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synp said:
Not exactly. By licensing Mac OS X to, say, Dell, Apple can allow the consumer to buy the Mac that Apple can't make a profit on. I mean a beige box with mediocre parts and a 2.4 GHz P4 and 500 MB of DDR memory.

This kind of machine is a very good seller, because it can do everything most people need. Such a machine would even run Aperture and Photoshop well. Apple doesn't make it because it can't make a profit on it. Instead it sells novelty items like the iMac and mini. Dell can and does make a profit on such machines.
So a sucky Dell is a good buy but the mini and the iMac are novelties?:rolleyes: And "most people" are gonna shell out for Aperture (which won't run on less than a gig of RAM) and/or Photoshop (which I wouldn't say runs "well" on only a half gig of RAM)?

I don't think Dell doesn't make a profit on it's crappy, $499 barebones systems. I think they make a profit when people upgrade the crappy, $499 barebones systems by 2 or 300 dollars.

Apple could tell Dell what kind of machines it can sell, and it can dictate some kind of differentiator from other Dell products such as color.
How much money do you think would Apple have to charge Dell for an OS X license in order to offset the lost hardware sales to Dell? Keep in mind the fact that Apple's hardware sales, not software sales, keep it in business. Speaking of software, the Dell would most likely come w/iLife so besides possible paid upgrades in the future how would Apple earn revenue from Joe Sixpack who just purchased a MacDell?


Lethal
 
Apple wouldn't lose sales to Dell. The sales which would go to Dell with Mac OS X are already lost: i.e. current windows users and Mac users who have a windows PC as a second computer. In the end having OSX as a viable operating system will allow Apple proper to sell more computers.
 
BenRoethig said:
Apple wouldn't lose sales to Dell. The sales which would go to Dell with Mac OS X are already lost: i.e. current windows users and Mac users who have a windows PC as a second computer.
Your logic is flawed because you are making an unlike comparison (windows machines vs mac machines). If I say, "I want to have Windows" I'm not a potential Apple customer just like if I say, "I want to have OS X" I'm not a potential Dell customer. But if Dell starts selling computers w/OS X, and I want a computer w/OS X, I have a choice between buying from Apple or buying a Dell.

If Dell offered hardware comparable to the Mac Mini or iMac but for, let's say, 10% less you don't think that people looking for a new Mac might purchase from Dell rather than Apple?

For another hypothetical example let's look at the education market. Apple can't match Dell as far price-per-machine is concerned, but Apple can stress the security of OS X which means lower long term IT costs. But what happens if Dell now offers OS X machines. Schools buying from Dell get the lower price-per-machine as well as the lower long term IT costs OS X can provide. What is the incentive to buy from Apple?

As long as Apple is a hardware company I don't see them allowing other companies to create clones that will cannibalize their hardware sales.


Lethal
 
PPC Clones

Now would be a perfect time to license a PPC clone maker. They could sell cheap PCs and not go after Apples market. Apple fans would want the faster intel chips. The clones were meant to expand market share, instead all the clone makers were going after Apple's customers.
 
Psychic Shopper said:
Now would be a perfect time to license a PPC clone maker. They could sell cheap PCs and not go after Apples market. Apple fans would want the faster intel chips. The clones were meant to expand market share, instead all the clone makers were going after Apple's customers.
Actually the PPC clones didn't die when Windows and the Mac OS were pulled from their OS option list.

They are now Linux PPCs (G3/G4), while the G5 should have been the next step in their evolution, very few companies are selling G5 computer boards, maybe only 1 3rd party company. Darned thing is too complex.

Basically the development of their chipsets slowed down when some of the companies exited the PPC chipset market after signing PPC970 agreements, don't think any real PPC970 3rd party Northbridges have hit the market.

And IBM would be quite willing to help design a UH3/PPC970 computer for anybody at their silly rates -- not cheap.
 
Abercrombieboy said:
If I have learned anything this past year when it comes to Apple, never say never!
Perhaps we shoudl say then "We hope Apple will never become a software only company and it is their own intention to remain within the hardware business."

To answer the previous point, Windows will load onto a MacIntel, (acording to apple unofficially), but Mac OS will not go onto a biege box PC. This means anyone who buys a MacIntel and needs to run a particular application in Windsows, they can install it as a dual boot. Anyone unsure whether to buy a PC or Mac will now be easier to persuade in the Mac's direction.
 
This is what I don't understand

Everyone almost without exception wants not to see clones. The reason they give is that it will destroy Apple's hardware business, or it will allow other people to buy products they don't want to buy themselves.

Well, the second argument is just silly. They, clones, may strike you as ugly, or not what you want, but if nothing was ever sold someone didn't like the look of, or someone didn't want to buy, the world would be a poorer place. If you don't want them, well, they are not being made for you, but you are not the only customers in the world. These feelings are simply irrelevant from a business strategy point of view.

The first argument is often made by people who also feel that Apple hardware is far better than the trashy stuff made by Dell, has better components, and is about the same price or even cheaper. And they feel that the integration of having the OS and the hardware under the control of one supplier improves the user experience.

If all this is true, why should selling the OS separately destroy the hardware business? Surely, people will carry on buying all this wonderful hardware at the same or lower prices? Dell will be unable to undercut Apple. In addition, the integrated experience from buying genuine Apple stuff will still be far better, and so people will carry on buying into that too. Especially as there will be no premium involved.

It is really an incomprehensible argument when you think about it. People seem to be arguing that product A is better and cheaper than product B, but if we allow product B to be sold, everyone will buy it, and no-one will buy B. It is like arguing that Fords are better and cheaper than Hondas, but if we allow Honda to open a dealership in our town, no-one will buy Fords any more. It doesn't make any sense.

There are only two ways out of this. One is to agree that the hardware is not better, or not better enough. The other is to agree that the integrated experience is not better, or not better enough.

I am a long term Apple user from way back, from before System 6 in fact, so I am not a knocker. I just would like people to make logical and consistent arguments when they think about this issue. If they do, they will be obliged to a very uncomfortable conclusion. The hardware is not different. The disks, memory, processors etc are all the same. The experience is better, but not because of integration, but because the OS is better. The hardware costs are and always have been uncompetitive. So, the company needs to change, get the costs out, and sell the hell out of the software. As one poster has said, it needs to have two divisions, a hardware business unit, and a software business unit.

The two are being pulled in different directions. The hardware people need to make stuff that any OS runs on, because that's how they maximize sales and returns. And they need to be cost competitive. The OS people need to sell as many copies as possible, and that means to any hardware anyone wants to use, not just the in-house hardware. Yes, some people want the integrated experience, whatever that is, but they are not the only market a company should sell to. Look after us, but not to the exclusion of everyone else. Because if you do, you will end up too small to be able to look after us, in the end.
 
Thersites said:
Everyone almost without exception wants not to see clones. The reason they give is that it will destroy Apple's hardware business, or it will allow other people to buy products they don't want to buy themselves.

Well, the second argument is just silly. They, clones, may strike you as ugly, or not what you want, but if nothing was ever sold someone didn't like the look of, or someone didn't want to buy, the world would be a poorer place. If you don't want them, well, they are not being made for you, but you are not the only customers in the world. These feelings are simply irrelevant from a business strategy point of view.

The first argument is often made by people who also feel that Apple hardware is far better than the trashy stuff made by Dell, has better components, and is about the same price or even cheaper. And they feel that the integration of having the OS and the hardware under the control of one supplier improves the user experience.

If all this is true, why should selling the OS separately destroy the hardware business? Surely, people will carry on buying all this wonderful hardware at the same or lower prices? Dell will be unable to undercut Apple. In addition, the integrated experience from buying genuine Apple stuff will still be far better, and so people will carry on buying into that too. Especially as there will be no premium involved.

It is really an incomprehensible argument when you think about it. People seem to be arguing that product A is better and cheaper than product B, but if we allow product B to be sold, everyone will buy it, and no-one will buy B. It is like arguing that Fords are better and cheaper than Hondas, but if we allow Honda to open a dealership in our town, no-one will buy Fords any more. It doesn't make any sense.

There are only two ways out of this. One is to agree that the hardware is not better, or not better enough. The other is to agree that the integrated experience is not better, or not better enough.

I am a long term Apple user from way back, from before System 6 in fact, so I am not a knocker. I just would like people to make logical and consistent arguments when they think about this issue. If they do, they will be obliged to a very uncomfortable conclusion. The hardware is not different. The disks, memory, processors etc are all the same. The experience is better, but not because of integration, but because the OS is better. The hardware costs are and always have been uncompetitive. So, the company needs to change, get the costs out, and sell the hell out of the software. As one poster has said, it needs to have two divisions, a hardware business unit, and a software business unit.

The two are being pulled in different directions. The hardware people need to make stuff that any OS runs on, because that's how they maximize sales and returns. And they need to be cost competitive. The OS people need to sell as many copies as possible, and that means to any hardware anyone wants to use, not just the in-house hardware. Yes, some people want the integrated experience, whatever that is, but they are not the only market a company should sell to. Look after us, but not to the exclusion of everyone else. Because if you do, you will end up too small to be able to look after us, in the end.

Three actually. Hardware, software, and digital lifestyle devices. Apple's prices are competitive when you look at similar hardware. They just sell hardware that is both different and upscale. There is nothing in the Apple world that you can directly compare to the $400 Celeron PC . Apple can't sell it. It would hurt their image that their Nordstrom of computer makers.
 
Will_reed said:
In my opinion allowing mac clones will do nothing more than nearly destroy apples hardware development. With cheap machines available from say dell alot less people will purchase a genuine macintosh. For someone like me who loves apples hardware I don't want to see this happen.

those pics don't really prove much the shot is too blurry to see the specs of the machine and if you think about it there could just be a mac mini hiding out of camera that the screen is plugged into.
I made a pretty convincing pic of my own of my asus laptop. I just took a screen shot off my mac in the correct resolution and put it in slideshow mode. A video would be better.

Hey Will, I love skeptics and skepticism; however, check this out:

http://media.putfile.com/Tigerx86

Not convinced yet?
 
dotn forget one thing

PIRACY
apple a little choice but to fionding a way to offer osx to every platform or suffur the consequance piracy until no more .....


and dont start with the respect the laws blablabla ......
right now there a ton of osx on x86 machine and there nothing to stop them .....
so apple wanna conquer market apple wanna get big and flush winshit easy get out there and take the marklet by storm.

Or stay at 6% and die there ......

Or get pirated until anyways everybody have a hack version of mac osx on there box period ..... and at 149$ can$ who the hell will pirate a os at 149$

and for each os sell there 149$ more in apple pucket its better that nothing
 
lopresmb said:
I tend to agree with you, Steve was the one to kill to original program to begin with. Why allow yourself to relive a painful part of your history that didn't work beforehand.

If Apple were to allow Intel OSX clones, it would be a very different proposition to the old PowerPC clones.

By allowing PPC clones, Apple simply became a smaller fish in a very small pool. People who would have bought Macs anyway bought cheaper clones instead, so instead of extra revenue Apple simply got a smaller piece of the pie.

Licensing OSX on Intel is very different, it means Apple will be a small fish in a very, very big pool. They might be getting a smaller slice (i.e. profit margins on software only, as opposed to software & hardware), but their potential customer base is enormous.

What would be very interesting to know - how profit does Microsoft make from off-the-shelf sales of Windows, versus how much from licensees such as Dell. Assuming the bulk of the profits comes from licensees, then that would determine whether Apple needs a big name (such as Dell, HP or whoever) to sign up, or offer off-the-shelf sales of OSX for Intel.
 
Huh?

shamino said:
Is Microsoft's image hurt by the fact that Windows becomes very unstable when run in a virtual machine on Linux boxes? Hardly.
I have lots of Windows virtual machines running on Linux hosts, and stability (either of the Windows VM or the Linux host) is never an issue.

Can you explain this claim?
 
p0intblank said:
No, no, and NO! I, like many other Mac users, do not want to see this happen. Mac OS X is just fine on Apple hardware and only Apple hardware. Like Josh is saying, Mac sales are getting better by the day and don't show any signs of slowing down. Just leave it how it is... please.


Or you (and the other mac users that want it) could continue to buy the machines made by Apple and still allow others to have their choice.

Hmmmm.... choice.... good!
 
Sedulous said:
Does anyone here picture Apple as a software company only?

Why would they have to be a software only company.

During the last round with cloes they continued to produce the hardware.

I see them as contiuing to do both. The only thing that changes is that some consumers are given more choice.

As a consumer this is a good thing. If Apple is really making the best hardware then they will win that battle.

They already make the best OS.... let it be free!
 
Apple patents?

MacSlut said:
There are some interesting Apple patents in regards to the possibility of being able to run multiple OSs at the same time, which would totally rock.
VT/Pacifica would allow Windows and OSX to run simultaneously at the hardware level - that is, if Apple decides to make it possible....

The Intel hardware will be able to do it, but Apple has to make it legal.
 
Why do people persist in thinking of Apple and Dell as hardware MANUFACTURERS? They are hardware designers and marketers, but neither company has been a manufacturer in the pure sense of the term for a long time.

Both Apple and Dell contract out their designs to low-cost and agile contract manufacturing companies in Taiwan, China, and other countries to build their machines for them (as do Hewlett-Packard and the rest. IBM is just the first company to publicly acknowledge the practice by selling their entire PC business to Lenovo, their manufacturing contractor in China). Companies that 'Manufacture' in North America are doing nothing more than assembling off-the-shelf parts from offshore suppliers.

Your Powerbook likely came out of the same factory as that Dell Inspiron, on side by side assembly lines. So does your 24" Cinema display.

Why is this significant? Because Apple originally licensed clone makers when they themselves were incapable of building a machine cheaply (that is, out of standard PC cases, IDE hard drives and optical drives, standard power supplies and keyboards). Remember that the PowerMac 8500 had only SCSI storage interfaces, proprietary serial port, proprietary keyboard and mouse port, a case and power supply incompatible with everything else in the world that was a bear to service, and cost a bomb. At the same time, the UMAX J700 machine used exactly the same chassis as a number of Dell models of the day, had more internal expandability and was $1000 less. That's why clone Macs were competitive. (And incidentally why Motorola Starmax machines had such p!$$-poor quality control).

Today, Apple has the overseas contractors, the sales volume, and the industry standards. So Apple themselves can have machines built every bit as cheap as any clone maker. Apple chooses to put more money into their cases and cosmetics to maintain their premium image (and premium profit margins).

Therefore, the only marginal advantages a clone maker would conceiveably have are:
1) Reduce price through reducing the cost (and quality) of cases, keyboards, and mice
2) Reach markets through mass distribution that Apple presently cannot sell to in volume.

#1 is not desirable to Apple.

It's hard to believe #2 that there is a market that isn't accessible to Apple's sales and marketing juggernaut. The only 2 I can think of are Wal-Mart/Costco low end mass retail, and overseas markets like China or India, although I know nothing about the reality of Apple's overseas success there. In both instances that is extremely low-margin business, which Apple has traditionally avoided like the plague.

Thanks
Trevor
CanadaRAM.com
 
Clones

Apple has trouble enough keeping up with hardware issues as it is on their own hardware. See the host of hardware fixes in 10.4.3. If Apple had to support a clone, they lose the hardware profit and gain a huge support cost, for little or no extra return.

Microsoft has a lot more people working on Windows than Apple does on OS X, I suspect. Apple will have issues enough getting everything working on Intel branded motherboards certified to run OS X. Getting it working on all the second and third tier motherboards, with the variety of chipsets and BIOS's? And keeping OS X from being pirated (copied, if you prefer), as well? I don't think they could even do it, let alone make a decent profit at it. Just an opinion...
 
Licensing OS X? Only if hardware sales tank first....

It seems like somebody writes an article/opinion piece on Apple and the possibility of licensing out OS X every few months. Must be a staple item for tech. writers when they're thin on new material?

What I see is this: Apple would be foolish to license out OS X *unless* the transition to Intel-based Macs turns out to be a total flop. (And this *could* be the case, if it turns out it's too easy for people to hack OS X so it's fully functional on non Apple-branded hardware AND Apple's new hardware doesn't appeal to the masses.) In that scenario, Apple could easily "bail themselves out" by licensing OS X to companies like Dell, and instantly transitioning themselves to a software company instead of a hardware company. (Well, they'd still have iPods to sell - but not Macs.)

But I think that's an unlikely scenario, given Apple's proven ability to deliver hardware that people desire. Their biggest mistake would probably be overpricing the machines. If they keep the systems priced reasonably (and by that, I mean high enough so you feel like you got something of "premium quality" - yet not so high that nobody can figure out why it makes any sense to buy over an HP/Compaq, Gateway or Dell PC) - they should do fine.

There's a certain appeal to the idea of a machine that's capable of running BOTH Windows AND OS X at the same time, and doing so at native speeds in both cases. But Apple would be wise not to over-estimate the "value" of this, since as nice as OS X is, people are usually more concerned with the software applications they use. An awful lot of stuff people spend most of their time using on Macs is also available for Windows (all the Adobe products, for example!). Most cases where it's not are relatively "niche" markets, like users needing the power of "Final Cut Pro" for pro video editing. You don't want to become a business that can only sell a new computer to those "niche" people.


AoWolf said:
I doubt it apple makes most of its money of hardware. Clones would take away the seamless integration we mac user enjoy.
 
SiliconAddict said:
beauty smeauty.....When I can save $500 on a superior Dell monitor that has the same bloody display in it who gives a crap.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that people who shop at Walmart have. Sometimes it isn't just about the deal, but sometimes people will buy a product based on the fact that they want to support a company, or sometimes not support a company.
 
j.b. said:
This is exactly the kind of attitude that people who shop at Walmart have. Sometimes it isn't just about the deal, but sometimes people will buy a product based on the fact that they want to support a company, or sometimes not support a company.
And K-Mart
 
j.b. said:
This is exactly the kind of attitude that people who shop at Walmart have. Sometimes it isn't just about the deal, but sometimes people will buy a product based on the fact that they want to support a company, or sometimes not support a company.

This is snobbery. Apple 20" Display is a lot of money and certainly not the best quality by any means.

... and what is wrong with choosing a superior monitor over an Apple product?

Its not food or a sub $100 product, this is a $1000 ( Canadian ) product - a slight difference... your labelling is quite unfair in this instance.
 
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