Retina MacBook Pro Pushes the Limits of its Graphics Capabilities

[Xian Zhu Xuande]

Ah, .... no. If you run it at native 2880x1800 there's no scaling down.
And if there's no scaling, it's only one drawing path.

With scaling, integral factor or not, there's alway two drawing operations.
One into the larger texture and the second one on the screen itself.

So, with the native retina hack, there's no overdraw...

I mentioned it before, but might as well mention it again here. I'm using a scaled setting on my RMBP and I'm experiencing absolutely no performance issues that I would have considered noteworthy, and I'm certainly not experiencing a negative performance issue which does justice to this article (I outlined the details in an early page).

I'm on the scaled option above the default, but not on one of the higher ones. If that starts to manifest graphic performance issues of some sort I haven't had enough experience to comment on it. I tried it for a little bit, though, and everything was running smoothly. I switched off it because everything was far too small on the screen for me to be productive.

 

[MacBird]

I would have been sold on a rMBP sans Retina. I like all the specs and feature of the rMBP but don't care for the Retina screen.

What you'd get without a Retina screen.
-Cheaper entry level price (that's subjective to Apple)
-Longer battery life.
-Higher performing graphics card (if it's not busting it's ass to run the screen it can run your games/programs faster)
-Cooler screen (though this one is moot)

That plus an IPS display.

 

[proaudio22]

I think it's funny all these people dogging the rMBP who have never even seen one in person, certainly not used one for any extended period. Spec bashing.

And the same people are then using the idea that it "probably" sucks to justify not getting one - "oh, I'm so glad I didn't get one". You are just shorting yourself. But that's fine, everyone else's rMBP will get there faster. So you are right, it sucks - don't buy one so I can get mine faster!

I'm still using iMac's with crappy 256MB HD4670s for work. I often use them with Matrox Triple-Head2Go DPs running 3840x768 AND rendering blended edges so that the final outputs make one big screen from three projectors. It works fine, sometimes a bit laggy with movie files that are actually 2912x768 (effective resolution of a 20% overlap blend) but c'mon - think about those files. I have no doubt the 650M can do just fine with this display, its so many times faster than these 4670s. I'm sure it will be fine even when running an external display - and I certainly intend to three external displays with the TH2G DPs.

I'll probably pickup a rMBP when supplies ease up. I played with the demo unit at Best Buy, it's a dang sweet computer. And really, it's not THAT expensive. People are acting like it's $5000. If they come up with one next year that is THAT much better, I'll buy one of those. But it's doubtful it will be that much greater. Chances are the third generation will be an even bigger step and then I'll sell off the first rMBP. It was that way with the iPad. The 2 was nice, but my 1 was doing fine so I waited and the "3" is fantastic. All the while my "early adopter" 1 was great and I got to enjoy it all along the way, unlike those who decided to wait for the next iterations. Screw that, have your cake and eat the better cake too if it comes along.

 

[stevelam]

I wasn't going to comment until you tossed a grenade.

Anyone who uses the current iPhones with retina display, versus the older ones, or people who use the new iPad versus the older ones know that yes you could of course read the older ones, but reading the retina is a joy. It does make things better. Its not a black and white matter of work or not work, but work or works better. The retina is better for reading. Nothing to argue about.

And the computer is plenty fast enough even with the retina display. And as software comes out to take advantage of it, even better. So yes it does give it legs into the future over older technology.

You don't have to max out the processor and storage to have a computer that will in fact run updates for several years.

If someone wants the rMBP, whats it to you?

i don't care if someone WANTS the RMBP. i'm talking about people trying to justify needing an RMBP for college. want and need are the not the same thing, last time i checked.

near $3k just to 'read' better on a laptop that i've never seen anyone complain about before is the second stupidest thing i've read today.

 

[jefftomascak]

will it drive 2 cinema displays ok?

I just ordered the retina MBP and 2 Apple Thunderbolt displays, has anyone tested this setup? will it drive the monitors smoothly??

 

[Lvivske]

Yeah, I figured it'd be best to wait for a 2nd or 3rd iteration before jumping on board. No regrets getting a MBA instead, though. Best computer I've ever owned

I don't see the point of waiting until 2014 to get something you can get today, if the only concern is a slight bump in web scrolling frame rate

 

[pmau]

i don't care if someone WANTS the RMBP. i'm talking about people trying to justify needing an RMBP for college. want and need are the not the same thing, last time i checked.

near $3k just to 'read' better on a laptop that i've never seen anyone complain about before is the second stupidest thing i've read today.

Totally agreed.

You don't really "need" those features. For nothing.
You just want them because they seem exciting.

But hardware develops way too fast. This time the price tag is too much for a device that will be seeing upgrades in just a few month.

This is just a prototype, in my opinion. A market research.
Will it be accepted? How far can we push our view of hardware design?
How much unmodifiable hardware will be accepted?

This time they aimed to high ... at least for me.
I just checked. I can by a new Air and a Cinema Display for the same price.

----------

I don't see the point of waiting until 2014 to get something you can get today, if the only concern is a slight bump in web scrolling frame rate

And I don't see the point shelling out that amount a money for a laptop that operates at its limits just by scrolling a portion of the screen...

 

[The-Pro]

Am I the only person who doesn't understand why the GPU needs to render 3840x2400 when switching to 1920x1200 when the screen is only 2880x1800?

 

[pmau]

Am I the only person who doesn't understand why the GPU needs to render 3840x2400 when switching to 1920x1200 when the screen is only 2880x1800?

Because you would draw at 1920x1200 and scale that UP.
This would cause distortion.

If you draw at 3840x2400 in full detail and scale that DOWN, the quality is much better because you have more data to interpolate.

Scaling up mean extrapolating, which is creating more data from less instead of creating less data from more.

 

[jent]

What's the application in the screenshot used to monitor frames per second?

 

[The-Pro]

Because you would draw at 1920x1200 and scale that UP.
This would cause distortion.

If you draw at 3840x2400 in full detail and scale that DOWN, the quality is much better because you have more data to interpolate.

Scaling up mean extrapolating, which is creating more data from less instead of creating less data from more.

Ahhhh that makes sense. Cheers

 

[pmau]

What's the application in the screenshot used to monitor frames per second?

If you install Xcode, it's part of the optional "Graphics Tools For Xcode".
It's called OpenGL Profiler.

EDIT
It's called "Quartz Debug", but the package is correct nevertheless.

 

[funkybudda]

Totally agreed.

You don't really "need" those features. For nothing.
You just want them because they seem exciting.

But hardware develops way too fast. This time the price tag is too much for a device that will be seeing upgrades in just a few month.

This is just a prototype, in my opinion. A market research.
Will it be accepted? How far can we push our view of hardware design?
How much unmodifiable hardware will be accepted?

This time they aimed to high ... at least for me.
I just checked. I can by a new Air and a Cinema Display for the same price.

----------



And I don't see the point shelling out that amount a money for a laptop that operates at its limits just by scrolling a portion of the screen...

exactly, Apple put out something that $3000+ to test the market for a disposable, overpriced, none-upgradable laptop to see if people will buy it. Just like the commercials with Siri, it always looks and works better in commercials, that's about it.

 

[iBug2]

So, what's the problem with the graphics? is it the VRAM or the PCI bandwidth?

It's Safari using only one core to scroll.

----------

Btw, did anyone check how much fps you get at facebook scrolling on your own machine? With 5870 on my 30" ACD I seem to get bad fps scrolling facebook and 100% cpu usage as well. It certainly is quite visible if I scroll facebook vs macrumors. Macrumors scrolls much more fluid (I just use the arrow keys to scroll to get the same speed of scrolling on both sites).


8 Core Mac Pro with ATI 5870 on 30" ACD with 2560*1600

Scrolling Facebook bad fps and 100% cpu on Safari web process

Scrolling Macrumors, good fps and 8% cpu Safari web process

Are we sure that this is actually a rMBP issue?

 

[proaudio22]

I just ordered the retina MBP and 2 Apple Thunderbolt displays, has anyone tested this setup? will it drive the monitors smoothly??

Are you going to use all three displays at once or close the lid and just use the two externals? It can probably handle all three just fine, as you aren't likely to be running motion content on all three at the same time. Probably will have workspace or toolbars on one, content on another, etc. You are only going to have the mouse on one screen at a time doing something.

If you will have motion content on all monitors, well you may be the first to try it. See my comment above about an old iMac running three displays just fine. I'm sure this one will be fine too.

If you are going to close the lid while using the external monitors on a desktop, then that should be no problem at all.

----------

Are we sure that this is actually a rMBP issue?

No, and most people whining about it don't even have a rMBP.

Good observation.

 

[strausd]

The native screen is 2880x1800, that is where you will get the best quality picture. Trying to go higher or lower will result in image distortion. So whatever image you send to the display, it should be at 2880x1800 to get the best possible image.

Now, given that the typical screen real estate on the 15" is 1440x900, Apple figured it could just double the pixels in each direction and that'll achieve your 2880x1800. So everything there is rosy.

Now, with the 1920x1200 real estate, you have two options. You can either just bump it up to 2880x1800, which gives you a multiples of 1.5x which are not rounded numbers, or you can double the pixels in each direction to achieve 3840x2400 and then downscale it to the 2880x1800. Upscaling with non-rounded numbers causes more distortion in your final image than does downscaling with non-rounded numbers, so Apple figured since it always wants to run the display at 2880x1800, it might as well upscale with rounded numbers and then downscale with the non-rounded numbers to achieve the best final solution.

With screen real estates of less than 1440x900, it'll upscale as much as possible with rounded numbers and do the rest with non-rounded numbers to hit the 2880x1800 again. I hope this helps, I tried to present it as accurate as I could in simple terms.

That is a very good explanation, thank you very much.

Do you know if there are any utilities that would be able to run the display at 1920X1200 with the "1.5x" multiplier to decrease stress on the GPU?

It makes sense that it would not quite look as clean and crisp as full retina, but it would still make for a higher than average pixel density. And if GPU performance is increased enough, it may be worth it for me in certain situations.

 

[iPastor]

Lusted, Bought, Used, Returned

I saw, I lusted, I bought, I used, I returned, I got a slightly used 17" MacBook Pro.

That's it in a nutshell. I bought the Retina MBP the day it hit the local Apple Store. I got it home, and liked the form-factor, but I wasn't blown away like most of the reviews. it was nice, but wasn't overwhelming.

I wanted to love it, but could not. My frustrations were no ethernet port (yes, the dongle, but why?), new MagSafe (which seems flimsier than the one previously), the 1440x900 res (yes, I know the pixels are quadrupled but it's still the same screen size of the previous 15" and 1920x1200 is too small on a 15"), and lastly the various programs that were not ready for Retina, primarily the iWork Suite which I use daily. So, I returned it.

I got a late-2011 17"MacBook Pro spec'd out, with 16GB RAM and anti-glare screen. I love it. The screen is amazing, and while not retina-display perfect, it's pretty darn close. I dropped a SSD in it and it's just as fast as the Retina MBP with a whole lot more screen real estate. Best part? I paid $1700 from a guy in a hurry to offload so he could buy his new computer, and paid $160 for the 256GB SSD. $1,860 invested and worth every penny.

 

[SpyderBite]

Hmm... This is a little bit frustrating. I NEED a laptop for college this year

Unless you're studying rocket science.. literally.. I'm not concerned with your need for a new laptop. And if you are studying rocket science. Quit. Because your project either doesn't merit the amount necessary for a new notebook computer upgrade or you're an undergrad who doesn't need a $2200 computer anyways.

 

[terraphantm]

i don't care if someone WANTS the RMBP. i'm talking about people trying to justify needing an RMBP for college. want and need are the not the same thing, last time i checked.

near $3k just to 'read' better on a laptop that i've never seen anyone complain about before is the second stupidest thing i've read today.

A rMBP is a want, but a laptop is basically a need these days. If I'm going to be spending a bunch of money on a laptop anyway, I may as well spend a little extra on one with the specs/features that I want. As long as i'm not tapping into any credit cards, what's it matter?

I also personally bought an iPad 3 because it made studying a lot easier for me. I can load any text book, search through the text, make any annotations I need, etc...

 

[pmau]

I saw, I lusted, I bought, I used, I returned, I got a slightly used 17" MacBook Pro.

I still own a 2010 17" which I love.

It's a shame that Apple decided to limit the "Pro's" to 15", even though they didn't sell as well as the smaller ones.

I also rely on ethernet and there has to be some drawback translating ethernet to thunderbolt in some driver... I just like integrated chips that simply do what they are designed for.

"XXX over Thunderbolt" is not really what I prefer.

 

[doelcm82]

This is just a prototype, in my opinion. A market research.
Will it be accepted? How far can we push our view of hardware design?
How much unmodifiable hardware will be accepted?

It's just a prototype. Like the iPad is just a big iPhone (without the phone).

Like the non-Retina MBP is just an MBP without the high resolution display and the slim case, which it needs to hold the inefficient mechanical optical disk unit.

 

[2IS]

It is, but there are many operations (I assume) that currently have to use the CPU. As I understand, this is particularly an issue on facbook.

"Facebook is still a challenge because of the mixture of CPU decoded images and a standard web page, but the experience is a bit better. Repeating the same test as above I measured anywhere from 20 - 30 fps while scrolling through Facebook on ML’s Safari."

I understand that it is not entirely off loaded onto the GPU. Only point I was trying to make is that if safari is indeed GPU accelerated (and it appears that it is) the scrolling issue is not necessarily one of being totally dependant on the CPU as was suggested by the person I quoted.

 

[pmau]

It's just a prototype. Like the iPad is just a big iPhone (without the phone).

Like the non-Retina MBP is just an MBP without the high resolution display and the slim case, which it needs to hold the inefficient mechanical optical disk unit.

I honestly think you got me wrong.

I'm not arguing against the MacBook Pro Retina and its new design.
Surely the whole MacBook line will be switched once it's cheaper to produce.

The iPad 1 was also a prototype in a way that Apple needed to figure out how to produce it and how they would target it.

EDIT:

And I stand by my statement that Apple is testing how acceptable their new policy is regarding upgrades and repair. There's no technical reason to glue the battery to the casing or use a non-standard SSD connector or soldered RAM...

I think that the MBP will evolve just like the iPad does. I'm just arguing that people are in fact buying the first prototype. Which they can, but I certainly will not ....

 

[Mr. Gates]

Reminds me of this comic panel.

 

[Mal]

So Apple released tech that wasn't ready yet. Awesome.

If you want to be on the bleeding edge, you accept the growing pains.

jW