as I would need to in order to be at a natural viewing distance to the laptops) than you are when sitting at your desk actually using the laptop. And since you are farther away when comparing the Best Buy display models, both the 110 PPI and the 220 PPI screens have pixels subtending angles too small for you to distinguish from the greater distance -- i.e., both displays look more-or-less the same.
...just another thought...
Regards,
Switon
P.S. (By the way, the subtended angle distinguishable by the human eye is dependent upon the physics (optics) of the human eye, especially the size of the pupil (aperture) which depends upon the intensity of the illumination light as well as the age of the person -- the older you get the smaller your maximum pupil size. Believe it or not, but a smaller pupil allows for a smaller subtended angle to be distinguished since there is less "confusion, blurring" in the focal plane with a smaller aperture. Rather, a young person is favored because the young person's eye can focus (more flexible lens) over a greater range than an older person, thus allowing a young person's eyes to be more accommodating to visual distances, excepting in the case of a hyperopic oldster.)
Hi xShane,
Let me apologize first of all: I did not read through all of the posts in this thread, only your original posting, so if someone else has already suggested this, I apologize for repeating it.
Your eyes are too good (or you are too young - probably both)! Meaning that you can sit farther from the display and still see it fine, unlike us old farts. When you are farther from a display screen, then the individual pixels are smaller, in terms of their subtended angles, than the human eye can distinguish. If you can't distinguish the individual pixels visually, then you won't notice much difference between the displays. That is to say, you won't notice the resolution differences since your eyes can't resolve the actual pixels, but you still might notice a difference in colors, blacks, and contrast.
I believe this is what often happens when someone visits a Best Buy and views a rMBP sitting next to a uMBP or even a cMBP. You just naturally are farther away from the screens when viewing the Best Buy display (at least this is true for me, because I'm too much of an antediluvian troglodyte to stoop down as far as I would need to in order to be at a natural viewing distance to the laptops) than you are when sitting at your desk actually using the laptop. And since you are farther away when comparing the Best Buy display models, both the 110 PPI and the 220 PPI screens have pixels subtending angles too small for you to distinguish from the greater distance -- i.e., both displays look more-or-less the same.
...just another thought...
Regards,
Switon
P.S. (By the way, the subtended angle distinguishable by the human eye is dependent upon the physics (optics) of the human eye, especially the size of the pupil (aperture) which depends upon the intensity of the illumination light as well as the age of the person -- the older you get the smaller your maximum pupil size. Believe it or not, but a smaller pupil allows for a smaller subtended angle to be distinguished since there is less "confusion, blurring" in the focal plane with a smaller aperture. Rather, a young person is favored because the young person's eye can focus (more flexible lens) over a greater range than an older person, thus allowing a young person's eyes to be more accommodating to visual distances, excepting in the case of a hyperopic oldster.)
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I did and I see multiple threads where you're spreading your propaganda and trying to push your agenda.
That was not the point of mentioning the billboard. It has to do with the benefit of having a greater pixel density (or for prints, more dots per inch). If the billboard example is too obtuse, the comparison of placing an iPad or iPhone beside a rMBP should prove the same point. Both devices have a greater pixel density than the retina screen on a MBP, but I strongly doubt that anyone would be able to tell the difference unless they moved closer. I sit a bit over an arm's length away from my MBP (standard screen), and I can't tell the difference between it and my iPad 3 when they're the same distance away. That isn't to say no person alive would be able to see the difference, but my vision is better than most people I've interacted with.
Nice post, switon. I think that explains a lot of it what people are seeing and experiencing.
Very interesting post. I sit a decent distance away from my computer to protect my eyes.
As I understand it, the human eye can only distinguish certain resolutions from certain distances.
I understood this concept originally, but it goes to show how many people can instantly hate, participate in name-calling, and make false claims that I'm just spreading propaganda.
There's always a rational explanation for everything. You're one of the few intelligent people to point it out. Thanks for contributing something worthwhile.
Like it or not, that is the trend industrywide. Apple is just ahead of it, as usual. Look at the Surface Pro and countless "Ultrabooks." Some of the MacBook Air clones are shipping with 4GB soldered RAM without even an 8GB option. The Chromebook Pixel doesn't even have screws on the case.
I wouldn't be surprised if the rMBP is the only MBP after this summer (at least in the consumer market - education might be different for another year or so).
The days of upgradability are numbered. With USB 3.0 (and if manufacturers ever embrace it, Thunderbolt), it's easy to add external peripherals. With SSDs, page-outs to disk aren't as noticeable to the average consumer or even "prosumer." We're pretty much at a point where people buy a PC, use it for 3-4 years, and then buy a new one when it no longer suits their needs.
I wouldn't mind that either, given that it's a better 2nd gen product with less issues and problems as experienced with this first gen.
Oh the naive... second gen will include new issues while only (hopefully) resolving existing issues.
Glad to know you like me so much that you lurk all my posts and take the time out of your own day to respond with insulting/false comments... on my thread. I'm flattered.
To think a 2nd gen product will not have any issues because its a 2nd gen product is simply idiotic and naive. That's not a false or insulting statement. Its a fact.
Where exactly did I say it would not have any issues? Seems like you're perpetuating a false event to feel better about yourself.
Bingo.. the same reason you created this thread to begin with. The Retina has a significant difference in PPI than the non-Retina. JUST because YOU can't see the difference DOESN'T mean it doesn't exist. The fact remains it exists, even if someone eye's can't tell the difference.
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There's a difference, just nothing extraordinary.
I personally don't have my face buried into the screen, so I honestly could care less if the resolution appears to be higher at an unrealistic viewing distance.
I see a huge difference but Im closer to my screen. If I was far I couldn't read crap since my eyes suck as I have gotten older.
And the resolution and PPI is actually extraordinary, considering HDTV's can't even touch the PPI or resolution.
It's not worth it to go back and fourth with the OP...At this point it's pure entertainment. For some reason the OP decided to take an all out assault on the Retina MBP. And honestly it could be for a variety of reasons ranging from finances, not wanting to be stuck with a machine that can't be upgraded, or just the simple fact of not caring and being ok with a reg screen (which is fine)
However It's crazy how many threads the OP pops into to talk about how the Retina screen is not a sizable difference from a normal MBP screen, and how it's not worth the jump in price, etc. And IMO everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I never knock people for what they like. But this is starting to look like a case of someone dropping the ball, not getting a Retina, and jumping all over the place trying to convince himself and others that the difference is minimal to just make himself feel better...It's comical it this point!
My advice to the OP is just enjoy your laptop...Us retina owners are very happy with what we got and could care less if someone can't or won't admit that the rMBP is just a real kick A## Machine with an amazing screen. I don't care who see's the difference, I see it every time I open the lid to rMBP, and Love it!
RE: human eye angular resolution: 1'
Hi xShane,
If I remember correctly, the human eye can only distinguish an angular resolution of 1', give or take a little. Thus if two dots are placed so that the angle subtended by them at the human eye is less than 1', then the eye cannot distinguish the two dots and sees them as one. (Note that this is angular resolution, if the two dots are very far away from you, say light years, then the two dots can be quite far apart and you still will not be able to distinguish them.) This is just physics (optics). The maximum angular resolution distinguishable by any optical (or radio) system depends upon the size of the system's aperture. Since humans typically have comparably sized eyes, all humans can distinguish roughly comparable angular resolutions: roughly 1'. I did the following calculations when the retina screens first came out: I calculated that for a 220 PPI screen at my common viewing distance, the angle subtended by two adjacent pixels was less than 1' and thus for me, this screen would be truly "retina", meaning that my eye could not distinguish individual pixels on the screen at my viewing distance. This is an easy calculation to perform, requiring just a modicum of trigonometry.
Regards,
Switon
P.S. As an example, the resolving of the "black hole" at the center of our galaxy is limited by the size of the orbit of the Earth. Radio telescopes on the Earth can record radio waves from the galactic center and then 6 months later, when the Earth has traveled halfway around the Sun, record additional radio waves making for an aperture the size of the Earth's orbit (roughly 186 million miles). This orbit-sized aperture then sets the smallest possible object that can be resolved at the galactic center: the aperture size determines the angular resolution possible (Airy discs, and all that, requiring a Fourier analysis to determine if two peaks are distinct --- if you want to be technical and mathematically proper).
Hi xShane,
If I remember correctly, the human eye can only distinguish an angular resolution of 1', give or take a little. Thus if two dots are placed so that the angle subtended by them at the human eye is less than 1', then the eye cannot distinguish the two dots and sees them as one. (Note that this is angular resolution, if the two dots are very far away from you, say light years, then the two dots can be quite far apart and you still will not be able to distinguish them.) This is just physics (optics). The maximum angular resolution distinguishable by any optical (or radio) system depends upon the size of the system's aperture. Since humans typically have comparably sized eyes, all humans can distinguish roughly comparable angular resolutions: roughly 1'. I did the following calculations when the retina screens first came out: I calculated that for a 220 PPI screen at my common viewing distance, the angle subtended by two adjacent pixels was less than 1' and thus for me, this screen would be truly "retina", meaning that my eye could not distinguish individual pixels on the screen at my viewing distance. This is an easy calculation to perform, requiring just a modicum of trigonometry.
Regards,
Switon
P.S. As an example, the resolving of the "black hole" at the center of our galaxy is limited by the size of the orbit of the Earth. Radio telescopes on the Earth can record radio waves from the galactic center and then 6 months later, when the Earth has traveled halfway around the Sun, record additional radio waves making for an aperture the size of the Earth's orbit (roughly 186 million miles). This orbit-sized aperture then sets the smallest possible object that can be resolved at the galactic center: the aperture size determines the angular resolution possible (Airy discs, and all that, requiring a Fourier analysis to determine if two peaks are distinct --- if you want to be technical and mathematically proper).
People out here tend to dimiss that idea and blame the user for buying the "wrong" machine. But I think complaining about upgradability is a valid point because not everyone knows what they want to do with their Macs until they've used it for a bit.
My sister-in-law bought an MBA11 64GB as her FIRST Mac thinking she would essentially use it as a netbook. But when she realized how much she could do with iMovie and iPhoto then she's run into a storage wall that she cant get around without selling her entire computer just to get a 128GB upgrade.
And for me, I had a 256GB Air that I managed to fit most of my essential data on so when it was time to buy an rMBP then I figured 256GB would be ok. But what I didnt account for was that this is also an amazing gaming machine and no I'm writing symbolic links to an external storage drive just to get things like my Steam library accessible.
For me, I'm within my return policy so I'm not stuck. But it does stink that the ONLY reason I will end up getting a different Mac is because of Apple's upgrade pricing structure.
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I have an rMBP15 and I definitely can "see" the difference between Retina vs Non-Retina, I'm just debating whether or not that difference has a monetary value. I reworked my last photoshoot on my rMBP and the photos look stunning. But then when I saw the photos on a colleagues computer and printed out then they looked ordinary again. So, while Retina has obvious benefits for a photographer, until its a standard then it's hard to price out its value.
I got a good laugh from that. You're the one providing the true entertainment.
People here tend to think I'm "against" the rMBP. In reality, I'm not.
Using the rMBP for photo work is a very valid reason for owning a rMBP. However, you brought up a very good point. That being said, I could see where Retina would be useful if one needed the best resolution/viewing possible for photos. But for the average user, or even power use (where performance is required, such as compiling), Retina is just a "benefit" and not a necessity. Because of that, I'm more focused on what *else* the machine has to offer. The lack of upgrade-ability is probably the most concerning factor. Another thing is the issues and chance of image retention.
The Retina screen itself is a cool idea, but I only see it as the tip of the iceberg.
Retina also has USB3 and HDMI.
This is really a no-brainer, at similar configs the cMBP and the rMBP are the same price
Also-The speaker system. Easily 3X louder. Unreal sound
Holy Crap! Enough already man, like seriously enough with the benefit and necessity stuff...You bought what you bought, and some of us bought what we bought. It's like beating a dead horse already. Now you like the retina, and it's a cool idea, but theres no benefit? You don't call this entertainment..lmaoo
Upgrading to 16 gigs of ram is actually $200. Still over priced but not a big deal
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This guy is a friggin genius. I felt my IQ score rise while reading his post
You clearly have no idea what this thread is all about. It has nothing to do with me buying a rMBP or having bought a cMBP.
You're creating something out of nothing.