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Agreed.

Suffice to say, when I was an academic, a poorly written paper would not have induced warm feelings in me.
it's annoying because this is upper college level work and they should know better so either they don't or they don't care
Crown & Caliber, believe it or not.
unbelievable
am i wrong for assuming college students should know better
Apparently there’s a motion on redefining the usage of ‘then’ and ‘than’ too.
Do I hear a second?

It’s refreshing to read a thread pointing out spelling and grammar is important particularly in the workplace. We are becoming a nation* of imbecilic sounding college graduates...ones who can’t spell either. So I give two thumbs up to the op and a resounding boo to those who feel expecting reasonable language precision is merely pedantic.

*It’s not limited to the US, but it’s where I live and work and notice it.
'then' and 'than' is pretty easy to remember so i don't know how they will redefine it
 
it's annoying because this is upper college level work and they should know better so either they don't or they don't care

unbelievable

am i wrong for assuming college students should know better

'then' and 'than' is pretty easy to remember so i don't know how they will redefine it

I used to explicitly state in my syllabus that my class doesn’t include grammar but that grammar affects grades. That was followed by the building and room number for the Writers’ Center.

Each paper I assigned included what penalty I’d assign for, shall we say, “gross negligence” on that front. The first paper was more lenient and each became progressively more stringent. I forget how I framed it exactly but points would be docked. Not very much on the early essays but by the end, yeah. Give or take, on the first paper I’d mark grammar errors on each page; second paper I’d do that on the first page but pages thereafter would circle new offenses but give no further detail. And so on. I’d also provide pointers in early drafts so they had an idea what to look for if they bothered to proofread.

Confronting this Day One would get people on notice. Some would drop because I seemed tough. That made room for adding waitlisted students or, better still, leaving me with a more manageable class. Early on I also shared a “pro tip” I was taught by one of my better professors: “scrub the first page of errors s when they’re most obvious. If the writing is engaging enough and meeting the assignment’s basic goal then the professor is less likely to notice them later on once they’re in the flow.”

I also assigned regular journal entries and minor prompts. On those I stressed I didn’t care about grammar at all. On average, journal entries’ grammar improved over the semester. I took that as a positive indicator that habits were improving that might make life easier for professors further downstream.

Lest it seem unusually cruel, I was more lenient than I indicated. If a paper was well-written enough — whether with strong content, engaging voice (which means some creative grammar that’s not always “perfect”), etc.
I’d... well, sometimes even a professor doesn’t catch everything, so....

Also, for those who haven’t taught and who don’t appreciate the unpaid hours it takes to grade, the more time a professor has to waste on grammar the less time they can focus on the more complex and valuable aspects of writing. A semester could mean four or five essays, each with two to three drafts to assess mostly on mundane topics, mind you. Multiply that by 25 students per class with a load of three to five sections per semester...? With no job security, no benefits, etc. The least a student can do is learn that when spell check catches the word “definately” they shouldn’t choose the first option: “defiantly.” If I had a nickel for every time I encountered that! Or explaining that emoji aren’t acceptable. Yeah, that’s a thing.

I mean, maybe I wouldn’t mind if I didn’t have to waste so much time adjusting two-inch margins and triple spaced essays that insult my intelligence by trying to fake assignment lengths or waste it chasing plagiarism rampant in this “copy-paste” era. Poor grammar eats into the time needed to shore up critical thinking skills seemingly deprecated in secondary education.

Not taking grammar seriously by shrugging , smiling, and passing them along as if it won’t ultimately hurt them to do so is tantamount to malpractice. Of course, most people aren’t students; they’re molded by the students they once weren’t either more finely tuned or more lackadaisical. PRSI is a fine Petrie dish. Cluttered thoughts that pile on fallacies under a thick icing of sarcasm is rampant and ultimately leads to numbing bickering. That’s the eventual destination of undisciplined writing and discourse. Sure I’m amused by those reddit posts above but they make me sad. Somewhere along the line people gave up either teaching or maybe learning. Yes, language evolves and what was wrong a decade ago is often enough acceptable now, but making exceptions into rules is an excuse for laziness masked as “hot take” nonchalance.

That all said, I’m pretty certain this post has a few errors I won’t go back to check or fix. On the other hand, the few people here who got this far down my ramble probably didn’t mind them. That’s probably because I internalized that if I wanted to be understood I needed to be mindful as I laid out my thoughts. I also learned that those too impatient to be mindful of their own writing would likely have been indifferent enough to stop right around my (arguably correct) use of quotes around “gross negligence” above.
 
I used to explicitly state in my syllabus that my class doesn’t include grammar but that grammar affects grades. That was followed by the building and room number for the Writers’ Center.

Each paper I assigned included what penalty I’d assign for, shall we say, “gross negligence” on that front. The first paper was more lenient and each became progressively more stringent. I forget how I framed it exactly but points would be docked. Not very much on the early essays but by the end, yeah. Give or take, on the first paper I’d mark grammar errors on each page; second paper I’d do that on the first page but pages thereafter would circle new offenses but give no further detail. And so on. I’d also provide pointers in early drafts so they had an idea what to look for if they bothered to proofread.

Confronting this Day One would get people on notice. Some would drop because I seemed tough. That made room for adding waitlisted students or, better still, leaving me with a more manageable class. Early on I also shared a “pro tip” I was taught by one of my better professors: “scrub the first page of errors s when they’re most obvious. If the writing is engaging enough and meeting the assignment’s basic goal then the professor is less likely to notice them later on once they’re in the flow.”

I also assigned regular journal entries and minor prompts. On those I stressed I didn’t care about grammar at all. On average, journal entries’ grammar improved over the semester. I took that as a positive indicator that habits were improving that might make life easier for professors further downstream.

Lest it seem unusually cruel, I was more lenient than I indicated. If a paper was well-written enough — whether with strong content, engaging voice (which means some creative grammar that’s not always “perfect”), etc.
I’d... well, sometimes even a professor doesn’t catch everything, so....

Also, for those who haven’t taught and who don’t appreciate the unpaid hours it takes to grade, the more time a professor has to waste on grammar the less time they can focus on the more complex and valuable aspects of writing. A semester could mean four or five essays, each with two to three drafts to assess mostly on mundane topics, mind you. Multiply that by 25 students per class with a load of three to five sections per semester...? With no job security, no benefits, etc. The least a student can do is learn that when spell check catches the word “definately” they shouldn’t choose the first option: “defiantly.” If I had a nickel for every time I encountered that! Or explaining that emoji aren’t acceptable. Yeah, that’s a thing.

I mean, maybe I wouldn’t mind if I didn’t have to waste so much time adjusting two-inch margins and triple spaced essays that insult my intelligence by trying to fake assignment lengths or waste it chasing plagiarism rampant in this “copy-paste” era. Poor grammar eats into the time needed to shore up critical thinking skills seemingly deprecated in secondary education.

Not taking grammar seriously by shrugging , smiling, and passing them along as if it won’t ultimately hurt them to do so is tantamount to malpractice. Of course, most people aren’t students; they’re molded by the students they once weren’t either more finely tuned or more lackadaisical. PRSI is a fine Petrie dish. Cluttered thoughts that pile on fallacies under a thick icing of sarcasm is rampant and ultimately leads to numbing bickering. That’s the eventual destination of undisciplined writing and discourse. Sure I’m amused by those reddit posts above but they make me sad. Somewhere along the line people gave up either teaching or maybe learning. Yes, language evolves and what was wrong a decade ago is often enough acceptable now, but making exceptions into rules is an excuse for laziness masked as “hot take” nonchalance.

That all said, I’m pretty certain this post has a few errors I won’t go back to check or fix. On the other hand, the few people here who got this far down my ramble probably didn’t mind them. That’s probably because I internalized that if I wanted to be understood I needed to be mindful as I laid out my thoughts. I also learned that those too impatient to be mindful of their own writing would likely have been indifferent enough to stop right around my (arguably correct) use of quotes around “gross negligence” above.

Excellent post.

And, perhaps I am ever so partial to such things, but a well written post and one that is well argued, too.

(From someone who also used to toil - willingly - in the groves of academe, and loved it, but also found it infuriatingly frustrating at times).
 
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Language is not static, its constantly evolving, and I think people who focus so much on the minor pieces of grammar may very well miss the larger picture.
And some who don't wind up in prison.
[doublepost=1545156881][/doublepost]
The ivory towers of higher education have less impact on how language evolves then the common man altering the language in his day to day tasks.
You make a good case.
 
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I used to explicitly state in my syllabus that my class doesn’t include grammar but that grammar affects grades. That was followed by the building and room number for the Writers’ Center.

Each paper I assigned included what penalty I’d assign for, shall we say, “gross negligence” on that front. The first paper was more lenient and each became progressively more stringent. I forget how I framed it exactly but points would be docked. Not very much on the early essays but by the end, yeah. Give or take, on the first paper I’d mark grammar errors on each page; second paper I’d do that on the first page but pages thereafter would circle new offenses but give no further detail. And so on. I’d also provide pointers in early drafts so they had an idea what to look for if they bothered to proofread.

Confronting this Day One would get people on notice. Some would drop because I seemed tough. That made room for adding waitlisted students or, better still, leaving me with a more manageable class. Early on I also shared a “pro tip” I was taught by one of my better professors: “scrub the first page of errors s when they’re most obvious. If the writing is engaging enough and meeting the assignment’s basic goal then the professor is less likely to notice them later on once they’re in the flow.”

I also assigned regular journal entries and minor prompts. On those I stressed I didn’t care about grammar at all. On average, journal entries’ grammar improved over the semester. I took that as a positive indicator that habits were improving that might make life easier for professors further downstream.

Lest it seem unusually cruel, I was more lenient than I indicated. If a paper was well-written enough — whether with strong content, engaging voice (which means some creative grammar that’s not always “perfect”), etc.
I’d... well, sometimes even a professor doesn’t catch everything, so....

Also, for those who haven’t taught and who don’t appreciate the unpaid hours it takes to grade, the more time a professor has to waste on grammar the less time they can focus on the more complex and valuable aspects of writing. A semester could mean four or five essays, each with two to three drafts to assess mostly on mundane topics, mind you. Multiply that by 25 students per class with a load of three to five sections per semester...? With no job security, no benefits, etc. The least a student can do is learn that when spell check catches the word “definately” they shouldn’t choose the first option: “defiantly.” If I had a nickel for every time I encountered that! Or explaining that emoji aren’t acceptable. Yeah, that’s a thing.

I mean, maybe I wouldn’t mind if I didn’t have to waste so much time adjusting two-inch margins and triple spaced essays that insult my intelligence by trying to fake assignment lengths or waste it chasing plagiarism rampant in this “copy-paste” era. Poor grammar eats into the time needed to shore up critical thinking skills seemingly deprecated in secondary education.

Not taking grammar seriously by shrugging , smiling, and passing them along as if it won’t ultimately hurt them to do so is tantamount to malpractice. Of course, most people aren’t students; they’re molded by the students they once weren’t either more finely tuned or more lackadaisical. PRSI is a fine Petrie dish. Cluttered thoughts that pile on fallacies under a thick icing of sarcasm is rampant and ultimately leads to numbing bickering. That’s the eventual destination of undisciplined writing and discourse. Sure I’m amused by those reddit posts above but they make me sad. Somewhere along the line people gave up either teaching or maybe learning. Yes, language evolves and what was wrong a decade ago is often enough acceptable now, but making exceptions into rules is an excuse for laziness masked as “hot take” nonchalance.

That all said, I’m pretty certain this post has a few errors I won’t go back to check or fix. On the other hand, the few people here who got this far down my ramble probably didn’t mind them. That’s probably because I internalized that if I wanted to be understood I needed to be mindful as I laid out my thoughts. I also learned that those too impatient to be mindful of their own writing would likely have been indifferent enough to stop right around my (arguably correct) use of quotes around “gross negligence” above.
well written thanks
yes the unpaid hours grading papers isnt fun but it goes with the job
(From someone who also used to toil - willingly - in the groves of academe, and loved it, but also found it infuriatingly frustrating at times).
it really is especially in college level courses
No, not at all. I agree.
thanks just making sure
Through careless persistence
now i am curious
 
i just got an email from a student blaming software for their grammar errors and feel they shouldnt be held accountable
i dont even know how to reply to this
what happened to accountability or is that not taught anymore
 
Death beckons me in those circumstances, as well, I must admit.
Surely you meant to write "Death beckon's me in those circumstance's as well I must admit."

OK, so the comma jokes are getting old in this thread. But note the slight difference made by dropping Scepticalscribe's commas?

The problem I wrestle with of late (last 2 or 3 years) is that, particularly with conjunctions, my head has the correct word but my fingers type another one. For example, I always have to read over what I've written in case I've substituted "and" for "but." It only happens with short words.

I used to be a very fast and accurate typist, but if I type at speed now, I make mistake after mistake. I suppose it's in consequence of getting older and older, but I don't like it.
 
Surely you meant to write "Death beckon's me in those circumstance's as well I must admit."

OK, so the comma jokes are getting old in this thread. But note the slight difference made by dropping Scepticalscribe's commas?

The problem I wrestle with of late (last 2 or 3 years) is that, particularly with conjunctions, my head has the correct word but my fingers type another one. For example, I always have to read over what I've written in case I've substituted "and" for "but." It only happens with short words.

I used to be a very fast and accurate typist, but if I type at speed now, I make mistake after mistake. I suppose it's in consequence of getting older and older, but I don't like it.

I make mistakes, too, even with words that I know perfectly well how to spell, because my fingers no longer hit the keyboard in quite the correct sequence sometimes.

And then, there is auto-correct. A bane of my life.
 
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I looked at this thread a couple days ago, and am just now getting back to it. I believe it should be "the Smiths' [possession] and not "the Smith's [possession]." (At least in the USA.) Tell me why I'm wrong.
 
I looked at this thread a couple days ago, and am just now getting back to it. I believe it should be "the Smiths' [possession] and not "the Smith's [possession]." (At least in the USA.) Tell me why I'm wrong.

Q: What are the Smiths possessing?

A: Nothing. There are just multiple people in the household named Smith. Thus, "Happy Thanksgiving from the Smiths."
 
Q: What are the Smiths possessing?

A: Nothing. There are just multiple people in the household named Smith. Thus, "Happy Thanksgiving from the Smiths."
[possession] was just a placeholder for anything. Earlier in the thread, it was a turkey. I'm confident it should be "the Smiths' turkey" and not "the Smith's turkey."
 
I looked at this thread a couple days ago, and am just now getting back to it. I believe it should be "the Smiths' [possession] and not "the Smith's [possession]." (At least in the USA.) Tell me why I'm wrong.

Because the 'S is all you need to make something possessive. Smith is the noun. Think of a first name, like Steve. You wouldn't say Steves' turkey, that would mean there are more than one Steve and they all share the turkey. In this case, there is not more than one Smith, it is the Smith family, one thing. So its the Smith family's turkey or, for short, the Smith's turkey.
 
[possession] was just a placeholder for anything. Earlier in the thread, it was a turkey. I'm confident it should be "the Smiths' turkey" and not "the Smith's turkey."

The original post says he saw a Facebook post saying “Happy Thanksgiving from the Smith’s.” No mention of a turkey of any other possession.

Substitute “teachers,” “students,” “employees,” etc. and none of them get an apostrophe. Same thing. The Smiths are a family who share the same last name.
[doublepost=1545339476][/doublepost]
Because the 'S is all you need to make something possessive. Smith is the noun. Think of a first name, like Steve. You wouldn't say Steves' turkey, that would mean there are more than one Steve and they all share the turkey. In this case, there is not more than one Smith, it is the Smith family, one thing. So its the Smith family's turkey or, for short, the Smith's turkey.

Actually in that instance tobefirst is correct in that the a possession of a group has the apostrophe at the end. The Smiths’ turkey. The Smiths’ house. The word family is not implied in those instances, it is literally a group of Smiths.

But that is not what was stated in the first post of this thread.
 
As has been mentioned already by Molly, the Smith family is a group of people all bearing the last name of Smith. Therefore, "The Smiths wish you a Merry Christmas" is correct. Let's look at it another way:

"From Our House to Yours..... The Smiths wish you a Merry Christmas!"

Down the street a neighbor says to another neighbor, "what do you think about the Smiths' Christmas decorations this year?"

The response: "The Smith family always has such great holiday decorations everywhere around their house!"


If we're talking about just one member of the Smith family, say John, that's when things change a bit. "John Smith's house is beautifully decorated this year, isn't it?"

"Yes, but Mary Smith's car needs a good washing!" "The younger Smiths' toys are littering the lawn, too, not a good look."

 
The original post says he saw a Facebook post saying “Happy Thanksgiving from the Smith’s.” No mention of a turkey of any other possession.

Substitute “teachers,” “students,” “employees,” etc. and none of them get an apostrophe. Same thing. The Smiths are a family who share the same last name.
[doublepost=1545339476][/doublepost]

Actually in that instance tobefirst is correct in that the a possession of a group has the apostrophe at the end. The Smiths’ turkey. The Smiths’ house. The word family is not implied in those instances, it is literally a group of Smiths.

But that is not what was stated in the first post of this thread.
Well.....you’re right and I’m completely wrong. No offense but i didn’t believe you and googled it and found a bunch of websites that said you put the s’s after a family name.
 
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Actually in that instance tobefirst is correct in that the a possession of a group has the apostrophe at the end. The Smiths’ turkey. The Smiths’ house. The word family is not implied in those instances, it is literally a group of Smiths.

But that is not what was stated in the first post of this thread.
This is what I was trying to say, but did a poor job of, since I didn’t quote the posts I was looking at (which were later in the thread). Thank you for explaining it better than I did.
 
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And it’s the same with “Jones”, except that the plural is formed with “-es”. Mr Jones has a turkey: Mr Jones’s turkey. His family are the Joneses; theirs is the Joneses’ turkey. “Joneses”, “Jones’s” and “Joneses’” are all pronounced the same. I probably peeve about this because my first name and surname both end in “-s”.
 
And it’s the same with “Jones”, except that the plural is formed with “-es”. Mr Jones has a turkey: Mr Jones’s turkey. His family are the Joneses; theirs is the Joneses’ turkey. “Joneses”, “Jones’s” and “Joneses’” are all pronounced the same. I probably peeve about this because my first name and surname both end in “-s”.

The possesive of a word ending in -s is just xxxs' with no plurality. The Jones' house. Thomas' dog.
 
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