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Also there are plenty of OSX games in the official App store...approved by Apple. Plenty of heavy games there. So to say that it's not for "gaming"...the argument is moot.

The GPU gets used by other apps not just games. I'm not even a gamer and this pisses me off.
 
Exactly.
And still I can't help but feel like a schmuck while talking to Apple tech support about this.
Because, sadly, the only software I can use to observe the throttling happens to be computer games.
Which, I feel, eradicates all credibility from my legitimate concern about an actual fault.
CURSES! :mad:

Also, the only software (that I have found) that is able to document the throttling happens to be exclusive to Windows.
-GPU-Z
So the only documentation I can bring to bear in order to vindicate my claim can easily be shot down with a simple "but this is a Mac...".
DOUBLE CURSES! :mad:
 
Run Unigine Heaven on max while you check your GPU temps with ATIccelerator II (the closest I found that shows clock speed, but it may not work with your card) and take physical evidence, ie video/screenshots and show it to Apple. Since this happens under OS X as well (I hope, for proofing purposes) I'd highly recommend you send these to the team as well.

Since Windows is not "officially" supported they may say the dGPU always runs under Windowss and GPU-Z results will not be respected by Apple.
 
Depending on how mobile you want to be, iGPU + eGPU might be the best of both worlds. I never game on the road, so having an eGPU ( Zotac GTX 760 Amp! Edition ) at home that I can plug in and play almost anything at high / max settings is quite nice ( not to mention I'm using a 13" rMBP and rendering stuff on the internal display... using an external monitor and faster CPU would bump frame rates up even more on certain games ).

On the down side, it's definitely not cheap... the closure + gpu can add up fast, but it definitely beats 99% of the crap dGPUs you'll find on laptops of comparable size / weight / price. It also helps with heat because the internal GPU won't need to struggle as much ( don't get me wrong, the notebook will still heat up quite a bit but at least the proper GPU is not sitting on your lap and frying your... ) and when I do decide to get a new notebook, all I need is a Thunderbolt connection to hook my eGPU up and I'm ready to rumble ( the GPU can also be upgraded if really needed - doubtful - and if the casing / setup can hold / feed a better card than the one you already have ).

You're of course not running at 100% of the card's capacity due to technical ( hardware ) limitations of the entire setup, but overall, I still think it's well worth it.

PS: always game on Windows. 99% of the Mac ports are pathetic performance-wise...
 
Depending on how mobile you want to be, iGPU + eGPU might be the best of both worlds. I never game on the road, so having an eGPU ( Zotac GTX 760 Amp! Edition ) at home that I can plug in and play almost anything at high / max settings is quite nice ( not to mention I'm using a 13" rMBP and rendering stuff on the internal display... using an external monitor and faster CPU would bump frame rates up even more on certain games ).

On the down side, it's definitely not cheap... the closure + gpu can add up fast, but it definitely beats 99% of the crap dGPUs you'll find on laptops of comparable size / weight / price. It also helps with heat because the internal GPU won't need to struggle as much ( don't get me wrong, the notebook will still heat up quite a bit but at least the proper GPU is not sitting on your lap and frying your... ) and when I do decide to get a new notebook, all I need is a Thunderbolt connection to hook my eGPU up and I'm ready to rumble ( the GPU can also be upgraded if really needed - doubtful - and if the casing / setup can hold / feed a better card than the one you already have ).

You're of course not running at 100% of the card's capacity due to technical ( hardware ) limitations of the entire setup, but overall, I still think it's well worth it.

PS: always game on Windows. 99% of the Mac ports are pathetic performance-wise...

That was the plan, but Thunderbolt 3 is coming out and that will double the performance. eGPU enclosures are quite expensive, $500. Then add a card $300-400, that's almost a full blown PC.

Mac ports are definitely crappy, but the point was to report to Apple that under OS X if there is any throttling so they can fix it via firmware, maybe.

OS X does not reveal the whole GPU so ports are usually bad -- that has changed with Metal, but it's too new and not sure any game companies use it.
 
It's possible to get enclosures around 150-200$ ( check ViDock for example - or the more hardcore way, a DIY setup that can be significantly cheaper ). Either way, I agree and I've pointed it out myself previously that such a setup can definitely end up to be quite expensive. To me, a full blown PC is out of the question... I'd rather pay more and have a notebook + eGPU than a bulky notebook or a desktop or a notebook + a desktop ( the reason I don't want a PC is because I prefer using a laptop and I prefer using it in bed 99% of the time - I know this might sounds very weird to many, but it works for me ).

Apple might eventually fix the throttling issue, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Games were never a priority for them and as long as others using the dGPU aren't complaining ( issues with video editing, rendering, etc. ), I guess they'll keep it a "very low priority" ( or even "won't fix" ). Perhaps the next model will come with an NVidia GPU instead of ATI. Even so, the upgrade to the dGPU is quite steep for many and so far, it's not really worth the price if gaming is the intention... for that money, one could get the iGPU model + eGPU setup. It really comes down to personal preference / needs...
 
It's possible to get enclosures around 150-200$ ( check ViDock for example - or the more hardcore way, a DIY setup that can be significantly cheaper ). Either way, I agree and I've pointed it out myself previously that such a setup can definitely end up to be quite expensive. To me, a full blown PC is out of the question... I'd rather pay more and have a notebook + eGPU than a bulky notebook or a desktop or a notebook + a desktop ( the reason I don't want a PC is because I prefer using a laptop and I prefer using it in bed 99% of the time - I know this might sounds very weird to many, but it works for me ).

Apple might eventually fix the throttling issue, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Games were never a priority for them and as long as others using the dGPU aren't complaining ( issues with video editing, rendering, etc. ), I guess they'll keep it a "very low priority" ( or even "won't fix" ). Perhaps the next model will come with an NVidia GPU instead of ATI. Even so, the upgrade to the dGPU is quite steep for many and so far, it's not really worth the price if gaming is the intention... for that money, one could get the iGPU model + eGPU setup. It really comes down to personal preference / needs...

Can I use the internal display if I get a eGPU? Maybe a GTX960/970 (980 is too expensive). I have a 2014 rMBP. I heard you can't use the internal display if you have a dGPU.

Is the ViDock as good as the Akkitio Thunder2 mod?
 
Also there are plenty of OSX games in the official App store...approved by Apple. Plenty of heavy games there. So to say that it's not for "gaming"...the argument is moot.

The GPU gets used by other apps not just games. I'm not even a gamer and this pisses me off.

To be fair, those really aren't AAA games people want to play nor would any gamer actually call them "heavy games." I'd personally view the app store games as more childs play then anything else. You've got ported games from 10+ years ago and various others but that's another discussion which is ongoing in the gaming forum. >.<

The fact of the matter is, OS X doesn't support the gaming powerhouse like Windows does. El Capitan even has no support for a few key standard game settings. Throw in GPUs that get released in $2500 Macs which are outdated in the real world and it's not that far from being able to say one should invest in a console or windows machine for actual gaming...
 
To be fair, those really aren't AAA games people want to play nor would any gamer actually call them "heavy games." I'd personally view the app store games as more childs play then anything else. You've got ported games from 10+ years ago and various others but that's another discussion which is ongoing in the gaming forum. >.<

The fact of the matter is, OS X doesn't support the gaming powerhouse like Windows does. El Capitan even has no support for a few key standard game settings. Throw in GPUs that get released in $2500 Macs which are outdated in the real world and it's not that far from being able to say one should invest in a console or windows machine for actual gaming...

We get it, OS X is an afterthought for game developers. That's always been the case since the early days of the Mac. But to say that there aren't any AAA games is absurd. Those were AAA games at one time. Those games are just older that's all and maybe the graphics are dumbed down. This is the reason Apple has Bootcamp.

To be honest I had a maxed Mac Pro (2010) with a GTX780 and I could play any game you throw at it under windows. Any modern AAA I could play at highest settings, so to say Macs aren't for gaming is not really a valid argument.

To say that the MacBook Pro's dGPU is not for gaming is also an invalid argument. Under Windows it functions like a normal PC. It's your machine you can do whatever you want with it.

The only reason I made this thread was to remind people that the rMBP is no slouch in terms of performance. I use OS X 99% of the time and I never game, I've just had a lot of downtime and Fallout 4 came out at a perfect time. The fact that I can connect my old PS3 controller and play as if it's a PS4 is great for me. I don't have to buy PS4 games (more expensive than PC games) and a PS4 console.
 
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We get it, OS X is an afterthought for game developers. That's always been the case since the early days of the Mac. But to say that there aren't any AAA games is absurd. Those were AAA games at one time. Those games are just older that's all and maybe the graphics are dumbed down. This is the reason Apple has Bootcamp.

I never said there aren't any. I did say what's on the app store isn't really considered AAA games.. Sorry, ports from 10 years ago =/= AAA games by today's standards. You're playing Fallout 4, one of the top AAA games this year. In 10 years, the same sentiment will stand for that game as well. =P

To be honest I had a maxed Mac Pro (2010) with a GTX780 and I could play any game you throw at it under windows. Any modern AAA I could play at highest settings, so to say Macs aren't for gaming is not really a valid argument.

Considering I was responding to somebody exclaiming the mac app store had a plethora of games which declares it a gaming computer and considering Windows doesn't have a mac app store, then I'd say your argument is a bit invalid for this one. I'm talking about OS X. I'm not talking about Boot Camp. =P

To say that the MacBook Pro's dGPU is not for gaming is also an invalid argument. Under Windows it functions like a normal PC. It's your machine you can do whatever you want with it.

Again, "Under Windows" My point is, if you want a true gaming computer, buying a rMBP isn't the answer when you pay through the nose for a subpar system. Pretty easy to understand. Not bashing Macs or anything. But people do need to realize the limitations of OS X vs. Windows. Yeah, Windows sucks blahblahblah but then those same spouters talk about how good Game01 runs under boot camp, which is basically making your Mac into an overpriced Windows machine. Nothing wrong with it but doesn't really tie in with who I was responding to...

The only reason I made this thread was to remind people that the rMBP is no slouch in terms of performance. I use OS X 99% of the time and I never game, I've just had a lot of downtime and Fallout 4 came out at a perfect time. The fact that I can connect my old PS3 controller and play as if it's a PS4 is great for me. I don't have to buy PS4 games (more expensive than PC games) and a PS4 console.

According to your OP, it was a question whether fans kicking up would damage your computer... If it was actually to boast about how amazing your performances are, there is a game forum with a couple Fallout 4 threads happening you might find helpful, as well as let's others there know what kind of performances you have on your 2014 mac.
 
I really don't want to get into a prolonged argument over semantics here. Not a huge fan of arguing on an internet forum with anonymous users.

These arguments have been happening since 2006 when Apple went with Intel, and it seems to never end. The point is Apple uses PC parts now, it's not PowerPC anymore. Windows can be installed. You can do whatever you want with it now.

The OP was about letting others know that...yes you can play a modern game that came out 10 days ago on a tiny laptop. Yes it will get hot and yes it may shorten the lifespan of the said machine. It's supposed to be a helpful thread not one to argue over if OS X supports games or not and what a machine that costs over $2,000 is capable of doing (I bought mine $1,800 brand new FYI).

Then 2015 users came out of the woodwork and were disappointed that their AMD GPU's are being throttled by either Apple (highly likely via EFI) or AMD. The M370x is a faster (by the numbers) GPU than the 750m. If it is being throttled there must be a reason.

If you're saying the GPU can't be pushed to it's potential under OS X then you're completely wrong. Load up DaVinci Resolve and run a debayer from RED 6k footage to 2k (Make sure to enable OpenCL/CUDA and watch your computer heat up). And this is under OS X not Windows.

Apple doesn't expose the maximum potential of the GPU like Windows does, anyway (Metal is supposed to change that) but to throttle the damn GPU from 800Mhz to 400Mhz under load is insane when in fact the previous generation GPU did not do that. Apple obviously cut some corners here and it's pretty self evident. They replied to one of the users in this thread and I'm super glad that happend and super glad that I this thread/my original call to try out a new GPU intensive process on your $2000+ investment made some difference. I hope Apple releases an EFI update to de-throttle the GPU and allow the AMD GPU to function normally. The 750m seems to be doing fine from my tests.

I don't think anyone in this thread bought a rMBP to play games. It's obviously a productive machine, but isn't watching movies/listening to music similar to playing games, anyway? I use it as my daily driver for work. I'm coming from Mac Pros and mobile is fine for me. It's just a rare occasion that there's a chance to play a game, a piece of entertainment that's as gratifying as a movie or a piece of music.

There are also plenty of other computers out there with the same CPU and same GPU and the same chipset.

I really don't see your argument as valid here. You're saying (just like I said, many others as well dating back to when Apple switched to Intel) that people shouldn't do GPU/processor intensive tasks on their rMBP, which is nuts. I use AE all the time and push this machine. It's a monster under the hood. Apple optimized it to keep it cool on idle but that doesn't mean that it won't stretch it's performance. The CPU/GPU temps/fans are all controlled by the EFI. If it can heat up and kick the fans up without freezing, then it means Apple already did a stress test in their labs and it's perfectly fine to push it - that means using pc games as well. It's just a PC motherboard inside, what's the big deal?

Also don't forget there are also OS X games in Steam, bit older ones, but still GPU intensive. There's Tomb Raider which is a game from 2014 I think, in the App Store. Rage (2013?), Hitman Absolution (2014?)....so how can you say the games there are 10 years old? Are you saying AAA games don't get ported to OS X at the same time their Windows counterparts do? Obviously...because OS X gaming is probably 0.5% of the market share. But that doesn't mean they can't release Fallout 4 right now and optimize it for OS X...
 
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Been playing Fallout 4 near maxed-out at 1080p under Windows 10 on my mid-2014 rMBP with the GeForce 750M. Gets hot and the fans running full tilt but I'm not concerned. Put it through far worse in 3D design college (hour long renders) and its still going strong.

I just invested in a P5 screwdriver so I can open it up and dust it out every few weeks and keep the airflow good.
 
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SDAVE, you are a paragon of civility.

I tried installing ATIccelarator II, but it seems it doesn't work in El Cap.
Well, at least I can try the benchmark.
The throttling is really easy to notice with the naked eye, so at least I can tell Tech Support to try it themselves.
 
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SDAVE, you are a paragon of civility.

I tried installing ATIccelarator II, but it seems it doesn't work in El Cap.
Well, at least I can try the benchmark.
The throttling is really easy to notice with the naked eye, so at least I can tell Tech Support to try it themselves.

:oops:

Can you try the Unigine Heaven running at a reasonable setting so you get smooth FPS's, then check the frame-rate at the upper right hand corner to see if it throttles down after a certain period. If you can reproduce this then you can document via a video capture and show it to Apple.

I realized from past experiences with Apple that if I can provide video proof that will save so many headaches. Just set your iPhone on something stable and shoot the screen and make sure the Framerate counter drop is visible.
 
People make PC gaming into this esoteric thing, like you're supposed to build a greybox PC with a motherboard from Asus/Gigagyte....or else! it's just a process that uses your GPU more than your CPU just like any other, the only difference is Windows has DirectX and 90% of PC games are written natively for Windows because it's more optimized for that.

I always wondered why this happens....it may be due to the "PC Master Race" thing going on online. It's crazy to me. All Intel based Macs use the same parts that are available on the PC side...the only difference is you don't get a gazillion extras like you do when you build a PC....the PC side is also going UEFI now so it's becoming somewhat of a closed system like Macs.

Also I don't think rMBPs are overpriced. The PCIe SSD, ForceTouch trackpad, display, Unibody chassis, and GPU (If they can de-throttle for Windows uers) are worth it alone.

You can find the 2014 rMBP with 2.5Ghz i7 Quad, 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD 15" for $1800 right now brand new. It's a nice machine for anything.
 
Been playing Fallout 4 near maxed-out at 1080p under Windows 10 on my mid-2014 rMBP with the GeForce 750M. Gets hot and the fans running full tilt but I'm not concerned. Put it through far worse in 3D design college (hour long renders) and its still going strong.

I just invested in a P5 screwdriver so I can open it up and dust it out every few weeks and keep the airflow good.

Indeed! I've gone days rendering stuff and CPU usage is at 100%, no problems. Just get Apple Care :)

I'm sure Apple does a lot of stress tests. My 2011 MBP (non Retina) was put through the grinder in my college years and I'm surprised it still functioned well. This thing's a beast for it's size.

The reason it gets really hot is because it's aluminum and aluminum transfers heat away from components better than plastic.
 
MB have never been gaming machines. What is tim going to respond to you. Oh buddy, I am sorry you cannot play games in your mb using windows...

The point is we paid a significant amount of money to get a dedicated graphics card, but when you try to use the card, it runs at half power.

Oh, and guys, I don't know what happened but I just had five minutes of unthrottled gaming. My GPU temperature went to 91 degrees, mostly stayed around 87 degrees... but the GPU clock stayed full power...

No idea what happened? Once I alt-tabbed to check GPU-Z and alt-tabbed back, the throttling started again (clock dips to 300 until GPU temperature gets back down to ~81 degrees).
 
The point is we paid a significant amount of money to get a dedicated graphics card, but when you try to use the card, it runs at half power.

Oh, and guys, I don't know what happened but I just had five minutes of unthrottled gaming. My GPU temperature went to 91 degrees, mostly stayed around 87 degrees... but the GPU clock stayed full power...

No idea what happened? Once I alt-tabbed to check GPU-Z and alt-tabbed back, the throttling started again (clock dips to 300 until GPU temperature gets back down to ~81 degrees).

It may be an amd driver issue?

Have you ever experienced this throttling in OS X ?
 
@OP: Yes, you can render things on your internal screen ( that's exactly how I'm using my setup - Nvidia has a technology called "Optimus" that helps you exactly with that - I guess AMD has something similar but I can't comment on it, haven't used AMD / ATI cards for quite a long time now; the down side of rendering stuff on the internal screen is that you'll have less bandwidth at your disposal which could mean worse performance - however, this can be improved by using an external monitor for rendering ).

After checking Akitio website a bit more, the following caught my attention:
The PCIe (x16) slot accepts half-length, full-height, double-width cards and provides a maximum of 25W. Replacing the card can be done without tools, simply by removing two hand tightening screws for the chassis and one for the card.

the specifications page states ( quite funny ): said:
Does NOT support graphics cards

Since I don't have any hands down experience with their enclosure, I can't really comment on it much but it doesn't seem to be a great choice for gaming. I'd look somewhere else...
 
Heard from Apple tech support today.
Sad to say it has lead nowhere.

They were mainly interested in determining wether the problem was with the software I was running or expected hardware behavior.
And the conclusion from their engineers?
Expected behavior.
Sadly they don't seem to understand the fact that the core of the GPU throttles itself.
-or more likely, they don't want to acknowledge it.

I've tried pointing out that it doesn't matter if you're running games or whatever, but it makes little difference.

I also tried asking if they could tell me if they are working on a fix down the line that makes the gpu throttle at higher temperatures, understandably, he did not know.

We ended the call with me asking if it would be possible to get a refund even if I'm well past the 14 day return period.
So I'm waiting to hear from them again.

Most disappointing.
 
Heard from Apple tech support today.
Sad to say it has lead nowhere.

They were mainly interested in determining wether the problem was with the software I was running or expected hardware behavior.
And the conclusion from their engineers?
Expected behavior.
Sadly they don't seem to understand the fact that the core of the GPU throttles itself.
-or more likely, they don't want to acknowledge it.

I've tried pointing out that it doesn't matter if you're running games or whatever, but it makes little difference.

I also tried asking if they could tell me if they are working on a fix down the line that makes the gpu throttle at higher temperatures, understandably, he did not know.

We ended the call with me asking if it would be possible to get a refund even if I'm well past the 14 day return period.
So I'm waiting to hear from them again.

Most disappointing.

At least you were able to talk to them. They may quietly update the EFI in the future.

That sucks, sorry to hear. You should try to escalate it to a higher engineer.
 
Heard from Apple tech support today.
Sad to say it has lead nowhere.

They were mainly interested in determining wether the problem was with the software I was running or expected hardware behavior.
And the conclusion from their engineers?
Expected behavior.

Lol... Definitely not expected behavior. That's like advertising a car with 300hp but whenever you go over 5mph, the horsepower drops to 150.

I'll reach out too, maybe them hearing it from multiple people will spark something. Probably not, but I'll try anyway. Keep us posted on the refund thing, that would be an annoying but reasonable option.

If they could just change the temperature it throttles at, the issue would be resolved. I don't understand why my system didn't throttle the other day.. It got way past 81 degrees yet ran full performance. Worked great!
 
Well, I sent off an email myself too. Also, last night I was playing a game for ~an hour (stuttering the whole time) and when I quit, I realized the GPU temp had been hovering at 67 degrees celsius the *entire* time, with the GPU clock at 300MHz... not even jumping up and down at all.
 
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