Returning it...

[urkel]

I am tired of the excuse it's a new product. It will get fixed. Whatever happened to the Apple that put more time into quality control? They are slacking. Same thing with the watch. Release it. And hope you can work the kinks out later. You normally don't see that from Apple though.

It's kinda sad when you look at "who" Apple is now.

Jony Ive cares about design and nothing else
Tim Cook cares about profits and nothing else
Steve Jobs cared about the experience

But now with Jobs gone then we've seen in the last few products that the Apple "experience" is an afterthought.

 

[TrueBlou]

Well, at least it didn't drop any functionality that the previous iPhones had, did it?

Well, you say that, they probably had a better one behind closed doors

 

[chiwaw]

It's quite fascinating to see how many people have zero memories of how terrible the original iPhone and iPad were. The original iPhone, especially, was probably the most crippled and initially useless device Apple have ever released under Jobs. And yet it eventually became an awesome product.

 

[Rigby]

It's quite fascinating to see how many people have zero memories of how terrible the original iPhone and iPad were. The original iPhone, especially, was probably the most crippled and initially useless device Apple have ever released under Jobs. And yet it eventually became an awesome product.

You are making the mistake of comparing the iPhone from 8 years ago to today's market. Back then, it wasn't crippled at all, but rather a huge step forward in UI and functionality compared to the other phones at the time. The ATV4 is nowhere near that. It's the 3rd iteration of the same product, it doesn't do anything that some of the competitors don't do too, and in some regards it's even a step down from the previous generation.

 

[TrueBlou]

You are making the mistake of comparing the iPhone from 8 years ago to today's market. Back then, it wasn't crippled at all, but rather a huge step forward in UI and functionality compared to the other phones at the time. The ATV4 is nowhere near that. It's the 3rd iteration of the same product, and in some regards even a step down from the previous generation.

It's only a 3rd iteration in a loose sense. That's like saying the Apple TV 2 wasn't much different from the Apple TV 1 because they shared an interface to begin with.

The foundation that the new Apple TV is built on is different, TvOS is a new, much more powerful platform than that which existed previously. Which is why no software from the old device works on the new one. It's back to the drawing board for everyone.

I'm not defending the lack of some features that really should have been there at launch. But as far as Apple TV 4 is concerned it's a whole new ball game compared to all three of the previous models.

It's very much the iPhone 3G of the Apple TV world.

 

[Rigby]

It's only a 3rd iteration in a loose sense. That's like saying the Apple TV 2 wasn't much different from the Apple TV 1 because they shared an interface to begin with.

The difference between ATV2 and 1 was much bigger than the one between 4 and 2/3.

The foundation that the new Apple TV is built on is different, TvOS is a new, much more powerful platform than that which existed previously.

Both tvOS and the previous Apple TV OS are using the same foundation (they are both branched off of iOS). The hardware is substantially more powerful, but that is mostly due to the fact that the ATV3 was getting very long in the tooth and lagging behind the competition. Unfortunately it's still behind in some regards though (such as support for 4K).

I'm not defending the lack of some features that really should have been there at launch. But as far as Apple TV 4 is concerned it's a whole new ball game compared to all three of the previous models.

Well, we have to agree to disagree. In my mind the ATV4 is a minor evolutionary update that belatedly adds some features that the competition has had for a while already (primarily the app store).

 

[TrueBlou]

The difference between ATV2 and 1 was much bigger than the one between 4 and 2/3.

Yes in the sense that they switched to an iOS derived device for the first time. But to begin with, certainly not feature wise. It wasn't until a year later when they retired the Front Row interface that the changes really began to mount up.

Both tvOS and the previous Apple TV OS are using the same foundation (they are both branched off of iOS).

They are, but again, huge difference in scope. The previous generations were crippled with the lack of an AppStore, limiting the Apple TV software to only that which Apple wanted to add.

Well, we have to agree to disagree. In my mind the ATV4 is a minor evolutionary update that belatedly adds some features that the competition has had for a while already (primarily the app store).
Unfortunately it's still behind in some regards though (such as support for 4K).

Apple are catering to the mass market with this iteration, I'm not getting into the whole 4K debate but there's no arguing that the market for 4K is a tiny fraction of the market for 1080p. By the time those numbers begin to swing around there will definitely be 4K on an Apple TV box, this isn't a decision Apple has made on a whim, they have far more resources for deciding such things than you, I and probably most companies on the planet. After all the Apple TV 4 can, definitely, without doubt play back 4K content (and before you ask, yes I've tried,) if they felt they had to include it, they could have.

The AppStore is their big focus with this update and I'm sorry but if you consider the possibility for any kind of media, gaming, music or any other kind of software a minor update over the closed system we had before, then no, you're really not the target market.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Really? iPhone 1 at launch, no copy and paste, no mms messages, no AppStore or sdk. Apple TV 1 at launch, completely reliant on a host computer running iTunes, unable to play music and return to the home screen, or anywhere else without the music stopping. Podcats support horribly implemented, no third-party content. To name just a few of the glaring omissions and snafus since 2007, the list goes on. The last, near perfect at launch, new product Apple put out was likely the original iPod in 2001.

It's not uncommon, and hasn't been for quite some time, for Apple to put out a new product (and in many ways the Apple TV 4 is a new product for Apple, carrying nothing but the shape from the previous two generations) and provide only the essentials, or the essentials as Apple see it, then continue to refine and improve the product throughout it's life.

There's plenty of things I want to see improved on the Apple TV and I'm sure most of them will be in time. But the days when Apple put a new product into a consumers hands that was damn near perfect are long gone. And thanks to the complexity and scope of the devices, the software, the content deals and back room negotiations and the consumer expectation among other things. They aren't coming back.

You are really picking odd examples here. Those products you mentioned are SO far in the past and neither had an obvious predecessor or platform it was similar to - it's really not a relevant comparison.

Almost all of the ATV4 complaints are about missing features & Apps that were already in ATV3/2 and/or iOS (which tvOS shares exceptionally high similarity with).

ATV4 is only a new platform in that it's enabling things for the future, but that shouldn't have come at this large amount of expense in terms of current features and expectations.

They know this too - The product purposely shipped now just for the highly lucrative holiday shopping windows.

Everyone who keeps saying "it's all new" and "they'll get to it" - You're all omitting a huge data point - that Apple has been working on this for years. It's way too unpolished as a release for something that's been getting that amount of time and work put into it.

 

[TrueBlou]

You are really picking odd examples here. Those products you mentioned are SO far in the past and neither had an obvious predecessor or platform it was similar to - it's really not a relevant comparison.

Almost all of the ATV4 complaints are about features missing that were already in ATV3/2 and/or iOS (which tvOS shares exceptionally high similarity with).

ATV4 is only a new platform in that it's enabling things for the future, but that shouldn't have come at this large amount of expense in terms of current features and expectations.

They know this too - The product purposely shipped now just for the highly lucrative holiday shopping windows.

Granted, but that reply was to a post regarding how Apple used to be, back in the day when we got a properly finished product not a comparison of the prior Apple TV devices. I was merely highlighting the vast difference in the Apple of back then to the Apple of today. After all bearing more than a passing resemblance to iOS has already proven that a shipping product doesn't guarantee an entirely finished one (Apple Watch.)

Although, as you brought it up, it may well be they shoved the ATV out of the door for the holiday season, it would certainly be a possibility and one that makes a degree of sense. But it would also be a possibility that suggests they were unable to put out of the door what they had planned for and worked on for nigh on four years.

As you say, TvOS is very much iOS 9, so all they were doing was making a skin and a few new api's. That should be childs play to a company like Apple. The hardware is an iPhone 6 in a different box, so nothing new or difficult there. They didn't even waste any time on a redesign of the outer casing. None of this bar the Siri remote (which although new doesn't do anything they haven't borrowed from an iPhone) is new at all.

A company like Apple, who manage to put out new iPhones and iPads with completely new technologies every year. And new versions of iOS, which sometimes offer a radical departure from it's predecessor every year. Along with all of their other products they rejig every year. Couldn't put an iPhone 6 inside a box in 4 years? That's not an easy pill to swallow. So the possibility exists, however horrible it may be to consider, that the product they shipped is pretty much the one they wanted to ship.

 

[turbineseaplane]

So the possibility exists, however horrible it may be to consider, that the product they shipped is pretty much the one they wanted to ship.

I totally agree - And it's depressing that "this" is what they likely wanted. Especially things like no user profiles, which makes all the sense in the world for a TV device, especially now with Apps up there.

(This, incidentally, shows JUST how close tvOS and iOS really are - no support for it in either, thus a huge fundamental undertaking to re-think how to manage that)

The holiday shopping thing is also valid for sure. If there were any other things they did want to do last second, ultimately the calendar came creeping up and they likely said "f - it, just ship it & push anything to ATV5"

 

[TrueBlou]

I totally agree - And it's depressing that "this" is what they likely wanted.

But the holiday shopping thing is still valid for sure. If there were any other things they did want to do last second, ultimately the calendar came creeping up and they likely said "f - it, just ship it & push anything to ATV5"

Oh there's no doubt things didn't make the cut due to time constraints. That's the case with any product, I just don't think, hardware wise anyway, they have made any sacrifices. The software, well, that's another thing altogether. But thankfully unlike hardware, that's fixable.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Oh there's no doubt things didn't make the cut due to time constraints. That's the case with any product, I just don't think, hardware wise anyway, they have made any sacrifices. The software, well, that's another thing altogether. But thankfully unlike hardware, that's fixable.

Remember though - Apple doesn't do big new software features with updates, they package software features with new hardware to sell new devices.

A superb recent example of that is "live photos" - A jailbreak tweak makes that work like a dream on iPhone 5s & 6 & iPads (I have all in house and can attest to this).

But what does Apple do?
They artificially constrain software features simply to have a compelling hardware upgrade cycle.

This is why I keep telling people, if you love the ATV4 today - great. Keep it and enjoy! Do not buy it counting on big sweeping software changes. It's just not how Apple rolls of late.

On the same note, I expect my ATV3's to be just like they are, and that's it, moving forward. Maybe a bone thrown for Apple Music, but that probably would have already happened if it was going to.

 

[TrueBlou]

Remember though - Apple doesn't do big new software features with updates, they package software features with new hardware to sell new devices.

A superb recent example of that is "live photos" - A jailbreak tweak makes that work like a dream on iPhone 5s & 6 & iPads (I have all in house and can attest to this).

But what does Apple do?
They artificially constrain software features simply to have a compelling hardware upgrade cycle.

This is why I keep telling people, if you love the ATV4 today - great. Keep it and enjoy! Do not buy it counting on big sweeping software changes. It's just not how Apple rolls of late.

On the same note, I expect my ATV3's to be just like they are, and that's it, moving forward. Maybe a bone thrown for Apple Music, but that probably would have already happened if it was going to.

No doubt that's been an Apple tactic for a long time, well every manufacturer if we're honest.

But Apple are capable of adding features in software updates, they did for the iPad Air 2 for example. And unlike an iPhone, I don't think the Apple TV will be in a yearly upgrade cycle, so I fully expect a few new features.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I don't think the Apple TV will be in a yearly upgrade cycle,

Uuu... I disagree totally. I think the ATV will be nearly yearly to keep up with the max bang/buck (for Apple) on year old tech & performance & manufacturing economies/cost optimization. What's in the 6s/6s+ I fully expect to be in an ATV refresh next year. Apps/Games will greatly benefit from that.

We shall see.


All of that is moot though people -

Buy the device if it does what you want right now is always my recommendation.

If you buy on "potential" in any tech product, please no complaining later (which folks here are known to do as soon as "new model X" comes out within a year... lol)

 

[Agent2015]

OP:

Phew! That was close! Glad you were able to return your ATV4 in the nick of time.

In the meantime I'll continue to enjoy mine as it surely matures. What a joy to use! The apps are getting more numerous and better everyday, Plex is fantastic, UI pleasing to the eye, Airplay flawless, Siri works as advertised and hey the games are decent considering its price point. But at least you gave it a real spin as opposed to those that are basing their conclusions only on silly forums like these! lol

 

[turbineseaplane]

OP:
UI pleasing to the eye, Airplay flawless

UI: Very much open to interpretation and preference.

AirPlay: I wish it had been flawless for me. But more importantly, it's essentially the same as ATV3 in terms of quality, latency, etc - i.e. no change = why bother if AirPlay is a main use of it, especially if you take it places as many do for AirPlay on the go. Just a data point to consider for many.

 

[TrueBlou]

Uuu... I disagree totally. I think the ATV will be nearly yearly to keep up with the max bang/buck (for Apple) on year old tech & performance & manufacturing economies/cost optimization. What's in the 6s/6s+ I fully expect to be in an ATV refresh next year. Apps/Games will greatly benefit from that.

We shall see.


All of that is moot though people -

Buy the device if it does what you want right now is always my recommendation.

If you buy on "potential" in any tech product, please no complaining later (which folks here are known to do as soon as "new model X" comes out within a year... lol)

Well, as I said in another thread, I do think it's likely to end up yearly. Just not yet, I think this one might be a bit longer to draw in the punters.

But I suppose next year could be ATV 5, drop the 3 and lower the price of the 4.

As for buying on potential, never do, I'm perfectly happy with my Apple TV as it is. I would like to see Siri expanded on but, I don't share your pessimism when it comes to things like that. We already know that's not the case. There's a Siri update in a few months for it to work with Apple Music, or now if you're running the beta and they're opening up the Siri api soon. So I'll be completely satisfied.

 

[turbineseaplane]

But I suppose next year could be ATV 5, drop the 3 and lower the price of the 4.

Bingo!

(emphasis mine)

 

[Agent2015]

UI: Very much open to interpretation and preference.

AirPlay: I wish it had been flawless for me. But more importantly, it's essentially the same as ATV3 in terms of quality, latency, etc - i.e. no change = why bother if AirPlay is a main use of it, especially if you take it places as many do for AirPlay on the go. Just a data point to consider for many.

Indeed everything is subject to interpretation.

Don't know why your AirPlay is so shaky. Could be the ATV but in my case both the ATV3 and the ATV4 have been great with AirPlay. Excellent quality, no latency from a variety of devices ranging from iPhone 5 to iPhone 6, iPads and several Mac minis and MacBooks. I have a background in computer networking which helps me make sure that the wifi and the ethernet sides of the network are optimized for best performance. But as they say, your mileage may vary.

 

[urkel]

The software, well, that's another thing altogether. But thankfully unlike hardware, that's fixable.

But Apple isn't known for "fixing" products we already paid for.

It really does feel like Apple literally pulls entire teams off products once they've been launched. Where's the long overdue granular options for Time Machine? Where's the update for Airport Utility? Where's the oddly missing Reminders list on Apple Watch?

While many Apple products are fixable through an Apple Update, the way most problems get fixed is by buying the next generation product that fixes old problems and introduces new ones. It's the circle of Apple Life.

 

[IndianBird]

But Apple isn't known for "fixing" products we already paid for.

It really does feel like Apple literally pulls entire teams off products once they've been launched. Where's the long overdue granular options for Time Machine? Where's the update for Airport Utility? Where's the oddly missing Reminders list on Apple Watch?

While many Apple products are fixable through an Apple Update, the way most problems get fixed is by buying the next generation product that fixes old problems and introduces new ones. It's the circle of Apple Life.

Wouldn't it just make sense to buy from someone else then if this is an Apple problem?

 

[Agent2015]

But Apple isn't known for "fixing" products we already paid for.

It really does feel like Apple literally pulls entire teams off products once they've been launched. Where's the long overdue granular options for Time Machine? Where's the update for Airport Utility? Where's the oddly missing Reminders list on Apple Watch?

While many Apple products are fixable through an Apple Update, the way most problems get fixed is by buying the next generation product that fixes old problems and introduces new ones. It's the circle of Apple Life.

As IndianBird stated maybe it's time for you to look for greener pastures elsewhere. Good luck with that!

All kidding aside, I have found Apple to be far more responsive in providing "fixes" than any other tech outfit I have ever dealt with. The fact that they bend over backwards to provide current OS updates to thing like iPads and iPhones is symptomatic a firm that cares. For Pete's sake my iPad 2 is running iOS 9.1 just fine thank you very much. It bodes well for those early adopters of the ATV4. I've helped many people migrate via Time Machine numerous times and every time it has worked flawlessly. My migration work over on the Windows side of the world hasn't been nearly as solid. Any chance I get (and personally all I use) I recommend Apple Airport products. Why? Because they just work! My Airport Utility whether on Mavericks, Yosemite or El Capitan simply works...all the time. Sorry can't help you with the Apple Watch...still waiting on the Apple Watch 2!

 

[chiwaw]

But Apple isn't known for "fixing" products we already paid for.

I strongly disagree with that statement as a generalization: Apple is incredibly good at fixing and upgrading many of their products (I would even say more so than most tech companies). On the other hand, some of their products become less of a priority and they mostly ignore them. Like all the tech companies, directing efforts toward some products and less toward others.

What remain to be seen is: where will the Apple TV fall in? Maybe they are serious about it and the ATV4 is just the first step in a long chain of improvements. Maybe it's just a halfhearted try before abandoning the whole thing.

We don't know yet. We'll see!

In the meantime, if the *current* state of the ATV4 doesn'T fill your needs, then why bother? Go with something else, or wait a few months and see what happen?

 

[lsutigerfan1976]

I think. And this is just my opinion, that Apple was better off when it did very little. But did it very well. The problem is it is trying to dip its hand on so many products now. That you have them doing a lot. But the quality is in question. Simply cause they are trying to do so much. If that makes sense . Perhaps they would be better by offering less products. But doing those few products very well.

 

[TrueBlou]

But Apple isn't known for "fixing" products we already paid for.

It really does feel like Apple literally pulls entire teams off products once they've been launched. Where's the long overdue granular options for Time Machine? Where's the update for Airport Utility? Where's the oddly missing Reminders list on Apple Watch?

While many Apple products are fixable through an Apple Update, the way most problems get fixed is by buying the next generation product that fixes old problems and introduces new ones. It's the circle of Apple Life.

It would be easy to pick aspects from any product, from any manufacturer that the end user thinks should be a priority. Time machine and the Airport utility both function. And while I can't speak for anyone else, my TimeMachine has been running 24/7 for over 3 years without so much as a hiccup, fulfilling its purpose of keeping my system backed up. I've not even had to reboot it for any reason. If that's true for even a decent percentage of users, updates aren't going to be high on anyone's list.

Apple have shown time and time again that they are willing to support older hardware and they do so with regular updates.

They also add new features, look at the better multitasking implementation on iPad Air 2 for example, or the improvements to notes, constantly improving maps, the QuickType keyboard on iPad or the Watch OS updates that gradually improve the Apple Watch. And they haven't stopped, they are still developing new OS updates for it.

As much as some would like us to believe that Apple simply forgets about hardware once it's launched, the reality is they support older hardware moe than most manufacturers do.