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69Mustang

macrumors 604
Jan 7, 2014
7,895
15,043
In between a rock and a hard place
If it were that simple, everyone could do it.
Pretty much any OEM can do it, some already are, and from the looks of things more are going to join the fray. This tech is just the latest differentiator manufacturers are using to distinguish themselves from the others. Ironically, with all of them doing the same thing, they're just becoming more homogenized commodities.
 

Baymowe335

Suspended
Oct 6, 2017
6,640
12,451
Not in a world so stupidly locked behind IP patents.
And not in a world where technology is meaningless without proper implementation and software.

Remember, all the iPhone parts existed before the iPhone.

It’s like thinking having some butter, scallops, herbs, and cream in your refrigerator means you’re going to cook it like Gordon Ramsay.
 

NT1440

macrumors G5
May 18, 2008
14,670
21,082
And not in a world where technology is meaningless without proper implementation and software.

Remember, all the iPhone parts existed before the iPhone.

It’s like thinking having some butter, scallops, herbs, and cream in your refrigerator means you’re going to cook it like Gordon Ramsay.
And all of it was developed by defense research dollars before being commercialized by private companies. Personally I don’t like public funding being taken away from the public only to be resold to us privately. IP nonsense has been an impediment to the public good while serving corporate interests. Look at the COVID vaccines as an example of when these rules should absolutely be jettisoned.

What I’m getting at is it’s absurd that entire camera systems can’t be built unless you pay Samsung just because they *bought* a patent on something that they had no hand in developing. This applies to all major industries.
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,491
Oh so now periscope zooms are cool? What's next? 120hz screens????

Your comparison probably wouldn’t be as relevant to the ‘average’ consumer (Average meaning, non-techies). When you look at popularity, it’s always all about the camera, that’s Apple‘s main marketing point for the iPhone every year. As much as 120 HZ displays would be appreciated for the fluidity, that probably means nothing for the average consumer when the The camera is probably one of the main reasons why consumers upgrade.
 
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Morgenland

macrumors 65816
May 28, 2009
1,476
2,204
Europe
scr.png


Apple should urgently follow this example. If a friend has this camera, I would look sadly at my iPhone. I do not like that at all! And we know: This Leica optics is the very best...
Of course, this is only possible if the depth in the optical area is 9mm (vs. 7.4mm iPhone 12 Pro Max). But who would mind in the Pro model?

For me this is a dangerous attack on Apple, let's hope that Apple will follow suit soon.

On the other hand, Apple is currently unsurpassed with its light sensitivity and ultra-fast image optimization.
And a large light-sensitive sensor is not compatible with the 'Persicope', because otherwise the iPhone would become thicker again due to the large sensor. It's exciting to see what compromise Apple will choose.

z.png
[source: Austin Mann]
 
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phenste

macrumors 6502a
Sep 16, 2012
645
1,782
If you really enjoy nature photography then spend the money on a real camera if you possibly can. These phone cameras are absolutely fantastic - *for what they are* - but they really are no true substitute for a good DSLR, and prices on those aren't bad at all anymore.

For one thing, a smaller number of 'good pixels' is better than a larger number of 'crappy pixels' by a long shot. And that's just one advantage. Phones have to do a LOT of pixel-massaging software trickery to get the results they get, so while they are great for a lot of things, if you want full control that may be a reason for getting a real camera. Here are a few shots from my truly ancient Minolta 5.1MP DSLR (and it wasn't even an especially high-end; no full-size sensor or even interchangeable lenses, but it did produce nice results):

Those are some beautiful shots! I’ve always been a believer in the “less good pixels > more crappy pixels” argument—to that end, it’s always made me happy that Apple has been conservative with megapixels relative to other smartphones (looking at you, Samsung). I think I still have my mother’s ~15yo Canon around somewhere; another thing we get around here is beautiful winters, and given things probably won’t let up till the season is through, that could be something to get into!

This won’t launch until 2022 so you can still get two solid years out of your new 12 Pro Max and then upgrade it to the 13 (if next year is 12S) or 14 (if they just go right to 13 next year).

Ahh, my god, 2020 has destroyed my perception of time—didn’t even put together that 2022 is indeed two entire years from now. That’ll be a fantastic upgrade, going from a 12 Pro Max to a 13/14/whatever the hell they call it. I always wonder when they’ll just start calling it “iPhone” a la Macs and iPads…but clear generational differentiation is important in that one category, I guess.
 

johnmarki

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2020
295
786
This is starting to make more sense if you consider the early rumors in 2020 of an iPhone in the research stage with massive camera improvements and specs. Now if its actually going to happen in 2022 seems like a safer bet rumor-wise than for 2021.
 

DrV

macrumors 6502
Sep 25, 2007
271
506
Northern Europe
Cameras obey the laws of physics. In this case the specific phenomenon is called diffraction, and the diffraction limit applies here.

For example, the 5x telephoto lens of Samsung Galaxy Note20 Ultra carries the following specs:

  • Resolution: 12 MP (4000 x 3000, I guess)
  • Equivalent focal length: 120 mm
  • Aperture number: f/3
  • Pixel size: 1.0 um
The physical size of the sensor element is 4.0 x 3.0 mm (5.0 mm diagonal by Mr. Pythagoras). This enables us to calculate the real focal length, which is 5.0 mm / 43.3 mm x 120 mm = 13.9 mm (43.3 mm is the full frame diagonal to which the "equivalent" refers).

Now that we have some numbers, let's get back to the diffraction limit. A point light source (infinitely small) correctly focused produces a non-pointlike spot on the camera ("Airy disc"). The size of this spot is roughly d = 2 x 1.22 x wavelength x (aperture number), in this case 2 x 1.22 x 0.5 um x 3 = 3.7 um for green light. Smallest spot of light on the sensor is thus almost 4x4 pixels! The image on the sensor is inevitably soft due to the laws of physics, even though the camera signal processing works really hard to make it look sharper.

Why not make the aperture number smaller? Well... The light accepting area of the lens is determined by the focal length and aperture number. In this case 13.9 mm / 3 = 4.0 mm, which is actually a very large lens for a mobile phone.

How about making the focal length longer? That would increase the relative magnification. Unfortunately, we'd still bump our head into diffraction. Doubling the focal length without changing the lens diameter doubles the aperture number. Then we would have even softer image on our camera element, and the only thing we would have achieved is smaller image area.

Larger sensor? No help here. It turns out that if the physical aperture of the lens is kept constant, the maximum angular resolution is the same. For a 4-mm lens the angular resolution is approximately 1.22 x 0.5 um / 4 mm ≈ 0.00015 rad ≈ 0.0088° ≈ 0.5'. (By the way, normal visual acuity for humans is 1.0', and some individuals may achieve 0.5' resolution.) So, the system is diffraction limited, and that is the end of the road.

I doubt 10x would bring any significant improvement even with today's AI image processing, but it would certainly limit the image area. Unless, of course, someone can really make the lens bigger and still squeeze the optical path into a mobile phone. Not easy.

And just for reference: I took the specifications of an inexpensive (one quarter of an iPhone 12PM) superzoom compact camera, Panasonic FZ82. Its maximum focal length is 215 mm (1200 mm equivalent), and the aperture number is 5.9 at that zoom. Thus, the physical aperture is 215 mm / 5.9 ≈ 36 mm and the diffraction-limited resolution would be 0.06'. Almost tenfold aperture (36 mm vs 4 mm), and tenfold zoom reach (1200 mm equivalent vs. 120 mm equivalent).

(Yes, I am cutting a few corners here. I suspect the lens used by Panasonic is not quite diffraction limited, but by the sample images it is not much worse.)
 
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DrV

macrumors 6502
Sep 25, 2007
271
506
Northern Europe
I'm likely missing something here, but I haven't once wished for better zoom from my iPhone.
Outdoors.

At least for me the real use case for longer zooms is nature photography. Like the very beautiful red fox who trotted before me day before yesterday. It did not want to let me close enough to use the portrait mode.

But, yes, I know I am not being realistic here. Too little light, too little magnification. And that is not something that can be fixed easily. I'll either have to run with my DSLR or just use my eyes to enjoy the little (and bigger) creatures whose paths cross mine.
 

Yojimbo007

macrumors 6502a
Jun 13, 2012
693
576
I cant understand why Apple has allowed itself to fall behind in the optical zoom technology to this extent..when camera function has been an absolute top priority for the company.
I hope we see a 10x or even better optical zoom solution in the next iteration of iphone not 2 years down the line.. competition is not standing still or sleeping !!
 
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Daum

macrumors regular
Apr 18, 2015
191
198
Your comparison probably wouldn’t be as relevant to the ‘average’ consumer (Average meaning, non-techies). When you look at popularity, it’s always all about the camera, that’s Apple‘s main marketing point for the iPhone every year. As much as 120 HZ displays would be appreciated for the fluidity, that probably means nothing for the average consumer when the The camera is probably one of the main reasons why consumers upgrade.
Oh I totally get it. The "normies" don't care. In fact I usually recommend iphones to all my non tech friends because they are easy to to use. I'm talking to the people in these forums who dismiss features from other brands saying "it's not needed" but lose their minds when Apple does it.
 

dalestrauss

macrumors regular
Sep 1, 2013
181
203
Midland, TX
I'm likely missing something here, but I haven't once wished for better zoom from my iPhone.
That's because you've never had it in an Apple product, and you have been well trained to not miss whatever Apple chooses not to release, until they deign to release it, then you will be all in like the rest of us. The optical zoom on the Note 20 Ultra is amazing for bringing in distant details.
 

PsykX

macrumors 68020
Sep 16, 2006
2,399
3,153
Nobody currently can do better than 10x optical zoom. You are thinking of digital zoom
After reading a little bit more about how Samsungs were made, it seems you're right.
Samsung combines a 3X optical zoom with a 10X digital zoom, which is why it gives such a bad result.

Apple - or anyone actually - could even develop a tech similar to Pixelmator Pro (with Machine Learning) that zooms without pixelating the result too much. It takes a good ML processor though, something Apple has a clear edge over the competition.
 

Jony Ive and Co.

macrumors 6502
Jul 9, 2020
338
531
Hey! Where's our periscope graphic!!

I for one, would like to congratulate the site for not putting that ridiculous image of a literal "periscope" that was on the last article on this article.
If the literal periscope is not funny enough, here I present you all with the joke of the lifetime -- a literal periscope facing THE WRONG WAY ROUND

periscope.PNG
 

lazyrighteye

Contributor
Jan 16, 2002
4,097
6,318
Denver, CO
That's because you've never had it in an Apple product, and you have been well trained to not miss whatever Apple chooses not to release, until they deign to release it, then you will be all in like the rest of us. The optical zoom on the Note 20 Ultra is amazing for bringing in distant details.
Ha. Maybe when/if it arrives, I’ll be all “how did I live without it?” But I maintain a pretty solid “never once wished I had a better zoom on an iPhone.” I’m happy to be surprise.
 

KptHaddock

macrumors newbie
Dec 8, 2020
5
2
Honestly I'd like to see Apple use MEMS technology utilizing oil and an electrical current to bring in optical zoom range. that is IF it can give use better quality 50x/100x Zoom that we've seen on Galazy etc devices.


this is back as far as 2012 so I'm hoping better advancements for improvements have been made since then.
This would/could allow the sleek thinness we're seeing in the iphone 12 and future devices.

Can this be a TLens by poLight, their Piezo-actuated polymer lens that mimics the human eye? Looking at the Specs here, i think TLens fits the bill . Most of the OEM players have multiple patents implementing the poLight TLens. Allready used in smartwatches and Barcode


Look at the partners patents regarding poLight TLens here (translated from norwegian): https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=https://finansavisen.no/forum/thread/75751/view/0/0?page=1
 
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Denzo

macrumors 6502a
Sep 10, 2009
735
1,054
Australia
Sorry but 2 years away and they will get what competition have now, AND be the most expensive out there?
Forgive me if I’m flaccid. 15x zoom would be cool in 2022.
 

The Game 161

macrumors Nehalem
Dec 15, 2010
30,276
19,494
UK
Sorry but 2 years away and they will get what competition have now, AND be the most expensive out there?
Forgive me if I’m flaccid. 15x zoom would be cool in 2022.

Well Samsung are only just adding 10x optical in 2021 so let’s not act like it’s been around for years. P50 pro got it only this year for 10x

Apple is rarely first bit least it’s coming
 

lazyrighteye

Contributor
Jan 16, 2002
4,097
6,318
Denver, CO
I tend to take a lot of pictures when I'm outside. Zoom would be great when trying to get pictures of birds, or something across a body of water, a detail on a building, etc.
Several people have called out nature photography - something I certainly appreciate but don’t tend to capture myself.
That said, I’d likely not complain about more zoom, just hadn’t been something on my radar. At all. Neat. Cheers.
 

DeepIn2U

macrumors G5
May 30, 2002
12,826
6,880
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Can this be a TLens by poLight, their Piezo-actuated polymer lens that mimics the human eye? Looking at the Specs here, i think TLens fits the bill . Most of the OEM players have multiple patents implementing the poLight TLens. Allready used in smartwatches and Barcode


Look at the partners patents regarding poLight TLens here (translated from norwegian): https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=https://finansavisen.no/forum/thread/75751/view/0/0?page=1
Haddock,

nice details ... will give a read after work today much appreciated!!
 

ryanflanders256

macrumors regular
Feb 22, 2006
138
74
I'm surprised we haven't seen this in any smartphones yet.

It would not be good if Apple had to rely on Samsung for this part. They have a quarrelsome history.
 
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