Right to Repair Advocate on Apple's Program: 'Still Too Many Hoops to Jump Through' to Fix iPhones

Sure. But how many people go back to the dealer to get their engine oil changed?
Changing the oil on a car is like changing the screen protector on a phone, and even Jiffy Lube monkeys screw up oil changes every day. It’s a dumb analogy.


The truth is that working on an iPhone is like working on the car’s ECU. There are some tuners out there that do it, but if you blow your car‘s transmission by running more power, the manufacturer is not going to honor the warranty.
 
Changing the oil on a car is like changing the screen protector on a phone, and even Jiffy Lube monkeys screw up oil changes every day. It’s a dumb analogy.
I didn't create the analogy, sparky, I just responded to it.
The truth is that working on an iPhone is like working on the car’s ECU. There are some tuners out there that do it, but if you blow your car‘s transmission by running more power, the manufacturer is not going to honor the warranty.
"Void the warranty" is a red herring. Nobody who has warranty coverage is going to fix their phone (or their car) in the first place.
 
I didn't create the analogy, sparky, I just responded to it.

"Void the warranty" is a red herring. Nobody who has warranty coverage is going to fix their phone (or their car) in the first place.
Plenty of people run tunes on car ECUs and wind up blowing something up that is not covered under warranty.

Do you know how to fix your car's ECU? Can you just swap an ECU from one car into another?
 
Plenty of people run tunes on car ECUs and wind up blowing something up that is not covered under warranty.
Do you know how to fix your car's ECU? Can you just swap an ECU from one car into another?
I don't even know what an ECU is, and I don't care. All I care is that if something breaks in my car, I can get it repaired at a reasonable price. If it is under warranty, then I'll get the dealer/manufacturer to do it. If it isn't, I want to be sure that I can find a garage who will take and fix it. Right now, since I don't drive a Tesla, I have that choice.

I'm not sure why you're pulling out such a specific type of change anyway. Just like regular computer users don't do major repairs themselves, car owners don't generally do major repairs themselves, either. Right to repair isn't only about you being able to tinker with your hardware, or about you being able to fix your own stuff. It's about being able get stuff fixed in general, in a fair market.

ETA: I realize that there are two different things to unravel here. The Right to Repair vs. the right/ability to upgrade. Tuning the ECU like you describe isn't really a "repair" in the sense of right to repair. It would be more analogous to an upgrade. Damage caused by a third-party or customer upgrade has never been covered under warranty, either in the automotive market or in the computing market.
 
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Plenty of people run tunes on car ECUs and wind up blowing something up that is not covered under warranty.

Of course, just like those who overclock can damage something.

Do you know how to fix your car's ECU? Can you just swap an ECU from one car into another?

Yes and Yes, provided it's the same ECU model.

I'm not sure why you're pulling out such a specific type of change anyway. Just like regular computer users don't do major repairs themselves, car owners don't generally do major repairs themselves, either. Right to repair isn't only about you being able to tinker with your hardware, or about you being able to fix your own stuff. It's about being able get stuff fixed in general, in a fair market.

Exactly. It's to prevent manufacturers from locking in repairs by requiring the use of tools only avaiable to tehm to validate a repair, limiting parts and repair info, etc. I wager 90+% of users never take Apple up on their offer to provide tools and parts.

ETA: I realize that there are two different things to unravel here. The Right to Repair vs. the right/ability to upgrade. Tuning the ECU like you describe isn't really a "repair" in the sense of right to repair. It would be more analogous to an upgrade. Damage caused by a third-party or customer upgrade has never been covered under warranty, either in the automotive market or in the computing market.

Exactly. Tuning an ECU (Engine Control Unit) changes various engine parameters such as fuel air mixture, timing, etc. to get more HP at the risk of damaging something if things get screwed up. Doing it right requires knowldege, skill, a dyno etc. The computer analogy would be overclocking; although it is easier than properly tuning an ECU.
 
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I agree. The RTR comes from the car and PC repair shops. Cars were build with generic parts, and PCs did the same. You have to admit it is convenient for the tinkerers. But today products, especially Apple's, are custom designed with few generic components, making tinkering with the products harder or impossible. I think Apple did the right thing: provide certified tools and parts to do it right.
This is actually a really good take.
 
IIRC, that is only true for goods covered by a directive, for example motor oil is not, IIRC. Are you saying every replacement part has to have a CE stamp? I'm curious what directive covers that.
not the part but the box sold. and most of the times it must be market, and if not with CE markign the nother markings

motor oil are covered by other regulations, you cant sell oil marketed to anything without fulfilling it's requirmetns as well
Even the matching quality definition states they do not have to match the original fitted part quality but can match an economy line from the manufacturer. I'm not sure how that impacts regulations but it seems if a manufacturer makes a more stringent standard for some of its cars you could get parts that are legal but not built to the same standard.
it means the third party part must fulfill minimum safety standards. This doesn't mean it's of highest quality. and in most cases the state have made the minimum standard. That is why you can get a repair with genuine or copies of spare parts in EU and keep all warranties.

Essentially: need to have and nice to have.
I really am curiuos what regulations apply and to what.
close to everything. fro example safety features for cars mandates care for pedestriants, warning noice when reversing etc etc.
It is a commission. Never underestimate the UN's ability to create bureaucracies and jobs.

They have a set of standards for vehicles sold in the EU. So if areas not covered can be decided nationally, how do you ensure you can sell a car anywhere in the EU? It's not a bad as when France required yellow headlights, I presume.
it's not that simple. Eu has universal standards. Meaning, every EU member state must have the same regulation. that's why any car or any product the EU have legislated regulatory guidelines for, that i buy in any part of the union are legal to use and sell anywhere in union.

The single market is the most sacred foundational principle of EU
 
Exactly. Tuning an ECU (Engine Control Unit) changes various engine parameters such as fuel air mixture, timing, etc. to get more HP at the risk of damaging something if things get screwed up. Doing it right requires knowldege, skill, a dyno etc. The computer analogy would be overclocking; although it is easier than properly tuning an ECU.
and you never lose warranty on the whole product as we have legal stipulation mandating 2-year minimum warranty period.it ca nbe more in other juristiction, but the baseline is 6months the manufacturer must prove you are the casue of the damage, 6month-2 year you must prove you aren't the cause of the damage. example overclocking the ECU arent relevatn to you headlights or the chair and airbag etc.
appled tried this with the liquid detectors as grounds for voided warranty, but EU said that's not proof of any damage or grounds for voiding warranty

and when it comes to regulations. Eu have mandated a maximum creditcard fee banks and mastercard/visa can take on purchases.

The following maximum levels for interchange fees
  • for all credit card transactions, 0.3% of the value of the transaction;
  • for all debit card transactions, 0.2% of the value of the transaction. However, for domestic debit card transactions, member states may allow a per-transaction interchange fee of no more than 5 euro cents in combination with the 0.2% cap. They can do this provided that the sum of interchange fees of the payment card scheme does not exceed 0,2% of the annual transaction value of domestic debit card transactions
They have a set of standards for vehicles sold in the EU. So if areas not covered can be decided nationally, how do you ensure you can sell a car anywhere in the EU? It's not a bad as when France required yellow headlights, I presume.
for example, in Sweden it's law to have a daytime running lamp at all times. But in Germany it's just recommended and daytime running lamp and in France it's just for motorcycles.

Same with the law in most EU nations, you didn't need to have rear position lights on, but in sweden you was legaly required. The EU then have the regulation dictating all cars sold in the union must have DSL/position lights installed and the ability to turn it on or off.

But a few years back EU made the regulation that rear positional light do not need to be on during daytime. This normalized the law so that car manufacturers don't need to have a switch for it etc

This is actually a really good take.
i would say it's a bad take. Making things smaller haven't changed the difficulty of repairing things. It's till just as easy to fix a motherboard or phone from 1999 as it is today. The only difference is the availability of schematics, manuals and parts. nobody fixes a chip, they jsut replace it, and when fuses, transistors or a resistor breaks we just need to de-solder that part, replace and troubleshoot. But what's making things even harder is software locks and limits that can make repairs impossible. it's not about it being small.

her eyou can watch a video of a guy doing a complete motherboard swap on an iphone by hand. But for some reason apple want to prevent this. this is what you can do for an same day repair instead of sending it off for a week.
 
No, you cannot walk into the dealer and buy the actual OEM, especially German and Japanese manufacturers.
That's a separate issue. The parts at the dealer counter, or 3rd party store, are exactly what the dealer is going to use if they do the repair.

Most of us just want access to the same parts the Apple store is going go use.
And a useful way to pair them with the device if needed (preferably not needed).

And car companies have the same problems. Needing $1000 tool and subscription to program a box to work with the car.
 
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The "repair" industry is all about charging you near-Apple prices for substandard work using stolen, counterfeit, salvaged, etc. parts and making a killing in the process.

Only because Apple makes that their only option. Lot of shops would offer OE parts, not salvaged, if they could source them.

Even now look at all the parts not being offered. Charge port, frame and back, charging coil, front camera, SIM socket, microphone, etc.
 
What is needed is legislation making sure products are designed with repairs in mind.
Not at all. Most of us don't want to dictate design like that.

Sure I'd like phone screens to be as easy as on my LG G2, or just glass like my Galaxy S3.

No problem with specialized tools or needing skill. Just give us access to parts instead of actively hindering/preventing that.
 
That's a separate issue. The parts at the dealer counter, or 3rd party store, are exactly what the dealer is going to use if they do the repair.

Most of us just want access to the same parts the Apple store is going go use.
And a useful way to pair them with the device if needed (preferably not needed).

Smd car companies have tnw same problems. Needing $1000 tool and subscription to program a box to work with the car.
I can‘t buy an official repair manual for my 2019 MX-5 RF unless I’m a repair shop.

the car analogy isn’t a winning argument
 
I can‘t buy an official repair manual for my 2019 MX-5 RF unless I’m a repair shop.

the car analogy isn’t a winning argument
Looks like you can https://www.mazdaserviceinfo.com/electronic-service
And some dealers will sell you the manuals. Just have to ask around. I'd start with for the ones that sell parts online.
But many OEMs don't print manuals anymore. It's just electronic manuals now.

You can access the same data the shops can. It's may not be cheap but it available.
Since that seems to use PDFs, someone has probably saved the PDFs and you can find them if you look.
That's how I got my Jeep manual because I didn't want to buy access.

Or use a 3rd party site like ALLDATA. A lot of shops do.
Most offer daily/weekly/monthly access at reasonable costs.


Similarly there are multiple tools you can get at various prices for diagnosing problems.
The stuff independent shops use and authorized by the OEM.
Talking with a few shops they usually have 2 or 3 different options because each can do better at some things. Even the official OEM tools/and data can be wrong.
 
Looks like you can https://www.mazdaserviceinfo.com/electronic-service
And some dealers will sell you the manuals. Just have to ask around. I'd start with for the ones that sell parts online.
But many OEMs don't print manuals anymore. It's just electronic manuals now.

You can access the same data the shops can. It's may not be cheap but it available.
Since that seems to use PDFs, someone has probably saved the PDFs and you can find them if you look.
That's how I got my Jeep manual because I didn't want to buy access.

Or use a 3rd party site like ALLDATA. A lot of shops do.
Most offer daily/weekly/monthly access at reasonable costs.


Similarly there are multiple tools you can get at various prices for diagnosing problems.
The stuff independent shops use and authorized by the OEM.
Talking with a few shops they usually have 2 or 3 different options because each can do better at some things. Even the official OEM tools/and data can be wrong.
I can’t buy it. It’s $2250.00 for a one year subscription. Also, Operating System: Windows 7 with SP1 or higher
 
I can’t buy it. It’s $2250.00 for a one year subscription. Also, Operating System: Windows 7 with SP1 or higher
$30 a day, for all Mazda's current tech docs not just one vehicle.
(It's probably PDFs they you could save externally for later reference. Or someone already has and you can get for free)

The point is it's an available option. And if they still print manuals for specific vehicles you can usually find a dealer that will order it for you. Hopefully it's better than Chrysler in the 90s where one vehicle had 2 dozen subsystem manuals.


You can't get similar from Apple for a Macbook at any price.
 
I can’t buy it. It’s $2250.00 for a one year subscription. Also, Operating System: Windows 7 with SP1 or higher
Well you can buy it for a crazy price. You can buy the manual from a dealership or mechanic for a smaller fee. You can purchase OEM parts or even authorized cheaper copies.

The iPhone, iPad, MacBook, Apple Watch etc etc. it doesn’t matter if it’s an apple product from 2008 or 2022. You can’t buy it for any price. You can’t buy 99% of the spare parts for any price.

You can hope a criminal steal it from apple and leak the manuals online, or that someone steels spare parts that fails quality control are sold on the black market. You can hope the manufacturer produces too many parts and illegaly sell them. Or that someone manufactures illegal copies etc etc.

Cheap copies are confiscated at customs to be destroyed. Illegal reselling of OEM parts are also confiscated and destroyed at the border.
 
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