You're talking about iMacs when the topic is laptops.
I agree "thinner and lighter" make less sense there. But I thought this topic was about laptops...
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Right to Repair !!!
- Thread starter davidhunternyc
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
You're talking about iMacs when the topic is laptops.
I agree "thinner and lighter" make less sense there. But I thought this topic was about laptops...
The title of this thread is 'Right to repair'. I don't see anything limiting this topic to laptops only.
Last edited:
Scared all the hardcore fans will get upset. But glad its getting traction, definitely a good topic to discuss.
100% agree. I just limited the topic to MacBooks for the sake of brevity but it should be applied to all computer products by every manufacturer. Apple, however, is at the forefront against Right to Repair. They continue to engineer products that make repairs impossible in the near future. (Check out Louis Rossman's video above.) Lately, Dell is starting to limit how their products can be repaired too. If laws are not passed in Congress, we will all lose. This topic is pertinent.
Last edited:
I also believe that products (computers, washing machines, cars, etc.) should be repairable. Our model of life based on consumption-driven economic growth cannot be sustained - as written - we will run out of resources unless we drown in garbage sooner.
Theoretically, changing the model to repair, for example by replacing components, seems to be a better solution for all of us in the long run.
However, another thing is worrying - while cutting costs, corporations have moved production to Asia, where no one cares about environmental costs. In Europe, for example, "climate neutrality" is being pursued by shifting the production of many products to China, which has the climate and the environment for nothing.
The problem, at least in my country, is the flood of cheap Chinese electronics (and other products, e.g. electric scooters,) that break down quickly and are replaced by new ones. In this respect, Apple products stand out positively as long-lasting - even though they come from Asian factories
Theoretically, changing the model to repair, for example by replacing components, seems to be a better solution for all of us in the long run.
However, another thing is worrying - while cutting costs, corporations have moved production to Asia, where no one cares about environmental costs. In Europe, for example, "climate neutrality" is being pursued by shifting the production of many products to China, which has the climate and the environment for nothing.
The problem, at least in my country, is the flood of cheap Chinese electronics (and other products, e.g. electric scooters,) that break down quickly and are replaced by new ones. In this respect, Apple products stand out positively as long-lasting - even though they come from Asian factories
Absolutely, the amount of E-Waste that Americans create is appalling. We ship all of our E-Waste to Thailand or some other country willing to take it. China does not put up with its own E-Waste and ships their trash out too. As for us? "Out of sight, out of mind." We are more than happy to be NIMBY's. For all of the people who don't think we should have the Right to Repair our own computers than maybe we should put an E-Waste dump in your backyard. How would you feel about that?
Last time I checked any certified third party shop can perform any repair. Your computer is your property and you can obviously do with it as you please, but I don’t see any logical reason why companies should be forced to make an objectively worse product, or make their proprietary technology readily available to you, just because of your unrealistic desire to uses computer for a decade. Computers are not blenders, they are highly integrated machines of extraordinary complexity, with quick innovation cycle. It is not reasonable to expect the same level of repairability for them as you would for other household devices.
There has to be a trade off somewhere. Manufactureres of electronic goods need to keep producing otherwise they just simply go out of business because no one is purchasing the new models due to customers repairing their old models and if that was to happen you'd have millions up millions of people around the world all becoming redundant because customers are taking the cheaper option of getting their items repaired rather than purchase an expensive new one.
If manufacturers need to keep turning out new models every year or so to help them stay in business then it is up to the government to make sure that the majority of the product is recyclable to prevent an increase in e-waste.
I've seen it first hand what happens when a product is manufactured very well and does not break very often, the company goes out of business. This happened to NEC in Europe. They had a factory that started off with a small run of satellite systems, the systems didn't break, as no one was buying replacements, the systems ended up being stock piled up in a warehouse in the Netherlands. The production line then switched to VHS video recorders, same thing happened, not many broke, customers didn't buy replacements, new customers did not want them so they were stock piled in the same warehouse. The production line then swithed to making computer monitors and again the same thing happened. After a number of years, the site closed down because the products were not breaking and those that did, people were repairing them and not buying replacements. Over 1000 people lost their jobs.
If Right to Repair goes ahead in the US, the exact same thing will happen. More and more people will be taking the option of getting their item repaired rather than buy a new one and the more items that get repaired it means one less is being purchased and if people do not buy the new product, it will not take long for the company to go out of business.
If manufacturers need to keep turning out new models every year or so to help them stay in business then it is up to the government to make sure that the majority of the product is recyclable to prevent an increase in e-waste.
I've seen it first hand what happens when a product is manufactured very well and does not break very often, the company goes out of business. This happened to NEC in Europe. They had a factory that started off with a small run of satellite systems, the systems didn't break, as no one was buying replacements, the systems ended up being stock piled up in a warehouse in the Netherlands. The production line then switched to VHS video recorders, same thing happened, not many broke, customers didn't buy replacements, new customers did not want them so they were stock piled in the same warehouse. The production line then swithed to making computer monitors and again the same thing happened. After a number of years, the site closed down because the products were not breaking and those that did, people were repairing them and not buying replacements. Over 1000 people lost their jobs.
If Right to Repair goes ahead in the US, the exact same thing will happen. More and more people will be taking the option of getting their item repaired rather than buy a new one and the more items that get repaired it means one less is being purchased and if people do not buy the new product, it will not take long for the company to go out of business.
Now you almost arguing for planned obsolescence... there are enough of cases of successful businesses producing high-quality products. If a business goes bankrupt because of this, I'd blame it on incompetent marketing strategy.
My personal issue with right to repair is a different one. Rapid innovation is a unique property of consumer gadget market. Many users prefer to change their gadgets often, and there is nothing wrong with it. Right of repair in the form that I've seen so far imposes a dictatorship of minority — the company is forced to keep readily available spare parts for devices that only few people still use — and that is not a cheap pleasure. If you want to keep your phone 3-5 years longer then everyone else, that's your prerogative. But I don't understand why I should pay more — or get an inferior product — just so that you have this choice.
It's good that you use the right proportions - yes, these are often gadgets and not basic necessities. In a world of limited resources, this model cannot go on forever.
Repairing and delivering parts can also be profitable.
In many countries, people do not have access to the latest technology and yet they are alive. The question is, do you have to have gadgets, or have you been told you must have them?
This vacation, my iPhone was in the hotel, I took with me a regular old school phone and an old Nikon camera from 2013. These holidays were as good as others and I spent less time with my nose on the phone
Repairing and delivering parts can also be profitable.
In many countries, people do not have access to the latest technology and yet they are alive. The question is, do you have to have gadgets, or have you been told you must have them?
This vacation, my iPhone was in the hotel, I took with me a regular old school phone and an old Nikon camera from 2013. These holidays were as good as others and I spent less time with my nose on the phone
You aren't an Apple hater? That's why you come out of the gates with offensive terms like 'apple fanboy' and put down every single person that says, 'not concerned about this issue.' We don't all want to maintain obsolete computers at the expense of progress for others. Most of us don't 'throw away' our computers when we upgrade or get the current version, we sell them because Apple computers hold their value for a long time. And the sources you quote that you say should Outrage us, are source that financially benefit from your point of view. Hardly neutral.
You will put me down like you have others that do not share your outrage and do enjoy the new features of their new machines more regularly than a decade. But I simply do not agree with you that we should not be excited about Apple silicon because of this huge 'elephant in the room.' It's more like a mouse in the corner to me. Any common repairs I have needed to make, can be made.
Only partly related, I recently had my 2017 MBP battery fail. It either wouldn't charge or wouldn't hold a charge. I did not have Apple Care and even if I did, I was just over the warranty period. Long story short, they replaced it under some extended warranty they had (I was not eligible for battery replacement according to my serial number so some other program). I was seriously questioning the overall quality and repairability, but fortunately, I feel they made it right. I know there are plenty of stories where Apple has denied repairs, but I guess mine is a success story.
By comparison, my wife's Dell laptop is also failing (battery and touchpad) and it's about the same age. I know that I might be able to repair hers, but I know for certain there is no support/warranty/fix options through Dell. In a way, I think of the Dell as more throw away than my MBP, maybe because of the initial investment.
I do wish they were more repairable and I wish they were upgradeable, but so long as they provide good service, I'm ok with that trade off.
By comparison, my wife's Dell laptop is also failing (battery and touchpad) and it's about the same age. I know that I might be able to repair hers, but I know for certain there is no support/warranty/fix options through Dell. In a way, I think of the Dell as more throw away than my MBP, maybe because of the initial investment.
I do wish they were more repairable and I wish they were upgradeable, but so long as they provide good service, I'm ok with that trade off.
Think pads are very thin too. I was able to install ram. Not glued in.
My previous job involved managing work computers of a medium-sized research department (about 60 or so people at it's peak). We mostly used Macs (over 90% of all computers), with few Dells, Lenovos and Surface Books in the mix. Any time we had an issue with a MacBook, it was fixed up no questions asked by our partner service center (not Apple Store) within a day or two. Time Machine would make the entire process seamless for us — the affected employee would just receive a replacement laptop (we keep a couple ready) and they could continue their work right where they left of after a lunch break. The only time we had to pay something was a case of one of our professors spilling water over his work laptop.
With Dell we had one of these business support agreements with on-site support. It involved long periods of waiting on the support call line, then couple of days until a technician would show up and take the laptop with them and return it after a week or two.
Now, Lenovo... Lenovo was a total disaster. Hours and hours of being ping ponged between different customer service reps ("Sir, we assure you that we will do everything to help you out"), then we were supposed to mail it to some remote repair center where it literally disappeared. If I remember correctly it took over a month until we got a message that the laptop cannot be repaired and an invoice for a couple of hundred Swiss franks for "disposal". I told them in the most diplomatic Swiss fashion where I saw their invoice and politely asked them to return our properly lest they want to be reported for theft. We got the laptop back a week later. The invoice was not mentioned again.
It's hubris to think that most people in this country can afford to upgrade their computers every few years. Many people cannot. This is another reason why we need federal Right to Repair laws. New computers with the latest technology will always entice people to upgrade, hence why so many people constantly upgrade their iPhones. Many people, however, live on a restricted budget and need to be able to fix their electronic devices when broken. This isn't a $200 VHS player but a 2 - $3,000 computer. Computers are a major purchase for many people and they should be able to fix them when broken. Apple surely will not go out of business if there were federal Right to Repair laws. That's a ridiculous argument.
Recently I repaired Wacom Mobile Studio Pro due battery bulging, and I was surprised. All components including main logic board, screen digitizer and glass, everything is removable module. Unlike most tablet which screen are glued together, this device has separated screwdriver to keep those screen and chassis, just supported with additional mild adhesive.
Being non mainstream device, repairing was tough task due lack of information and tutorial on internet. But once I cracked up, repairing was breeze, the only strong glued parts is just battery, the rest is removable connector. That device now back working without any issues.
From productivity standpoint, yes I lose several hours for repairing, but compared with non serviceable one, sending back to repair are more no go especially if I had tight deadline, so I still considering right to repair as option when buying devices.
Being non mainstream device, repairing was tough task due lack of information and tutorial on internet. But once I cracked up, repairing was breeze, the only strong glued parts is just battery, the rest is removable connector. That device now back working without any issues.
From productivity standpoint, yes I lose several hours for repairing, but compared with non serviceable one, sending back to repair are more no go especially if I had tight deadline, so I still considering right to repair as option when buying devices.
I have used the Wacom Studio Pro before and it is a real "Pro" tool. I do not have the know-how to fix broken electronics but the fact that I could take a broken Wacom to be fixed easily is an example of how computers should be built.
And it is reasonable to expect that the earth will remain habitable if we keep cranking out disposable electronics? You're arguing for a status quo that absolutely cannot be sustained if we're to keep living on this planet.
Twenty years ago half the gadgets we take for granted didn't even exist. Are you seriously saying that the industry who innovated this much can't come up with a way to make repairable tech? Please.
Yeah, the tradeoff is that companies like Apple need to figure out how to build things that can be repaired instead of replaced. AirPods are literallly disposable, for one example: as soon as the lithium battery glued inside wears out, they're garbage. Look up any teardown of them if you don't believe me.
If a company can't figure out a better way to exist than to keep cranking out sealed, unrepairable electronics then that company should simply go out of business. Just look at the news if you want to see the real-life ramifications of runaway carbon production.
Last edited:
What is reasonable is that Apple must not glue down parts that don't have to be glued down. It's that simple. If you buy a lamp should you be able to change the lightbulb? If I buy a computer I should be able to change the battery. This isn't rocket science, folks.
I copied and pasted this from another thread from someone who is having problems with the battery on their 2019 MacBook Pro:
Last edited:
I would not say it is super expensive to have Apple replace the battery, especially when you consider you get a new battery, keyboard, trackpad, and the Aluminum case where your wrist rest. Not a bad deal for $199. https://support.apple.com/mac/repair/service
If you want to do it yourself you can save some money Ifixit sells a kit for $100-$140 based on model. But this is battery only. https://www.ifixit.com/Kits/Mac-Laptop-Fix-Kits/MacBook-Pro-Fix-Kits
For comparison, Amazon will sell you an genuine Dell XPS 15 battery for around $120 -150 depending on the model. https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Battery-11-4V-8N0T7-0TMFYT/dp/B082MP9DB2
Last edited:
As an Amazon Associate, MacRumors earns a commission from qualifying purchases made through links in this post.
... in order to provide competitive repair options for end-users, including individual consumers. The Right to Repair isn't just about laptops and iPhones. Take a look at the farmers who can't repair their own tractors without John Deere's authorization because everything in software is an IP-protected black box. Or hospitals who have to bleed out massive amounts of money for equipment service contracts because their technicians don't have access to training and resources they need.
How would you like it if you bought a Toyota and it turned out every bolt had some Toyota-specific key that meant you had to go the dealer ("for safety") and pay whatever they decide to charge? Or how about if all the parts were just welded on? You accept this in a computer, but you wouldn't in a car.
Battery in any Mac laptop can be replaced for a reasonable fee at any Apple service provider. I see no problem in using glue. I’d rather have a glued down battery that lasts 5 years and delivers good performance than user-replaceable one that is crap, like in other laptops.
One has to distinguish between arbitrary lock in (like in case of John Deere) and design tradeoffs. Say, glued-on batteries in Mac laptops make them non-replaceable by the end user, but it also allows more compact and reliable battery packaging. Soldered-on RAM has higher reliability and can be better optimized for performance and power consumption. The only component in modern Macs that I'd argue is locked in arbitrarily is the SSD. It would have been easy for Apple to put it on a separate mini-board.
Training and resources should definitely be accessible by everyone who needs them. But I am categorically agains non-certified personnel repairing potentially life-critical equipment. Take Louis Rossmann for example. The self-proclaimed right to repair champion was actually smuggling uncertified batteries from China to install them in user devices, potentially compromising their functionality and safety.
Anyway, I would fully support a right to repair version where companies are obliged to offer certification, documentation and parts for supported products — for a reasonable price — to competent technicians. But since this is already reality with Apple, I am not quite sure what the criticism is aimed at.
There are plenty of cars that have such restrictions. Tesla, GM, BMW, Mercedes, etc. have limitations on what an owner is allowed to do.
BMW, will not warranty a battery replacement that is owner installed. It takes a specific device ODB scanner to "register" the battery.
And in some circumstances downgrade the capabilities of the cars in the event of a major accident. For example, Tesla will not let cars with salvage titles use their Supercharger network or even 3rd party high-speed DC chargers. That means you can charge them at home on slow chargers, but most quick chargers along the highway will not work.
Last edited:
