rMBP + Windows gaming

[SDAVE]

Here's a vidcap of it being projected at 1920x1080 from the rMBP via HDMI (My projector is limited to 720p, though)...but as you can see there is not much lag even with most settings on Extra High. I was able to connect a PS3 controller and it works perfectly (except can't get Bluetooth to work yet). I also have a nice audio setup with an Audeze LCD3 and use that via a USB DAC/AMP. Really cool setup. All free too (well except for the PC games), no need to buy a PS4 or a new PC. Like I mentioned before, the only downside is the fans kick up but with the headphones on it's not so bad and I can put the rMBP on the wood floor.

https://vid.me/w7Ze

 

[Ovedius]

Guys the throttling may have to do with Intel Speedstep...unless AMD has speed throttling on it's AMD GPU?

Using GPU-Z in Windows 10 one can quite clearly see that the GPU throttles itself.
Once temperatures start hovering around 85-95 celsius the GPU starts throttling down from 800MHz.
It usually stabilizes at 675MHz, but can hover around 400-675.
Depending on the temperature in the room it can go as absurdly low as 300 MHz, rendering it utterly useless.

I'm uploading the log so people can see, if they're interested.
That particular log was recorded while playing Alien: Isolation.
You'll see it starts out strong, injecting graphics straight into your eyeballs and then goes limp once things start to heat up

You might also notice that the GPU just runs at 300MHz when idle, which is nice.

 

[Ovedius]

Here's a vidcap of it being projected at 1920x1080 from the rMBP via HDMI (My projector is limited to 720p, though)...but as you can see there is not much lag even with most settings on Extra High. I was able to connect a PS3 controller and it works perfectly (except can't get Bluetooth to work yet). I also have a nice audio setup with an Audeze LCD3 and use that via a USB DAC/AMP. Really cool setup. All free too (well except for the PC games), no need to buy a PS4 or a new PC. Like I mentioned before, the only downside is the fans kick up but with the headphones on it's not so bad and I can put the rMBP on the wood floor.

https://vid.me/w7Ze

Nice
I played MGS V with a PS4 controller sat at the kitchen table
-had it connected to the tv sometimes when the missus wasn't hogging it!

 

[SDAVE]

Using GPU-Z in Windows 10 one can quite clearly see that the GPU throttles itself.
Once temperatures start hovering around 85-95 celsius the GPU starts throttling down from 800MHz.
It usually stabilizes at 675MHz, but can hover around 400-675.
Depending on the temperature in the room it can go as absurdly low as 300 MHz, rendering it utterly useless.

I'm uploading the log so people can see, if they're interested.
That particular log was recorded while playing Alien: Isolation.
You'll see it starts out strong, injecting graphics straight into your eyeballs and then goes limp once things start to heat up

You might also notice that the GPU just runs at 300MHz when idle, which is nice.

That really sucks sorry to hear that. It makes a lot of sense on Apples side though because they're always after saving energy and generating less heat and I assume they went with AMD because they throttle the gpu via firmware. Too bad you can't unlock it. This throttling explains a lot about my recent problems with AMD iMacs. I bet the Apple native apps like FCPX somehow unlock this...

Hopefully the next rMBP Doesn't have this problem. You should send a feedback report to apple or email Tim Cook. I know they read. I will email them too. You could also find a 2014 rMBP but you probably don't want to do that.

 

[SDAVE]

Nice
I played MGS V with a PS4 controller sat at the kitchen table
-had it connected to the tv sometimes when the missus wasn't hogging it!

I rarely game it's been kind of fun to do it since there's some free time

I bought MGS V for my dusty PS3 and it looked like crap and I couldn't play it. Threw it in the closet. Sold my monster Mac Pro with a GTX780 so I'm stuck with just an iPhone and an rMBP. Kind of nice to get something out of a machine that was never intended to do this

 

[Ovedius]

...
You should send a feedback report to apple or email Tim Cook. I know they read. I will email them too. You could also find a 2014 rMBP but you probably don't want to do that.

I might be about to sound like I've just fallen out of a tree but:
We can email them directly?

I've been hesitant to contact Apple about this because I thought you could only contact them by telephone.
(by navigating through the Support section on apple.com (well, apple.no, in my case) I only find a customer support phone number)
The thought of explaining this issue over telephone to at least three different people from three different countries just makes me so, so very, very tired.
I find writing is better suited to help with overcoming the language barrier, mostly.


Well, that was too long, don't read it.

Can you give me the right email addresses?

 

[SDAVE]

I might be about to sound like I've just fallen out of a tree but:
We can email them directly?

I've been hesitant to contact Apple about this because I thought you could only contact them by telephone.
(by navigating through the Support section on apple.com (well, apple.no, in my case) I only find a customer support phone number)
The thought of explaining this issue over telephone to at least three different people from three different countries just makes me so, so very, very tired.
I find writing is better suited to help with overcoming the language barrier, mostly.


Well, that was too long, don't read it.

Can you give me the right email addresses?

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbookpro.html

tcook@apple.com

I know Steve used to reply, I've received a reply from him a long time ago around 2006.

But the chances are this is a minor issue for them, but worth emailing. I sent feedback about the degraded performance from their AMD GPUs so hopefully they take a look at it.

If you call support they may take note of it and put it higher up, but it's probably a dead weight. Apple won't cover Windows issues with their machines, but if you tell them the issue is with official apps like Photoshop etc they make take it into account. They may escalate it to a higher up you never know.

FYI there seems to be a thread already about this very same issue.

 

[SDAVE]

Using GPU-Z in Windows 10 one can quite clearly see that the GPU throttles itself.
Once temperatures start hovering around 85-95 celsius the GPU starts throttling down from 800MHz.
It usually stabilizes at 675MHz, but can hover around 400-675.
Depending on the temperature in the room it can go as absurdly low as 300 MHz, rendering it utterly useless.

I'm uploading the log so people can see, if they're interested.
That particular log was recorded while playing Alien: Isolation.
You'll see it starts out strong, injecting graphics straight into your eyeballs and then goes limp once things start to heat up

You might also notice that the GPU just runs at 300MHz when idle, which is nice.

FYI are you using the Bootcamp Drivers? Here's a thread, it seems that the official AMD drivers may throttle your GPU but the Bootcamp drivers are optimized not to throttle:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7061852

Here's a quote from a review:

Unfortunately, the MacBook Pro is affected by a very annoying problem when you use Windows, which results in frame rate drops during prolonged gaming sessions: The Radeon GPU cannot maintain its core clock of 800 MHz. The clock often fluctuates between 675 and 725 MHz, but occasionally drops to 400 MHz. The resulting stutters are very annoying, particularly when you play shooting games, and seem to be caused by thermal throttling when the core temperature reaches around 74 °C (~165 °F).

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-Retina-15-Mid-2015-Review.144402.0.html

 

[Ovedius]

FYI are you using the Bootcamp Drivers? Here's a thread, it seems that the official AMD drivers may throttle your GPU but the Bootcamp drivers are optimized not to throttle

Right now I'm using the latest drivers available from AMD:
http://support.amd.com/en-us/download/desktop/bootcamp

But before that I used the Bootcamp drivers from Apple and experienced throttling with those as well.

Thanks for the links, I'll make sure to voice my disappointment directly to Apple.

 

[HumpYourWayUp]

The big problem with the M370x is the horrible horrible driver support.
Usually when big games are released (like Fallout 4 or Metal Gear Solid 5) the manufacturers (AMD, Nvidia) release new drivers with special profiles for each game. This hasn't happened with the M370X since forever.
I don't know who is responsible for the sub-par driver support. Maybe AMD or maybe Apple.
But one thing is for sure: Apple ****ed up big time by using the M370x instead of for example a Nvidia 960M.
The M370x is also two or three years old hardware in a 2500+ Dollar computer. Lets face it - Apple used the M370x in order to save money - shame on them (again)!

But even being an old card, the M370x still is faster then the previous GPU's in the Macbook Pros. Those old Nvidia GPU's only shine because of stellar driver support by Nvidia.

Really hate that Apple chose AMD the looser GPU company...

 

[SDAVE]

The big problem with the M370x is the horrible horrible driver support.
Usually when big games are released (like Fallout 4 or Metal Gear Solid 5) the manufacturers (AMD, Nvidia) release new drivers with special profiles for each game. This hasn't happened with the M370X since forever.
I don't know who is responsible for the sub-par driver support. Maybe AMD or maybe Apple.
But one thing is for sure: Apple ****ed up big time by using the M370x instead of for example a Nvidia 960M.
The M370x is also two or three years old hardware in a 2500+ Dollar computer. Lets face it - Apple used the M370x in order to save money - shame on them (again)!

But even being an old card, the M370x still is faster then the previous GPU's in the Macbook Pros. Those old Nvidia GPU's only shine because of stellar driver support by Nvidia.

Really hate that Apple chose AMD the looser GPU company...

AMD sucks with drivers. They just have low resources for GPUs. nVidia only makes GPUs and they have more resources. I installed a driver for the AMD 280x on a Windows machine and I get constant glitches. I've never had such problems with nVidia.

The AMD may look better than the nVidia GPU in rMBP's, and I assume the OS X driver is solid, but on the Windows side it's terrible because the GPU throttles down like crazy compared to nVidia.

 

[dingobiatch]

Major throttling here. I've run a ton of tests now, and I upgraded to El Capitan because someone said that fixes it... Nope.

I start a game, my GPU temp rises to ~81 degrees, clocks drop from 800 to 400, and until I stop the game or alt-tab, clocks will just stay between 400 and 600. This is crazy because A) what the hell is the point of having a graphics card if it's going to be at half power any time you run a game, and B) my desktop GPU is an r9 290, it's in a small HTPC case, and the GPU sits around 85 to 92 degrees when playing games... no throttling at all.

 

[SDAVE]

Major throttling here. I've run a ton of tests now, and I upgraded to El Capitan because someone said that fixes it... Nope.

I start a game, my GPU temp rises to ~81 degrees, clocks drop from 800 to 400, and until I stop the game or alt-tab, clocks will just stay between 400 and 600. This is crazy because A) what the hell is the point of having a graphics card if it's going to be at half power any time you run a game, and B) my desktop GPU is an r9 290, it's in a small HTPC case, and the GPU sits around 85 to 92 degrees when playing games... no throttling at all.

I wonder if Apple even tested these cards. I think rMBP was EOL, so they just decided to save some money.

Because if you run any OpenCL applications it will kick up the fans and throttle. Even something simple as Adobe Media Encoder can use OpenCL, along with Premiere Pro and Davinci Resolve. So it's NOT about only games. That sucks guys, I feel bad for you.

You guys should email tim cook and send feedback to apple and spam them.

 

[dingobiatch]

I'm gonna take mine in first since I've also seen console messages about thermal pressure issues on the Mac side of things. I'm wondering if there was a batch of laptops sent out with issues.

 

[SDAVE]

I'm gonna take mine in first since I've also seen console messages about thermal pressure issues on the Mac side of things. I'm wondering if there was a batch of laptops sent out with issues.

I really doubt it. It seems like it's being throttled via EFI. They set some hard limit when the GPU reaches a certain temperature and they throttle down the clock speed.

 

[Ovedius]

Frankly it is utterly outrageous.
It is perfectly reasonable to demand stable performance from a machine as costly as this.

I'm currently in contact with Apple Support, will let you know what their response is.
-they phoned me up after I emailed Tim Cook about this issue.

I suspect the only answer I'll get is that the gpu is working as intended.
-intended being "not at all" in this case, utter *****.
For Christ's sake, the GPU throttles down from 800Mhz once it passes 85 degrees, then it drops down to 4-675MHz and stays there (75 degrees).
It never, ever throttles back up.


Hoping I'll get to return the machine and get a refund.
If not I'll sell it to someone who doesn't care because this is absolutely unacceptable for me.

 

[SDAVE]

Frankly it is utterly outrageous.
It is perfectly reasonable to demand stable performance from a machine as costly as this.

I'm currently in contact with Apple Support, will let you know what their response is.
-they phoned me up after I emailed Tim Cook about this issue.

I suspect the only answer I'll get is that the gpu is working as intended.
-intended being "not at all" in this case, utter *****.
For Christ's sake, the GPU throttles down from 800Mhz once it passes 85 degrees, then it drops down to 4-675MHz and stays there (75 degrees).
It never, ever throttles back up.


Hoping I'll get to return the machine and get a refund.
If not I'll sell it to someone who doesn't care because this is absolutely unacceptable for me.

That's awesome that they replied when you emailed Tim Cook's email.

You should keep pressing them and sending these threads. There are discussions on the official Apple forums too.

You should sell/return your current one and get a 2014 rMBP (They're MUCH cheaper) until Apple releases a new designed rMBP. And who knows what they'll do with the throttling on those.

I thought new GPU's were supposed to be more heat efficient.

 

[Ovedius]

That's awesome that they replied when you emailed Tim Cook's email.

Yeah, I wrote a very politely phrased email to mr. Cook explaining the issue and suddenly, a couple of days later, a service representative called me.
Took me by surprise to say the least!

I was quickly forwarded to a technical advisor type and after explaining the issue to him he said he'd call me up in a couple of days after speaking to some engineering ...person.

Right now they want to determine wether the "alleged" throttling is a problem specific to my machine or an intended "system preservation feature", or what you might call it.
-I think the outcome here is pretty obvious so I'm not exactly holding my breath.

The best outcome I can see is either that I am offered a refund or by some miracle they admit that this is an issue they are aware of and working on fixing via an update.
The latter outcome would make me so incredibly happy as I really would love to keep it.

You should sell/return your current one and get a 2014 rMBP (They're MUCH cheaper) until Apple releases a new designed rMBP. And who knows what they'll do with the throttling on those.

Maybe, haven't decided quite yet.
Might just sit on the funds and see what happens next refresh.
-I'll most definitely wait for possible reports of throttling before purchasing anything!

I thought new GPU's were supposed to be more heat efficient.

Go figure!

 

[dingobiatch]

Right now they want to determine wether the "alleged" throttling is a problem specific to my machine or an intended "system preservation feature", or what you might call it.
-I think the outcome here is pretty obvious so I'm not exactly holding my breath.

I'm more than happy to provide any details about my own machine, since it's doing the same thing..

 

[SDAVE]

You guys should band together and CC everyone that has the issue. Apple needs to know that they are being lazy with their Macs.

 

[Acronyc]

I only have a 2014 rMBP with a discreet 750m and I rarely game, but just got Fallout 4 and installed Windows 10.

It's kind of amazing how high of the settings I can turn up with this modern game that came out pretty much today.

My question is, will this damage the rMBP? The fans (obviously) kick up pretty high during gaming. I would say the max I would game would be an hour a day at most

That's great to hear it has such good performance. I have a 2012 15" rMBP with the 650M and was wondering how it would play, as it doesn't meet Bethesda's minimum VRAM requirements (I have 1GB and 2GB are required), plus it's an older chip.

I didn't want to risk it so I bought it on the PS4 and it looks and plays great, but the problem is my access to the TV is limited as it's usually being used by my family when I'm home. So it'd be nice to play it on my Mac and thunderbolt display.

Maybe I'll give it a go however over the holidays. As an aside, Fallout 4 took only almost 3 hours to install on the PS4.

 

[SDAVE]

That's great to hear it has such good performance. I have a 2012 15" rMBP with the 650M and was wondering how it would play, as it doesn't meet Bethesda's minimum VRAM requirements (I have 1GB and 2GB are required), plus it's an older chip.

I didn't want to risk it so I bought it on the PS4 and it looks and plays great, but the problem is my access to the TV is limited as it's usually being used by my family when I'm home. So it'd be nice to play it on my Mac and thunderbolt display.

Maybe I'll give it a go however the holidays. As an aside, Fallout 4 took only almost 3 hours to install on the PS4.

Give it a shot. The 650m is no slouch. Tone down some of the settings and you'll be fine. Fallout4 is essentially Skyrim with some flashier graphics. It doesn't even look that great at highest setting my friend has it on with his 980TI.

 

[WindowsTraitor]

MB have never been gaming machines. What is tim going to respond to you. Oh buddy, I am sorry you cannot play games in your mb using windows...

If you want to play games get a ps4 or a windows gaming machine.

On the other hand the video card is garbage. I finally got the new 2015 and this is the only time I've purchased a MB where I fell that I have been downgraded.

 

[SDAVE]

MB have never been gaming machines. What is tim going to respond to you. Oh buddy, I am sorry you cannot play games in your mb using windows...

If you want to play games get a ps4 or a windows gaming machine.

On the other hand the video card is garbage. I finally got the new 2015 and this is the only time I've purchased a MB where I fell that I have been downgraded.

Uh ok. The point is if the gpu gets throttled pro apps like fcpx davinci resolve premiere after effects cannot use the gpu to its full capacity under OS X

 

[Ovedius]

MB have never been gaming machines. What is tim going to respond to you. Oh buddy, I am sorry you cannot play games in your mb using windows...

If you want to play games get a ps4 or a windows gaming machine.

On the other hand the video card is garbage. I finally got the new 2015 and this is the only time I've purchased a MB where I fell that I have been downgraded.

The point here is that the video card can't handle anything, be it game or any other 3D software, in OS X or Windows before throttling itself into uselessness.
No one who purchased the 2015 dGPU Macbook Pro should be okay with this.