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Rosetta May Be Removed From M1 Macs in Some Regions on macOS 11.3
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Every hypervisor for X86 has to also be able to decode the X86 CISC instructions, and emulate most of them.
Nobody sells a "standalone instruction set emulator", people sell hypervisors.
Are you telling me every KVM user is subject to intel patent infringement?
Can you please point out a specific patent that is violated by KVM, XEN, VMware, Wind River, GreenHills or QNX?
Please elaborate where I may have misunderstood you. What I red so far, it makes no sense to me
Hypervisor != Emulator.
There’s a reason why Parallels and VMWare are much faster than QEMU.
Hint: it’s the same reason why Docker (preview) still recommends arm64 images to run on M1, and why it uses QEMU for x86_64 images.
We started with the claim that emulating the ISA of intel is Patent protected. Every x86 Hypervisor that I know of requires decoding of the x86 instructions, and in some cases needs to emulate them. This is not the case for ARM V8-A. Hence my question how x86 Hypervisors are handling this.
I do know the difference between a container runtime (like docker) and bare metal (type 1) virtualization, and a type 2 hypervisor such as Parallels...
I'm not going to do pro-bono work for Intel to dig up their patent portfolio and show that filing x, y, and z can be used against Rosetta 2 because it emulates instructions a, b, and c in which Intel has covered its "emulation rights" in the patent(s) that were granted in territories p, q, and r.
If you're doing such pro-bono work for Apple, that's your call. But please direct the hostilities towards Intel.
All I'm saying in this thread is "All hands, ... brace for impact!"
Can I be negatively affected by Rosetta being taken out? Sure, probably. But my Apple ID is registered in a small, albeit relatively rich, country that not many other countries care about.
First, x86-64, if patented, would be patented by AMD, not Intel. And given when we invented it, the patents would be pretty close to expired.
Second, it is not too likely that Intel’s patents could touch on emulation. Someone earlier in this thread posted a patent *application* they thought was relevant, but the claims don’t seem to be able to apply to emulation because they require that results be stored in the same ”architecture register” that is specified in the instruction, which would of course not be the case in emulation (the actual storage would happen in a native register, not in a register belonging to the architecture being emulated).
Intel’s famous enhanced fused multiply-add patent also doesn’t look too promising. (7,499,962). The claims all require “exponent units” which would likely be limited to actual hardware for handling exponents, and not a general purpose processor pretending to do the steps, especially since each requires specific hardware subunits.
Their best bet is probably their multimedia instructions, but rosetta doesn’t emulate them.
Notably, every time Intel or commentators come along and claim there is a patent problem with emulating x86-64, they never list the patents. It would make sense to do so, to perhaps be able to argue that any infringement that occurs after that is intentional. Yet they don’t.
Pretty sure Intel does not require your pro Bono work. Last time I met Intel legal team the sky got dark from all the suits getting in...
You are defending a position, and react snarky when asked to proof it.
You could also dig up the code in one of the open source x86 hypervisors and proof me wrong... but that would not work out the way you expect!
I stand by my claim: According to your claim, all x86 HV would habe Patent issues!
My Mac is still on Mojave, I have no interest in being Locked to 64bit ARM..... gonna take 5 years for adoption to be where it needs to. However I've upgraded to a Windows machine now, I was going to get a Mac but not after Catalina and the M1 chip move. Windows is okay anyways, my only problem is for some reason Apple are the only ones capable of making good screens.
They spooked Microsoft though and I'm sure Microsoft has good lawyers or they just punted it.
Apple may have taken the approach of doing it without permission for now and then work out any potential legal issues afterwards.
Apple could always buy AMD. Then they'd get to compete against Intel on ARM and x86-64 and GPUs and they'd have a formidable chip development bench. Apple could even buy Intel.
It is possible that it's a bluff by Intel as well. Or Apple may be negotiating royalty payments. Apple dropped Rosetta after two years? Any royalty system would only last a short period of time.
? Microsoft has x86-64 emulation for ARM now - added it to their developer channel a couple of months ago, unsure if it has progressed channels since. They just took awhile to develop it from the original WoA machines. There’s nothing to suggest anyone is breaking anyone’s patents so far. The only patents I know of that Intel owns are special instructions which Rosetta 2 does not translate otherwise AMD owns x64 patents and those are set to expire and I don’t believe cover emulation/translation.
The original Rosetta lasted 5 years.
This is untrue. According to Steve Jobs himself, the decision to transition to Intel was because the PowerPC architecture was a dead end:
“Because we want to make the best computers for our customers looking forward. Now, I stood up here two years ago in front of you and I promised you [a 3 GHz Power Macintosh G5], and we haven't been able to deliver that to you yet. I think a lot of you would like a G5 in your PowerBook and we haven't been able to deliver that to you yet. But these aren't even the most important reasons. The most important reasons are that as we look ahead, though we may have great products right now, and we've got some great PowerPC product
The ability to run Windows via Bootcamp was a nice bonus.
FYI: I’m running Windows 10 on my M1 MacBook Air via Parallels and the Microsoft preview of Windows 10 for ARM.
Eh no, adoption will be pretty fast since we have many generations of powerful phones and tablets.
When they changed from IBM to Intel, it was very abrupt and there weren't any products they had worked on previously with the new architecture.
Apple and third party devs have already more than a decade of ARM apps in experience, why do you think Logic Pro got ported so quickly and some plugin devs such as Fabfilter already have an M1 native version out?
Was swifting through some of the thread but didn’t see anything related to a potential subject on the matter... what’s happening in the end? Is Rosetta really being discontinued out of the blue?
You use them in a professional matter these two?
Really nice to hear that 3D and compositing apps are real world useable on M1’s... I might seem myself jumping to the M1s bandwagon sooner than later.
You use them in a professional matter these two?
According to a user on one of our forums and according to Apple, this will fix the 11.3 “Open in Rosetta” disappearance:
- Go to Finder
- Select Go > Go to Folder
- Paste the following: /System/Library/CoreServices/
- Find Rosetta 2 Updater and double-click
- Click “Install”
- Uninstall Logic Pro from the Apps folder by dragging it to the trash bin and emptying it
- Re-install Logic Pro via the App Store
- Go to Finder > Applications > Logic Pro X
- Right Click Get info and the “Open in Rosetta” option should be back.
Yeah I’ve been testing them both and After Effects is really good. The only issue with Cinema is most third plugins don’t work at all but hopefully, given how quickly Maxon released an M1 version of C4D, they’ll release updated versions soon. I still wouldn’t be comfortable ditching my iMac or PC for an M1 for a while though
I am not sure whether they have now removed Rosetta but I have found since the last update my M1 Mac Mini is now running a lot slower. It takes just as long for Word and Excel to load as it did with my old iMac. When I got the M1 Mini Word and Excel loaded in ultra quick but not now. Something has been done.
Having researched some more I think my problem is caused by Google Chrome. I was asked to install it for an upcoming meeting this week where the participate.lookback software is needed and looking back the slowness started thereafter. Not only that messages saying I was low on resources when I had little running have been appearing. It seems Google Chrome installs its tentacles like Covid does and I need to remove it and all its branches in the Library folder. I’ll use Participate’s app on my iPad instead.
Did you install the M1 or intel version of chrome? (Not that i endorse either. Just curious.)
Got this after updating to macOS 11.3.1.
After several minutes of panic, seeing that the WWW wasn't flooded with similar reports, I rebooted and the next legacy app launch prompted me to reinstall Rosetta2. #facepalm but leaving this here in case others get the same bug.
After several minutes of panic, seeing that the WWW wasn't flooded with similar reports, I rebooted and the next legacy app launch prompted me to reinstall Rosetta2. #facepalm but leaving this here in case others get the same bug.
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Then you've got bigger issues as an Expat in mainland China I can safely say Rosetta 2 is alive and kicking...
Q-6