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OS X is my favorite operating system, but if it would run on any PC (non-hacked, or hacked in a good way), I would never buy a Mac. I believe there are a lot of people like me.

It will very likely never run on non-Apple hardware unmodified, and any hack won't be a good one, as critical pieces of the OS will always have to me modified, resulting in an unsupported, unupdateable mess.

The only way this MAY be possible (unmodified and unhacked) is via virtualization.

And no, there really aren't a lot of people like you. As long as something like this is unsupported and/or illegal, it will always be relegated to a fringe of hobbyists, hackers, and tinkerers. Sure, some people may say they're using it for "real work", but it will ALWAYS be a fringe if it's against the license agreement, and unsupported by any vendor or OEM (as it always will be as long as Apple's licensing agreement is worded the way it is at present). Even if there are thousands or tens of thousands of people who would run Mac OS X in this way, it's still a ridiculously small drop in the bucket. Not even a blip on the radar of market share.

The way to get Mac OS X legally and in a supported state will continue, for the foreseeable future, to be via Apple hardware.

And finally, the humorous thing is that Apple, statistically, is better than any other major PC vendor in terms of quality control and need for repairs, and that includes Sony, Dell, IBM/Lenovo, Toshiba, Gateway, and others.
 
It will very likely never run on non-Apple hardware unmodified, and any hack won't be a good one, as critical pieces of the OS will always have to me modified, resulting in an unsupported, unupdateable mess.

The only way this MAY be possible (unmodified and unhacked) is via virtualization.

And no, there really aren't a lot of people like you. As long as something like this is unsupported and/or illegal, it will always be relegated to a fringe of hobbyists, hackers, and tinkerers. Sure, some people may say they're using it for "real work", but it will ALWAYS be a fringe if it's against the license agreement, and unsupported by any vendor or OEM (as it always will be as long as Apple's licensing agreement is worded the way it is at present). Even if there are thousands or tens of thousands of people who would run Mac OS X in this way, it's still a ridiculously small drop in the bucket. Not even a blip on the radar of market share.

The way to get Mac OS X legally and in a supported state will continue, for the foreseeable future, to be via Apple hardware.

And finally, the humorous thing is that Apple, statistically, is better than any other major PC vendor in terms of quality control and need for repairs, and that includes Sony, Dell, IBM/Lenovo, Toshiba, Gateway, and others.

What I meant was that, if Apple released OS X for generic PCs, I believe a lot of people (like me), would just buy the OS, and not a Mac. That's one of the reasons Apple would never release it that way.
 
Also, both get so hot that they underclock themselves, which I doubt is good for the CPU. And since Apple only have a lousy one year warranty (unless you purchase more for a lot of money), it's difficult not to be worried. I can always hope European laws makes it better. I think that gives me a little more protection.

Wait, what do you mean exactly about them "underclocking" themselves? Do you just mean that they aren't always running at 2.0 GHz, etc., and that you'll sometimes see the speed drop? If so, that is normal, and all PC laptops with Pentium M's, Core Duos and Core 2 Duos do this.

Regarding the warranty; Apple is hardly the only company to offer a 1 year warranty by default, and their prices for AppleCare are not really any more expensive than what Toshiba, Dell, Sony, HP, etc. charge for their extended warranties.

What I meant was that, if Apple released OS X for generic PCs, I believe a lot of people (like me), would just buy the OS, and not a Mac. That's one of the reasons Apple would never release it that way.

Possibly, although even in that scenario, I would certainly still buy Mac laptops. From the laptops I've owned, the MacBook Pro was much better than my Sony, my Toshiba or my Dell laptop. Even the option of installing OS X on a PC notebook wouldn't specifically make me buy one to do it, generally.

I can understand where you're coming from given your bad experience though; your experiences actually are similar to why I won't buy Toshiba laptops any more (I tried giving them a chance recently too, but had 3 or 4 bad laptops before giving up entirely).
 
What I meant was that, if Apple released OS X for generic PCs, I believe a lot of people (like me), would just buy the OS, and not a Mac. That's one of the reasons Apple would never release it that way.

Sure they would. For the same reason that a lot of people buy the cheapest thing they can find online or in stores. And you get what you pay for.

Now, that's not to say that there aren't also a lot of high quality PCs out there. But there are plenty of $400 systems that are worth about, well, $400. And yes, you're right: a lot of people would be getting those if they could get OS X for them (in fact, a lot of people would probably be pirating OS X).

And they'd get what they paid for.

You're right that this is one of the reasons Apple wouldn't do this; not because they're "afraid" people wouldn't buy Macs - they know that. But rather, because the user experience would totally suck, and an unbelievable array of hardware would have to be supported, which is part of the reason Windows compatibility suffered so much over the years.

With control over a finite set of hardware, that's not an issue. And sure, Apple has a wide variety of hardware. But they key is, they still control it all. So just release Mac OS X for specific non-Apple hardware, some would say? No, you'd still get a flood of morons installing it on unsupported hardware, and then judging Mac OS X based on their experiences with it install on their utterly laughable machines, and then posting how much "OS X sucks" all over the internet. Probably right here on this very forum.

It's a lot more complicated than you imagine.
 
The more things change, the more they stay the same...

I did a search on "PC OS X" and you get plenty of places to go and find out how to install OS X on a generic PC.

The sites "encourage" you to buy OS X, instead of downloading it from BitTorrent (but of course, there's a link to it).

There are lists of components that supposedly work with OS X, motherboards, processors, videocards, etc.

The forums are filled with questions on this or that not working or a certain function in OS X causing the machine to crash. Tons of "patches" and "workarounds"...

Same as Windows....
 
Wait, what do you mean exactly about them "underclocking" themselves? Do you just mean that they aren't always running at 2.0 GHz, etc., and that you'll sometimes see the speed drop? If so, that is normal, and all PC laptops with Pentium M's, Core Duos and Core 2 Duos do this.

Yes, I mean that when you're pushing the CPU it drops down to 1.67 GHz. Why would it do this when I need it the most? Because it gets too hot.

Regarding the warranty; Apple is hardly the only company to offer a 1 year warranty by default, and their prices for AppleCare are not really any more expensive than what Toshiba, Dell, Sony, HP, etc. charge for their extended warranties.

At least Lenovo/IBM offers three years. :)

I did a search on "PC OS X" and you get plenty of places to go and find out how to install OS X on a generic PC.

The sites "encourage" you to buy OS X, instead of downloading it from BitTorrent (but of course, there's a link to it).

There are lists of components that supposedly work with OS X, motherboards, processors, videocards, etc.

The forums are filled with questions on this or that not working or a certain function in OS X causing the machine to crash. Tons of "patches" and "workarounds"...

Same as Windows....

I know, but it seems quite bothersome. :) But yeah, I'm definitely looking into that.

Me, and I already do. Want a 12" 3 pound MacBook? I can make it so by running OSX on my Thinkpad X60.

Just because you are blind to the possibilities, doesn't mean they don't exist.

How well does it run? Do you have any experience with real Macs, if so, is it good enough as a replacement?
 
Whether it is a violation of Apple's EULA remains to be seen, but from my understanding EULAs don't stand up in court anyway.
I have no idea where this Internet meme started, but it is absolutely incorrect. Far and away, any EULA overturnings are the exception to the rule, and there have been close to zero instances where a EULA has been dismissed entirely. There have been a number of provisions in particular EULAs which cannot be enforced, but no judge has ever ruled against a EULA in toto.

Apple Hardware is only nice when it is new. Then a week later everyone sees that everyone can do the same and better for cheaper. Then a month or two later while everyone unviels this new feature and that, Apple is touting its New MacBook Pros (no updates in months).
There have to be customers on the leading edge to keep things moving forward. Someone has to do it first at a premium price before it can be made available to the huddled masses. Look at the first microwaves. They were out of reach to most working families 40 years ago, but today you can find them for $40 at Target. But if you look higher in the line, there are still much more expensive microwaves out there embracing new and improved methods. There's nothing radical about expensive microwaves, except nicer materials and showroom-quality design, and some small touches and evolutionary innovations that will trickle down.

But if no one buys the non-commodity ones, the features don't trickle down.

Apparently you haven't taken Econ 101, if not you would have known that increased competition is (in most cases) only going to benefit the consumer in the long run. Increased competition means lower prices and/or better products for the consumer due to the competition.
And if you'd moved on to the 200-level, you'd see that price subsidization in separate sectors causes companies to collapse when the subsidizing agent fails. If you're using your extra profits to run a charity, when your company goes bankrupt, the charity fails as well, because it isn't self-funding. When you sell a product as a core business and use proceeds to fund all development costs, you can sell satellite products (the odd copy of the OS), for a substantially reduced price. However, if the yields fall in the former product, the latter can no longer be sold at below-market prices.

The full version of Windows retails for $299 (ignoring the stupid Ultimate edition). Because Apple is a smaller company with a substantially smaller development group, its per-unit costs are even higher than Microsoft's, a fact only moderated by the narrower reach of its OS. OS X therefore would also have to be sold at a substantially higher rate very close to Microsoft's in order to compensate for the loss.

If you can run OS X on any computer, Apple will have to continue to create hardware that people are willing to purchase at a premium.
A big part of that premium is OS X. To compare retail prices of computers, you must compare the whole package. People who are simple price tag shoppers will never see the value in an Apple computer, just as they will never see the value in a $6 dish towel when the one next to it is $5. Price tag shoppers don't look at the product, and most companies would do anything for a customer base like Apple's. Apple doesn't have the volume to compensate for razor thin margins, and it has no need to.

People keep insisting that the closed system will kill Apple. Adapt or die, and all that. What they fail to realize is that the future of desktop computing isn't this open, scattered disarray of products--it's commoditization of appliances. "Geek machines" are destined to be a niche product, like build-yourself toaster ovens and telephones. A complete, fully functional, reliable product has far more value and convenience than a pile of PCBs and transistors. Once upon a time, customers picked their network, sound, and video cards, and before that, even more trivial pieces. Today, all of that ships on a single board. The internal expansion card sections of electronics stores are a fraction of what they once were, apart from the graphics card aisle. PCs are slowly consolidating into purpose-driven appliances (HTPCs, media servers, desktops, etc.).
 
OS X is my favorite operating system, but if it would run on any PC (non-hacked, or hacked in a good way), I would never buy a Mac. I believe there are a lot of people like me.

Of course not. Get any Mac's specs (except notebooks) - you'll find a comparable PC for 20%-50% less cost even with Windows included.
2nd question - what are you doing when you PC is broken? The answer - you open it and replace broken part with a new one - this costs you X money.
What are you doing when your Mac is broken?The answer - you send it to the Apple, they fix it - this costs you 3X money.
 
Not really. Apple make most of their money on hardware sales, if they were to release OS X for generic PCs, they would lose a lot of money. Also, they would have to support a lot more hardware, adding developing costs I assume. Or am I wrong?

No.

Also, consider this. Just to equal their computer sales profit from last quarter, Apple would have to raise their market share from under 5% to over 25%.

Think about that. They would have to quintuple their sales. Not to mention overhauling their distribution system. Their sales model. Retrain their sales and marketing force. And make big inroads in corporate/group sales, an area where Microsoft WILL take notice.

Sorry, folks...ain't gonna happen. Think you can count on one hand the number of companies who've overhauled themselves that way and stayed in business.
 
Of course not. Get any Mac's specs (except notebooks) - you'll find a comparable PC for 20%-50% less cost even with Windows included.
2nd question - what are you doing when you PC is broken? The answer - you open it and replace broken part with a new one - this costs you X money.
What are you doing when your Mac is broken?The answer - you send it to the Apple, they fix it - this costs you 3X money.

I'll give you 20% in some cases, but please find me a $1000 equivalent to Apple's $2000 MacBook Pro (or a $600 equivalent to Apple's $1200 MacBook).
 
I'll give you 20% in some cases, but please find me a $1000 equivalent to Apple's $2000 MacBook Pro (or a $600 equivalent to Apple's $1200 MacBook).
I noted - "except notebooks". The Apple notebooks really is best choice today for most of the cases you need to work with
But when you get a Mac mini - you can find about 300$ similar PC. When you get an iMac 20" for 1400$ - you can find about 1100$ solution with excellent 20" Samsung screen. Of course it'll be ugly from design point of view, but it'll do the same things as Mac can do - with same performance
 
I noted - "except notebooks". The Apple notebooks really is best choice today for most of the cases you need to work with
But when you get a Mac mini - you can find about 300$ similar PC. When you get an iMac 20" for 1400$ - you can find about 1100$ solution with excellent 20" Samsung screen. Of course it'll be ugly from design point of view, but it'll do the same things as Mac can do - with same performance

The Mac mini is a special case I think, given the form factor. The only PC's I've seen in sizes even vaguely as small as the Mac mini usually cost at least as much if not more. That's a factor in the cost of the Mac mini compared to a larger $300 PC that would have the same basic hardware inside.

I will give you the iMac, but that isn't 50% cheaper, it's $300 less.... and again, there's something to be said for the simpler integrated form factor. I don't think it is ridiculously overpriced compared to its competition, given the capabilities of the iMac.

And of course there's the Mac Pro, which actually stacks up very well compared to similarly spec'd PC's.

I will definitely grant that you can find PC's with similar specs sometimes for less money, but that doesn't always translate to the form factor, which in the case of the iMac and Mac mini are not insignificant.

So I really just don't buy that Apple's prices for their hardware are so outrageous.
 
I noted - "except notebooks". The Apple notebooks really is best choice today for most of the cases you need to work with
But when you get a Mac mini - you can find about 300$ similar PC. When you get an iMac 20" for 1400$ - you can find about 1100$ solution with excellent 20" Samsung screen. Of course it'll be ugly from design point of view, but it'll do the same things as Mac can do - with same performance

Not forgetting you can choose your own graphic card too and upgrade whenever ( instead of being unable to upgrade like iMacs ).

* available drivers permitting!
 
Not forgetting you can choose your own graphic card too and upgrade whenever ( instead of being unable to upgrade like iMacs ).

* available drivers permitting!


That ability to choose is a plus for the technically astute and interested; irrelevant for the disinterested and may actually be a minus for the technically unastute.
 
That ability to choose is a plus for the technically astute and interested; irrelevant for the disinterested and may actually be a minus for the technically unastute.

Such flexibility can extend a life of a machine.

My PC is 3 years old, and started with a crap graphics card. I changed the graphics card and its a fine machine now - that was the bottle neck. Had this not been possible I would have had to change the entire machine at 5 times the price.

The graphics card was OK at the time but became out dated 1 or 2 years later.

Which would I choose? New machine or new graphics card...

... easy choice. Graphics card.


And that is the great thing about PCs - you can easily change components if you like - as they become date - unlike iMacs. And this is one reason why I'd put OSX on non-Apple hardware. Plus its cheaper.
 
Also, if you want to get a new computer when you have an iMac, you have to get a new screen.
 
Not forgetting you can choose your own graphic card too and upgrade whenever ( instead of being unable to upgrade like iMacs ).

* available drivers permitting!

I haven't really seen too many all-in-one PC's (along the same line as the iMac) that have upgradeable graphics.

The iMac form factor doesn't permit anything beyond laptop GPU's.

It certainly would be an argument for some sort of Mac tower or minitower for people who don't need the power of a Mac Pro but might like a bit more upgradeability (and/or don't want the intergrated monitor) than the Mac mini offers.

Such flexibility can extend a life of a machine.

My PC is 3 years old, and started with a crap graphics card. I changed the graphics card and its a fine machine now - that was the bottle neck. Had this not been possible I would have had to change the entire machine at 5 times the price.

The graphics card was OK at the time but became out dated 1 or 2 years later.

Which would I choose? New machine or new graphics card...

... easy choice. Graphics card.

Yes, although there are always caveats. For example, I can't upgrade the GPU in my current PC any more because my motherboard and graphics technology are out of date (AGP and Socket 754). I essentially need to move to a whole new computer.

And the other problem with an older PC is that oftentimes the rest of your hardware becomes a bottleneck.

Either way, most of those issues apply most often to gamers, for which Apple doesn't specifically make a machine. The typical iMac consumer wouldn't be one to do a GPU upgrade even if one were possible.

Also, if you want to get a new computer when you have an iMac, you have to get a new screen.

And this is a surprise to who exactly? This has always been the case with all-in-one computers. Most people who all-in-one computers (from HP, Sony, etc. etc.) know that the computer and monitor are tied together.

This is just a fact of life with that form factor.

I'm not sure what the point of this discussion even is. The iMac has been selling very well for Apple, and for the market it is created for, the people who buy them don't care that the monitor is built in, or that they can't buy new graphics cards.

Certainly there are arguments to be made for other form factors (and I guess this goes back to the issue of putting OS X on PC hardware that doesn't have an equivalent in Apple's lineup), but it doesn't invalidate the stuff Apple currently does offer.

-Zadillo
 
Yes, although there are always caveats. For example, I can't upgrade the GPU in my current PC any more because my motherboard and graphics technology are out of date (AGP and Socket 754). I essentially need to move to a whole new computer.

And the other problem with an older PC is that oftentimes the rest of your hardware becomes a bottleneck.

Either way, most of those issues apply most often to gamers, for which Apple doesn't specifically make a machine. The typical iMac consumer wouldn't be one to do a GPU upgrade even if one were possible.

I agree with you.

But being able to install OSX on non Apple hardware will be more flexible and cheaper for users to make the tradition. Apple would pick up more marketshare allowing OSX on non Apple hardware than the present situation.
 
And this is a surprise to who exactly? This has always been the case with all-in-one computers. Most people who all-in-one computers (from HP, Sony, etc. etc.) know that the computer and monitor are tied together.

This is just a fact of life with that form factor.

I'm not sure what the point of this discussion even is. The iMac has been selling very well for Apple, and for the market it is created for, the people who buy them don't care that the monitor is built in, or that they can't buy new graphics cards.

Certainly there are arguments to be made for other form factors (and I guess this goes back to the issue of putting OS X on PC hardware that doesn't have an equivalent in Apple's lineup), but it doesn't invalidate the stuff Apple currently does offer.

-Zadillo

Of course this is the case with all in one computers. My point is that Apple aren't offering any "cheap" tower computers. That's why I brought up the screen issue.
 
Of course not. Get any Mac's specs (except notebooks) - you'll find a comparable PC for 20%-50% less cost even with Windows included.

The first thing I always mention when I argue with someone who debates the merit of a Mac, based on price, is that OS X is worth $400 to me. Sure, it's available for less than that, but the cost of OS X is subsidized through hardware sales.

If $400 seems like too much to you, let's say $200. That's less than the cost of a loaded version of Windows. And let's not forget iLife (even though I feel somewhat cheated for not receiving iLife '07 with any of the computers I've bought this month ;)). $80 is what it goes for new. But subtract $280.

So my Mac mini really cost $320, the cost of a similarly-specced tower computer which wouldn't and shouldn't be placed right under my TV.

My MacBook (C2D) really cost $1100, and my wife's (CD) cost $700. Not too shabby.

But these price/performance arguments are inherently moronic because they only consider performance. I might be the only one out there, but I really like OS X a lot more than Windows. I also like my remote controls, iSights, optical audio, and the painful physical beauty of these machines. Call me a girly-man, but I like **** that looks nice.

2nd question - what are you doing when you PC is broken? The answer - you open it and replace broken part with a new one - this costs you X money.
What are you doing when your Mac is broken?The answer - you send it to the Apple, they fix it - this costs you 3X money.

It doesn't (or shouldn't, unless you try to "fix" your Mac) cost you if it's a fault in construction or design, or if it's a result of normal usage occurring in the warranty or AppleCare period. other, while an unlucky bastard, is proof of this because he has not had to pay for three logic boards for each of the computers that has been basically DOA.

As far as machines out of warranty/AppleCare are concerned, that's when taking apart your Mac is perfectly acceptable. A year or two ago I replaced the logic board in an iBook. A harrowing experience, but I got through it okay, and I'm @#$%ing stupid.
 
Here's a crazy idea...

instead of Apple making OS X run on cheap PCs, why not just produce lower costing Macs. End result, it's still Apple hardware but the complete package is more in line with PC prices. Again, just a crazy idea. :)
 
I like Apple hardware/software just as much as the next guy, but some of you need to open your eyes. Macs ARE PCs now, the only real difference is that you can run OS X on the Apple PC. Oh yeah, Apple can't hide behind a different architecture anymore so it is out in the open when they get behind other manufacturers with the latest/greatest hardware. :apple:
 
They already did that.

It was called the Performa line.

Now it's the Mini.

The mac mini is not a mid-level PC, it's a toy. A mid-level PC has expandable graphics, pci slots, memory, hard drives, processors, etc etc etc.

Some mac people are so far removed from the reality of what's going on out there...

It seems to me like Apple is dumping all their r&d into gadgets and toys and forgetting about computers. Instead of a $500 phone how about an affordable midrange tower? There's a good chance that after 10 years of buying mac hardware, my next box will not be an apple. I'm watching the efforts to run OSX on 3rd party hardware with great interest. I do not believe that the premium on Apple computers is justified at this point in time.
 
I like Apple hardware/software just as much as the next guy, but some of you need to open your eyes. Macs ARE PCs now, the only real difference is that you can run OS X on the Apple PC. Oh yeah, Apple can't hide behind a different architecture anymore so it is out in the open when they get behind other manufacturers with the latest/greatest hardware. :apple:

And how often is this happening now?
 
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