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Chundles said:
AppleInsider has an interesting article, iTunes is now universal, rosetta supports the velocity engine etc. it's all here...

New Article

Adding Altivec support to Rosetta would be absolute nonsense and counter-productive.

Yes, there are cases where Altivec code on a G4 can run ten times faster than non-Altivec code, because it does ten times more work in the same time. However, Altivec code is ten times harder to emulate. If your G3 code takes ten seconds, then Rosetta might take ten seconds on a more powerfull Pentium processor to emulate that code. Altivec code might do the same task in one second, but then Rosetta will take ten seconds to emulate that code. What is gained? Nothing.

But that is just the best possible situation. Sometimes you have code that isn't very suitable for Altivec. Then some genius of a programmer comes up with a method using Altivec, that actually does five times more work, but does it ten times faster on a G4 for a net gain of fifty percent. When this kind of code were to run under Rosetta with Altivec emulator, you would really lose out: It still does five times more work, but because emulating Altivec is so much harder, it actually takes five times longer than emulating equivalent G3 code would do!

As an example: The simple loop

for (i = 0; i < 16; ++i) dst = table [src ];

looking up sixteen one-byte values from a 256 byte lookup table would usually be done with sixteen load and sixteen store instructions, and that is what both G3 code and Rosetta-emulated G3 code would do.

Someone at Apple found an ingenious way to do the same thing with eight vector permute instructions, plus about twelve other vector instructions. The result runs twice as fast on a G4 with Altivec. However, emulating a _single_ vector permute instruction needs sixteen loads and stores. Emulating eight of them takes 128 loads and stores, plus the emulation of all the other instructions. As a result, emulated Altivec code would run at least ten times slower in this case than emulated G3 code!

As a reminder from history: Most people think the Classic environment on MacOS X emulates an ancient 68040 processor. It doesn't. It emulates the even more ancient 68020 processor. Emulating a more powerful processor doesn't gain anything, because it takes longer to emulate.
 
gnasher729 said:
Sometimes you have code that isn't very suitable for Altivec. Then some genius of a programmer comes up with a method using Altivec, that actually does five times more work, but does it ten times faster on a G4 for a net gain of fifty percent. When this kind of code were to run under Rosetta with Altivec emulator, you would really lose out
I assume some vector code would emulate quite well, others wouldn't.

There is a check box on universal binaries (apparently) to force them to load in PPC mode. I wonder if there'll now be a checkbox to choose G3 vs G4 emulation?
 
Emulation of the Emulation

So now I could run a 68 k emulated version of Photoshop 3, Netscape 3, Filemaker 3 or Eudora on an emulated PPC running on an Intel machine.

68K (CISC) -> PPC (RISC) -> x86 ( CISC )

Thats the ultimate geek's dream... 3 Processor architectures, two Mac OS versions ( classic and OS X ), plus linux and Windows. All in one machine!
 
gnasher729 said:
Adding Altivec support to Rosetta would be absolute nonsense and counter-productive.

It would allow some programs that otherwise wouldn't run at all, to run. That's not nonsensical or counter-productive. Sure, they wouldn't run at amazing speeds.

As a reminder from history: Most people think the Classic environment on MacOS X emulates an ancient 68040 processor. It doesn't.

Right--it's not a 680x0 emulator at all. It allows OS 9 to boot and run under OS X, nothing more. (Though OS 9 does have a 68020 emulator in it, yeah....)

--Eric
 
Eric5h5 said:
It would allow some programs that otherwise wouldn't run at all, to run. That's not nonsensical or counter-productive. Sure, they wouldn't run at amazing speeds... It allows OS 9 to boot and run under OS X, nothing more. (Though OS 9 does have a 68020 emulator in it, yeah....)

This is good. We need continued support for Classic for old legacy programs. They don't need to run particularly fast, they just need to run so we can continue to get access to legacy data. Most of these older programs for which there are no updates were made back when processors were measured in 10's or 100 MHz, not GHz on 680x0 processors. They were slow back then.

The problem is there is no way to update the programs in many cases since the programmers and companies who made them are long gone. Yet, a lot of people still need access to their older data which includes company payrolls, accounting data, customer databases, documents, books, magazines, etc. Our small business has Gigabytes of data that is only accessible via legacy programs under Classic. There are a lot of other businesses out there, as well as individuals, in the same bind.

It will serve Apple well to continue support for Classic even if it were to not include support for the Altivec in the G4 because they will sell more hardware and more system software upgrades down the road. The fact that they appear to be supporting the G4 fully is a nice bonus for compatibility. This is not a small problem. Legacy data and software is a huge issue, a monster under the bed that some people are just realizing could be a real gotcha.
 
madmaxmedia said:
Yes, that's what we were all saying. Or not.

I didn't know this was about idealism and religion, I thought it was simply about great computers. And if it is religious, aren't you being blasphemous in your statements about the Steve-ness?

When the rumor was first reported, believe it or not there were plenty of people who were hoping it would become true.

x86 is an ugly monstrosity. While nearly every company does some dodgey things, Intel is especially bad. Their business pratices are plain wrong (AMD lawsuit). They designed an entire CPU architecture around marketing a big number. If it really was about great computers then you guys would refuse to use something as disgusting as x86. Steve has lost the idealism that got Apple to where it is now. And you guys have too. Apple was always something more, never settled for the bog standards of the x86 world. But obviously raw ugly praticality has gotten the better of Apple and you guys.
 
Classic is ALREADY GONE.. No G5s run it out of the box, and no Intels will either.

pubwvj said:
I hope they extend support for Classic. There are a lot of legacy programs many businesses and individuals are still using and need. There are no upgrade paths for most of these programs. Apple's already done the hard work of supporting Classic, extending it to MacIntel is easy and it will gain them continued customer loyalty. This is a long term issue.

This is kind of strange.. but if someone's gonna take the time to complain about losing Classic, then could they also take the time to list exactly what legacy programs have no OS X counterparts or upgrades? The list can't be very long nor terribly destinguished for the average user's tastes since Apple hasn't even made a Mac that can boot System 9 since the DDR iMac G4 and Aluminum Books came out. On all systems since, classic support is reduced to software emulation only under OS X which loses a bit of compatibility compared to being able to natively boot System 9 and isn't supported by Apple unless you seperately purchase System 9 software because new Macs don't ship with System 9 anymore. Classic was officially killed off as of the introduction of the G5, as Apple obviously didn't want to bother with the major nuissance of rewriting it for interfacing with 64-bit hardware. If they didn't want it on G5s, they won't care for it on Intel either is the logic that works here.

Classic was nice during the transitional period from OS 9 to OS X while many major developers were lazy or slow about rewriting and carbonizing their apps, but it's no longer really that helpful. Classic on Intel would require much re-engineering of the translation setup (because memory addressing (among other hardware differences possible) for Intel is entirely different from OS X on PPC. At least OS X for PPC on a G3/G4 would not create a big problem for running most classic apps as both early OSX and Classic programs were designed to understand the rules and limits of memory handling and addressing on a 32-bit PPC system. When the 64-bit G5 came out, Apple expressed its desire to move on from Classic and a quite acknowledgement that most if not all major applications important to 95% of its customerbase have already been recoded for OS X native status by not hacking Classic again to run on a 64-bit PPC system.

It shouldn't even be an issue for anyone who is resourceful at all to still run their classic apps. If Classic REALLY bothers someone as an important feature, they can keep their legacy Mac to run that specific app.. or how about using one of many excellent emulators freely available for Intel code to emulate classic mac systems? Apple is not the only company that can write an effective emulator for classic applications. They simply wrote the best one ever for PPC and worked it more seamlessly into the OS for more convenient side-by-side running with native apps. Myself, I would rather not have any buggy bomb-baiting pre-X crap on my Macs as I consider them a reliability and a security problem. I already stripped Classic mode off of all my system 9 boot capable Macs a year ago just to free up extra drive space and lessen folder clutter. :)

Classic is already 5.95 feet under.. The rest will settle down in time.
 
Xapplimatic said:
This is kind of strange...Myself, I would rather not have any buggy bomb-baiting pre-X crap on my Macs as I consider them a reliability and a security problem.

And the beauty is you don't have to have it on your Mac. Just don't install Classic. But it should be there for people who need it. It is amazing how threatened people like you are by something that won't hurt you but will help other people. Apple should continue to support legacy applications and that includes Classic.
 
Tilmitt said:
x86 is an ugly monstrosity. While nearly every company does some dodgey things, Intel is especially bad. Their business pratices are plain wrong...

Yes, I agree - however the issue is not here or there since Apple has made a choice to transition to x86. Personally I detest having to design hardware with Intel's processor family or having to program on it.

What matters most is that the Macintosh systems retain their reliability and ease of use and continue to run the programs we need, including legacy applications under Classic. Backwards compatibility is critical. If Apple abandon's that then they lose reasons to bother staying with the Mac and make people consider other options like Windows, Unix, Linux, etc.

From the latest things I've seen it looks like Apple may be backing off their stance of abandoning support for Classic. This would be really good for user of legacy applications and for Apple as it will mean more sales for them. I would not be surprised if what they do is make the standard install not support Classic and then maintain Classic as an option for those who need it. This is the path they have been going down and it makes sense.
 
Xapplimatic said:
This is kind of strange.. but if someone's gonna take the time to complain about losing Classic, then could they also take the time to list exactly what legacy programs have no OS X counterparts or upgrades?

I think if anyone here had such a critical legacy app, they would have named it. I think most people here are more or less speculating that such a need exists, and that there are people running critical, irreplacable Classic apps.

I do have some Winnie the Pooh games for my daughter that run under Classic, does that count? ;)

I do run across some articles on the web about people that still boot up older Macs in OS 9 for this or that application (typically an old version of XPress or other design app.) But you are right in pointing out that these legacy Macs will still be around and be perfectly viable for such needs.

And then if you stretch things out another 3 to 5 years, I would think those apps will be so hopelessly outdated that whatever benefit compels people to continue using them now, will probably not be worth it anymore (at least for 99.95% of Mac users...)
 
Xapplimatic said:
On all systems since, classic support is reduced to software emulation only under OS X which loses a bit of compatibility compared to being able to natively boot System 9 and isn't supported by Apple unless you seperately purchase System 9 software because new Macs don't ship with System 9 anymore. Classic was officially killed off as of the introduction of the G5, as Apple obviously didn't want to bother with the major nuissance of rewriting it for interfacing with 64-bit hardware.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. Why is there so much misinformation on Classic, especially since it's so easily disproven? New Macs still come with Classic, they still run Classic, nothing has changed. Certainly my dual 2.5 G5 came with a Classic install CD ("Additional software & Apple hardware test") and it runs it just fine. I happen to know that the same is true for the newer dual 2.7 G5 machines as well. Nobody needs to purchase OS 9 separately. 64-bit is irrelevant in this case...there are G4 Macs which don't boot into Classic directly either (iMac, etc.). It's a matter of not wanting to write drivers for newer graphics cards and other new hardware, not 64-bit anything.

Repeat: G5s run Classic fine, they come with Classic, Apple never said anything about G5s not running Classic, it's still supported as far as it goes. However, sure, Apple would like to dump Classic, and are using the x86 transition as a good excuse as any to do it.

Myself, I would rather not have any buggy bomb-baiting pre-X crap on my Macs as I consider them a reliability and a security problem.

That's a bit silly...Classic runs in a sandbox and doesn't affect OS X. When it crashes (not "if", "when" ;) ), you just kill it and start it again. I don't care for OS 9 myself, but all it does is take up a few megabytes of disc space and doesn't hurt anyone who doesn't want it.

--Eric
 
God... this thread's already off topic.
I congratulate anyone who is excited to buy $5000 worth of computer to put classic on it, your money has outgrown your brain.
Old OS--->Old Computer.... It's like people buying PS2s just to put PS1 games on...
Wouldn't it be cheaper for the classic "legacy" apps to run on some old, (anything newer than a yr 2001 computer would be a big improvement) box linked with a KVM switch for when they want to use osx, if they ever do?
Technology is like a train. If you're not moving with it, you're slowing it down. (Okay, maybe it' wasn't a great analogy :eek: )
 
epepper9 said:
God... this thread's already off topic.
I congratulate anyone who is excited to buy $5000 worth of computer to put classic on it, your money has outgrown your brain.

That's a useless comment. Nobody buys a loaded Power Mac
just to run Classic. It's there as an extra, not as a core feature.

Old OS--->Old Computer.... It's like people buying PS2s just to put PS1 games on...

Who does that? Plenty of people play PS2 and PS1 games on their PS2s however. That's the entire point of backwards compatibility! Hello?

Wouldn't it be cheaper for the classic "legacy" apps to run on some old, (anything newer than a yr 2001 computer would be a big improvement) box linked with a KVM switch for when they want to use osx, if they ever do?

Let's see. Two computers--one for OS9 and one for OSX--plus KVM switch, vs. one computer with Classic. Er, guess what, ONE computer is a lot cheaper! And simpler.

Technology is like a train. If you're not moving with it, you're slowing it down. (Okay, maybe it' wasn't a great analogy :eek: )

You're right, it was pretty bad. So far, none of the objections to Classic I've seen make any sense at all. I consider OS X a vast improvement over OS 9 in almost all areas, but it's better to have Classic than not have it. It's not like it hurts anything or costs anything. It's there to give people who want it an option they wouldn't otherwise have, and other people can ignore it. It's not like Windows backwards compatibility, which drags the whole OS down, because Classic is a sandbox and separate from OS X.

--Eric
 
This application is compatible with the Rosetta Stone language sets without any conversion needed. Unfortunately it seems some of the audio files from Rosetta Stone are not perfect. They play fine on the PC, but the PSP audio libraries are not able to play some without distortion. Copy your Language Set lessons to the Language directory in the RosettaShard installation folder. If your Language Set has much distortion, it will need to be repaired.
 
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