Right to Repair !!!

[davidhunternyc]

While the latest news is about Apple Silicone the elephant in the room is that Apple glues down the battery and hard drive so that the computer can not be fixed when broken. Apple is also making certain chips unavailable to third party repair shops. Apple is tightening the reigns and soon your only option, after your warranty ends, is to buy another $3,000 MacBook Pro. Why isn't the public in an outrage over this? When you buy your computer, you OWN your computer. Like a car, when your computer breaks, we must have the Right to Repair.

 

[Natzoo]

I don't think posting this here will be the best place, I agree with you but the right to repair is a thing of the past. Especially with apple, It just generates more revenue and control of its users, think about the future where apple can use all the potential data for personal gain.

I have to sell my 2018 15" once the keyboard warranty ends because it has failed twice so far and I know it's going to keep failing. Look at error 53, apple bricked phones, and took them a YEAR to reverse it but the damage was done. Tesla blocks your vin if you try to repair your own car, it's just going to get worse in the future and reminds me of the watchdogs game.

 

[Apple_Robert]

iFixit Highlights Apple's Uncertain Right to Repair Stance Through Emails Shared With Judiciary Committee

Apple CEO Tim Cook yesterday testified in front of the U.S. House Judiciary Antitrust Subcommittee where he was questioned on Apple's App Store policies, but Congress also released a series of emails that Apple had submitted as part of the ongoing antitrust investigation. Image via iFixit...

forums.macrumors.com

 

[davidhunternyc]

I don't agree about where I should and should not post. This assault by Apple is so egregious that we should all post anywhere and everywhere until Apple changes its ways. If my posting here is a minor infraction it's a distraction, again, with regard to the elephant in the room, Apple's refusal to allow owners to repair their own laptops. It's that simple. You've been cheated by Apple and you're focused on my post here. It's incredible.

 

[filu_]

It won't comfort you, but the cars also become unrepairable (at least in Europe). At most, the service will offer you the replacement of an electronic module worth half the car. An independent workshop will offer you a replacement for a used module from the aftermarket.

And the European Road Safety Council will recommend even more electronics in the car - for your safety of course ...

Whenever I read such posts, I take a step back in my resolve to supplement the Apple ecosystem with the most essential element - the Mac.

Old Linux user who hates Android

 

[nothingtoseehere]

Will be interesting how things develop. Apple is not immune to public pressure and sometimes decides to give in a little. As it just happened with App store policies, cf.
https://www.macrumors.com/2020/09/11/apple-updates-app-store-review-guidelines/

The Right to Repair movement is not that weak either.

Of course, with Macbook designs, it will take some time to get the direction changed, if that ever happens. Things got worse the last decade - on my 13" early 2015 MBP I easily could change the SSD, and many here around say even if it is glued you can change the battery by yourself. But the iFixit manual for the Macbooks since 2016 sounds abhorrent...

 

[clueless88]

I am not sure what the OP meant by

Like a car, when it breaks, you have a Right to Repair your own device.

In my state I do have the right to have the vehicle serviced at a mechanic other than the dealership, or I can do my own repairs. The vehicle manufacturers do not have to provide individual components of a circuit board, such as those found in an ECU (engine control unit) or OBD (emissions on board diagnostic system), even parts on the electronic displays (like in Teslas, Priuses, etc)--one has to bite the bullet and buy a complete ECU, OBD, display, etc.

Yes it is a pain that companies try to find ways of manufacturing products more economically and efficiently. It's really hard to fathom that in competitive trade markets companies try to reduce costs. One of the downsides of companies streamlining things and making them thinner and lighter and faster is that the products are less user serviceable. For instance, the batteries that are held in place by glue probably do not have a frame that screws can go through and the chassis and case probably do not have any areas were the screws can go through. Also, companies probably do not carry an inventory of components that are used to in the assembly of the products (they are in bins in the factories in China). I do not believe that this is a conspiracy.

The number of us who tinker with these devices are in an incredibly small minority. It mystifies me that most Apple customers (namely the iPhone, and iPad crowd) discard their devices and replace them with new and shiny ones every 1-2 years. I am sure that those folks provide the greatest source of revenue to the company--none of the iphones or ipads were ever designed to be easily repaired, and yet virtually no one complains.

That being said, I am a long time PC/Windows guy and totally get DIY mods, and am fortunate that someone gifted me a dying 2012 MBP which I was able to bring it back to life and make it faster than when it came out of China. Definitely could not have pulled this off with the newer products. Looks like this very well may be my one and only Mac product by choice.

Unfortunately as things move forward newer versions of most items will be less user/3rd party serviceable.

I wonder how much profit that desktop/laptop sales provide to Apple relative to their overall profit/sales? I also wonder what percent of Mac computer owners actually have a desire to open up the back and do any repairs/upgrades or have a 3rd party to the repairs/upgrades?

The right to repair laws for vehicles applies to vehicles during their covered warranty period and allows consumers to
choose their servicing mechanic while not negatively impacting the warranty.

Clearly, the majority of us start repairing our computers when they are out of warranty.

 

[davidhunternyc]

I just want to be clear. I am not an Apple hater. I have only used Apple computer products. I have a 1 year old iPad, an iPhone 7, and a 2010 13" MacBook Pro. Currently I want to upgrade my MacBook Pro. It's 10 years old and I've already fixed it a couple of times. Both fixes were routine and didn't cost me much, however, my computer is started to act up yet again. Apparently, my CPU may be going and it's not worth the cost to fix. According to iFixit and Louis Rossman it's strongly advisable that we do NOT buy current MacBooks. Apple has made their latest MacBooks impossible to fix. Here's the conundrum which many of us are in. We are familiar with macOS. We like macOS. We do not want to switch operating systems. If the Dell XPS 15 9500 used macOS I would purchase the Dell. I am leaning towards getting the Dell anyway and forcing myself to learn Windows. This issue would be solved if Apple came out with a modular, fully fixable, MacBook Pro. There would be no reason for any of us to switch allegiances. Apple's fight against Right to Repair is pure greed.

 

[DEMinSoCAL]

I just want to be clear. I am not an Apple hater. I have only used Apple computer products. I have a 1 year old iPad, an iPhone 7, and a 2010 13" MacBook Pro. Currently I want to upgrade my MacBook Pro. It's 10 years old and I've already fixed it a couple of times. Both fixes were routine and didn't cost me much, however, my computer is started to act up yet again. Apparently, my CPU may be going and it's not worth the cost to fix. According to iFixit and Louis Rossman it's strongly advisable that we do NOT buy current MacBooks. Apple has made their latest MacBooks impossible to fix. Here's the conundrum which many of us are in. We are familiar with macOS. We like macOS. We do not want to switch operating systems. If the Dell XPS 15 9500 used macOS I would purchase the Dell. I am leaning towards getting the Dell anyway and forcing myself to learn Windows. This issue would be solved if Apple came out with a modular, fully fixable, MacBook Pro. There would be no reason for any of us to switch allegiances. Apple's fight against Right to Repair is pure greed.

Dell is starting to follow Apple by soldering RAM and SSD to some of their ultra-thin XPS (and especially the 2-in-1 version) models. The 15" 9500 model you mentioned does have upgradable memory and SSD, but the XPS 13 9300 only has upgradable SSD (memory is soldered).

Dell does publicly post service guides for all their models on the support page. That is nice. And all their PC products are repairable by simply removing back covers and as far as I know, none of the batteries are glued in (that I've read or seen).

With regards to arguments of macOS vs Windows, I use/support both. Neither is hard to master the basics as they both use windows, dialog boxes, menus and docks. Not to mention, it's the apps that you spend most of your time in, not the OS.

Apple isn't going to change so maybe you have to. I agree that being forced to configure a Macbook for what you think you'll need in 5-10 years is ridiculous and to have to pay todays prices for that extra memory and storage instead of being able to buy low now and then get it cheaper later on when you need more space or memory.

 

[davidhunternyc]

“For instance, the batteries that are held in place by glue probably do not have a frame that screws can go through and the chassis and case probably do not have any areas were the screws can go through. Also, companies probably do not carry an inventory of components that are used to in the assembly of the products (they are in bins in the factories in China). I do not believe that this is a conspiracy.”

... but it is a conspiracy. Do you fix MacBooks for a living? Please, watch Louis Rossman’s videos and you’ll clearly see all the ways Apple is making it impossible to fix your own computer. Apple’s defense is laughable.

 

[ApfelKuchen]

This is not so much about a right to repair as it is the ease and cost of repair.

The basic manufacturing/design trade-off here has to do with averages - the average cost of warranty repair for the manufacturer, average long-term reliability/average number of units that will require repair, the average number of end users who perform DIY repair, etc. For the most part, the things that DIYers hate are the things that keep costs down on the manufacturing end. You can call it greed, but if it's greed it has as much to do with the average consumer's interest in price as it has to do with the manufacturer's interest in maintaining a profit margin.

I started repairing electronics (and cars, occasionally) in the early 1970s. Even then, the easy-to-repair equipment was more expensive. Features that aided repairability (socketed vacuum tubes and transistors, easily-opened access panels, numerous connectorized sub-assemblies, etc.) were found in higher-priced gear.

Ironically, a fair number of repairs back then had to do with the use of connectors - oxidation/corrosion, vibration, etc. Loose screws/worn screw threads caused all sorts of problems with mechanical as well as electronics gear. Hand assembly/disassembly of a large number of machine-made subassemblies meant a large inventory of parts on repair shop shelves, a fair amount of workbench space to hold all the parts removed during repair, and a fair amount of time disassembling/reassembling. Yes, the individual parts were cheaper, but the full parts inventory was very expensive.

The trend has always been towards larger sub-assemblies (a single main logic board rather than a mother board with a half-dozen daughter boards), just as it has gone from individual vacuum tubes and transistors to SOCs with millions (billions?) of circuit elements. Why have a main logic board with hundreds of wave-soldered components and a couple of socketed chips (CPU, GPU)? That had nothing to do with repairs - one chip is no more likely to fail than any other. It had to do with facilitating manufacture - one motherboard capable of accommodating a range of options.

CPU upgrades were not part of the manufacturer's intent (they wanted you to buy a new unit when the CPU was outdated just as much then as they want it today), it was a byproduct of ease-of-manufacture at a time when there were thousands of PC "manufacturers" slapping together a pile of OEM parts who didn't want to replace their inventories of motherboards every time Intel brought out a new CPU.

What was true of CPUs is also true of SSD/Flash storage. The chance that a spinning HDD would need repair during the life of the computer was pretty high. The chances that SSD/Flash would fail before the rest of the main logic board became outdated/obsolete is pretty small. Again, it's not about facilitating upgrades, it's about manufacturing costs and the likelihood of component failure.

But if you are the type that likes to do it yourself (and I'm among them), yeah, it can suck. But the basic fact is, since I have no interest in upgrading most of my gear, the only time I'd need to open it is if something fails. Those failures come very few and far between. The very things that make my gear difficult to repair also make it far less likely to require repair.

As to the "right to repair?" This has to do with warranty terms, availability of parts, the freedom to choose a repair shop, and the like. It's not common for government to tell industry that their products must be easily repaired by an amateur.

 

[davidhunternyc]

This discussion is interesting to say the least. It seems that every person who believes in Right to Repair there is another person who doesn’t. It’s incredible to me that we spend so much money to purchase these computers and yet people here don’t believe that we have the Right to Repair these computers when they break. No worries. “Just go out a buy another one. Problem solved.” I never said that a computer should be fixed by amateurs. I can’t even change a battery. When my 2010 MacBook Pro breaks I take it to professionals who know how to fix it. All the things that have broken in my old computer could not be fixed in any MacBook post-2015. Apple designed their new computers this way. The argument for thinness is ridiculous. Clearly, most people here have not watched Louis Rossman’s nor the iFixit videos. They are professionals telling us that Apple is pulling the wool over your eyes and you’ve bought into it.

 

[azentropy]

It’s incredible to me that we spend so much money to purchase these computers and yet people here don’t believe that we have the Right to Repair these computers when they break.

I think you are missing the very large group who are willing to give up the right to repair in order to have smaller, thinner, lighter, longer lasting battery life, and generally more reliable systems. I'd say cheaper too, but this is of course Apple. I don't always like it either, especially the right to upgrade!, but I do see the benefits.

 

[davidhunternyc]

I think you are missing the very large group who are willing to give up the right to repair in order to have smaller, thinner, lighter, longer lasting battery life, and generally more reliable systems. I'd say cheaper too,

A battery has a cycle life. It doesn't matter whether it's glued down or not. My 2010 MacBook Pro has had its battery replaced once and it will have to be replaced again in a year. When I have the next battery replaced it will be using the latest and best technology. I've got 10 years use out of this MacBook. If I bought a new MacBook there would be no way that the battery would last 10 years. How does soldering down the SSD, battery, and making computer chips unavailable to third party repair shops make a MacBook more reliable? Also, Macs are the most expensive computers in the industry. Whether they glue and solder stuff down or not Mac is going to charge a premium.

 

[azentropy]

A battery has a cycle life. It doesn't matter whether it's glued down or not. My 2010 MacBook Pro has had its battery replaced once and it will have to be replaced again in a year. When I have the next battery replaced it will be using the latest and best technology. I've got 10 years use out of this MacBook. If I bought a new MacBook there would be no way that the battery would last 10 years. How does soldering down the SSD, battery, and making computer chips unavailable to third party repair shops make a MacBook more reliable? Also, Macs are the most expensive computers in the industry. Whether they glue and solder stuff down or not Mac is going to charge a premium.

I had a 2010 13" MBP Pro, had to replace the battery myself as well - twice in the 6 years I had it. I also replaced the DVD and put in a tray so I could have a second SSD , upgrade the memory etc. I also did computer repair for many years both retail and in house for a Fortune 10 company, although it has been over 20 years since that was my "job"

I have a 2015 13" MBP and had to have the battery replaced in it as well. For that I could have still replaced it myself, but after looking at the process and figuring out the costs I determined it just wasn't worth it. Going through Apple I get a new battery, and also a new top case.

Soldering absolutely makes it more reliable than sockets (which are still soldered but then also have additional contacts).
By gluing down the battery it allows it either be larger or allows the case to be smaller.

 

[ApfelKuchen]

iFixit has its own financial interests at heart. They sell parts and tools. Obtaining those parts at wholesale can be a challenge when Apple is unwilling to sell them. Life would be nicer for iFixit if they could be a factory-authorized parts dealer. I have a feeling they'd be quite less vocal about "right to repair" if they did have that dealership.

No, you never said "amateurs," however this forum is full of amateurs looking for repair advice. A product owner certainly has a right to do their own repairs. They own the product, they can do as they please (and live with the consequences if they do a poor job of it).

The term "Right to Repair" is misleading to some degree. Much of the benefit of right to repair laws doesn't go to individuals who seek to do their own repairs, but repair shops who want access to manufacturer-supplied parts, tools, test software, and repair manuals. This may benefit someone who lives far from one of Apple's authorized service providers - some local computer whiz being able to offer repairs who otherwise would not have qualified to join Apple's network. But there's still going to be the question of whether a manufacturer's warranty should extend to products that have been repaired by individuals/shops that the manufacturer does not supervise. There is the perennial risk of obtaining repairs from those who have little specific experience with a particular product. Sure, the general principles of repair apply to most products, but in general it's beneficial to have repairs done by a shop that's thoroughly familiar with the specifics (just as one tends to prefer a medical specialist to a general practitioner when one has a specific ailment).

Right to Repair will not address the question of ease-of-repair or cost of repair. Again, government generally does not legislate product design, so thinking a local right to repair law will somehow address thinness or use of adhesives.... no, that's not going to change.

 

[davidhunternyc]

"This may benefit someone who lives far from one of Apple's authorized service providers - some local computer whiz being able to offer repairs who otherwise would not have qualified to join Apple's network."

Haven't you seen Louis Rossman's videos where he takes broken MacBook's to Apple's Genius bar to be fixed and they say it isn't fixable when in fact they are easily fixable? It's in Apple's own interest to not fix broken computers. It's better to convince the customer to buy new computers. This is dishonest. Also, do you consider Louis Rossman and every other computer repair expert to be unqualified to work for Apple? Seriously? What, are they all hacks? Maybe they don't want to work for minimum wage or have to wait off the clock after they finish their day to have their backpacks searched for stolen merchandise. There are many reasons to not want to work for Apple. To say that they're not qualified is a sweeping generalization.

Right to Repair should not be a local law but a federally legislated law. Ease of repair or cost of repair is irrelevant if you can't have your broken computer fixed. The few times I've had my 2010 MacBook Pro fixed it was done easily and it was affordable. Apple has continued to make this harder and harder to do. It's amazing that you are defending Apple. When your latest MacBook Pro breaks out of your warranty period, do you have zero problem with not being able to have your computer fixed? Why should your 5 year old computer be thrown in the landfill when it could easily be fixed and used, if not by you, then by the millions of people who need a computer?

Do you work for Apple?

 

[David58117]

I like Rossman from the videos I've seen - but I kind of wonder how skewed his views are. Everyone who brings him a computer to fix has a problem with it. From his perspective, Apple soldering/gluing parts may be their attempts to thwart people like him who repair them - but for everyone else, it's so the laptops / tablets can become smaller, thinner, lighter and faster. That's a trade off many people who DONT run a repair shop are fine with.

I'm willing to bet there's a significantly larger percentage of people who DON'T have problems. I've owned many Macs since 2012, and have rarely had problems. My 2015 15" is still going strong and was given to a family member. I had staingate years ago on another MacBook Pro, but apple fixed it. I sold it a few years later. My wife's 2016 13" had a keyboard issue - Apple fixed it for free, there were no issues since, and she sold it for a 2020 13". My 2014 MacMini is still going strong and is now a ubuntu server.

So I think you answered your own question with "why isn't the public outraged over this?" - it's because it's not really an issue (for those of us who don't run a business that repairs them).

 

[davidhunternyc]

David, your experience is anecdotal. Just because you have not had issues with you Apple products doesn't mean that others have not. It's not important to you so you come to the conclusion that it's not important to others. If it's not important to you why would you not want federal Right to Repair laws for computers?

If you have Apple products that last for decades then good for you. If someone else can not get their 5 year old MacBook fixed then federal Right to Repair laws are significant and would make repairing their computer easier. Why do you want to fight them on it? Third party repair shops have easily fixed my 2010 MacBook Pro. If it doesn't affect you, great, but then why do you insist on making it difficult for someone else to fix their own broken computer?

Also, Louis having an agenda is laughable? He is just the most vocal. Every Apple repair shop is on his side. Dr. Brendan is another excellent repair shop that I have used extensively and they too point out Apple's draconian repair practices. Have you seen the videos where Louis hovers over the computer board for two hours and explains the intentional shortcomings by Apple in a straight forward and logical manner? "This is what's wrong with this computer. This is how I will fix it. This is how Apple is making it difficult for me to fix."

You said that, "tablets can become smaller, thinner, lighter and faster." No. Glue and solder does not make computers smaller, thinner, lighter and faster. This would've happened regardless of Right to Repair. It's simply technology moving forward. In fact, most Apple users are tired of the smaller, thinner, and lighter agenda. It's a hand that's been played out years ago. If you were to take a poll and ask millions of Mac users if they want computers that are fast, reliable, and fixable after warranty, most if not all would vote "yes" on all counts.

What gets me is you, like the other Apple defenders here, are saying that it's O.K. for me to spend $3,000 on a MacBook Pro but I will never own it. Apple still reserves the right to make it inoperable after the warranty period ends.

Do you work for Apple?

 

[L-5Jazzman]

My wife loves her thinner and lighter 2018 MBP and doesn't care how repairable it is or not. We have a still-working 2010 MBP that has a replaced battery and SSD, both installed by me, but it gets almost no use. She would never buy another laptop that's that thick and heavy.

 

[ignatius345]

I don't think posting this here will be the best place,

Can't imagine why not!

I agree with you but the right to repair is a thing of the past. Especially with apple, It just generates more revenue and control of its users, think about the future where apple can use all the potential data for personal gain.

I have to sell my 2018 15" once the keyboard warranty ends because it has failed twice so far and I know it's going to keep failing. Look at error 53, apple bricked phones, and took them a YEAR to reverse it but the damage was done. Tesla blocks your vin if you try to repair your own car, it's just going to get worse in the future and reminds me of the watchdogs game.

Just because the trend has been toward hardware and software lockdown so far, doesn't mean it has to continue to be so!

This is why citizens (like us) would be wise to lean on our lawmakers to push for our right to repair our own stuff -- or at least make it possible for third-party service providers to be able to access the tools, parts and documentation to repair the products we buy.

 

[davidhunternyc]

My wife loves her thinner and lighter 2018 MBP and doesn't care how repairable it is or not. We have a still-working 2010 MBP that has a replaced battery and SSD, both installed by me, but it gets almost no use. She would never buy another laptop that's that thick and heavy.

It's great that you are in an income bracket where you can buy new Apple laptops every few years but many of us can not afford it and, even if we could, do not want to spend the money on a new computer just because the hard drive can't be fixed. Do you feel perfectly comfortable with, in a few years, having to throw your 2018 MacBook Pro in the trash because Apple has made it impossible to fix?

 

[ignatius345]

I like Rossman from the videos I've seen - but I kind of wonder how skewed his views are. Everyone who brings him a computer to fix has a problem with it. From his perspective, Apple soldering/gluing parts may be their attempts to thwart people like him who repair them - but for everyone else, it's so the laptops / tablets can become smaller, thinner, lighter and faster. That's a trade off many people who DONT run a repair shop are fine with.

I'm willing to bet there's a significantly larger percentage of people who DON'T have problems. I've owned many Macs since 2012, and have rarely had problems. My 2015 15" is still going strong and was given to a family member. I had staingate years ago on another MacBook Pro, but apple fixed it. I sold it a few years later. My wife's 2016 13" had a keyboard issue - Apple fixed it for free, there were no issues since, and she sold it for a 2020 13". My 2014 MacMini is still going strong and is now a ubuntu server.

So I think you answered your own question with "why isn't the public outraged over this?" - it's because it's not really an issue (for those of us who don't run a business that repairs them).

I just opened up my iMac to replace a dead hard drive, extending its life by years and saving me a couple grand I'd have to pay to buy a new one. I don't run a business that repairs them, but my ability to get into the machine (thanks to iFixit for the tools, parts and documentation) was a great help to me. And if I hadn't had the time or inclination to do the repair myself, I sure as hell would like for there to be a place I could take it to have it done. And before you tell me I could just "take it to a Genius Bar" I'd like to remind you that in a world where Apple is the only option, they can set whatever price they like.

As for the "they have to glue everything together to make it thin enough" arguement, I think that's marketing BS you've internalized. Apple hammers "thin thin thin" every year, but honestly would it matter to me if my iMac was 1" thicker if it meant all its components were readily replacable?

The earth can't support unlimited resource extraction forever. Making devices unrepairable for dubious aesthetic reasons is a harder and harder thing to justify.

 

[ignatius345]

My wife loves her thinner and lighter 2018 MBP and doesn't care how repairable it is or not. We have a still-working 2010 MBP that has a replaced battery and SSD, both installed by me, but it gets almost no use. She would never buy another laptop that's that thick and heavy.

False dilemma. Devices don't need to be glued shut or have their RAM soldered in or their batteries glued in to be thin. Don't buy into the marketing spin -- this is about Apple (and others) making as much money as possible by making older machines hard or impossible to upgrade or repair.

Also, zero surprise anyone prefers a 2018 Mac over a 2010 Mac. If you want to make a real comparison, imagine a current Mac that's maybe a couple millimeters thicker and has easily repairable or upgradable components.

 

[davidhunternyc]

My wife loves her thinner and lighter 2018 MBP and doesn't care how repairable it is or not. We have a still-working 2010 MBP that has a replaced battery and SSD, both installed by me, but it gets almost no use. She would never buy another laptop that's that thick and heavy.

False dilemma. Devices don't need to be glued shut or have their RAM soldered in or their batteries glued in to be thin. Don't buy into the marketing spin -- this is about Apple (and others) making as much money as possible by making older machines hard or impossible to upgrade or repair.

Absolutely, ignatius. And Jazzman, it's great that your wife loves her MacBook Pro. This wasn't the argument. We all love our MacBook Pro's. Thinner and lighter is great but it's been at the expense of the "Pro" moniker. None of this has anything to do with Right to Repair. I OWN my computer. I bought it. I must have the Right to Repair it after my warranty ends. If you don't feel that way, great, but don't infringe on anyone else's ability to have their computer fixed if they want it to be fixed.