I'd rather OS X wasn't licensed to other computers. It's dead reliable, and I assume a lot of this is because it's tied to the hardware. As soon as it goes out to everybody else, crap WILL be written to go with the hardware which will cause all sorts of Windows-type errors damaging the OS's reputation.
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Sad ramblings of an almost Apple switcher...
- Thread starter 88MVP
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Wow, I did not expect my OP to spark such a conversation. Again, I wasn't trying to start a flame or make a pointless post. I feel like there are a lot of people who would be willing to give Macs a shot if the premium weren't quite as large.
The "Ferrari vs. Honda" comparison is bunk - the Honda that's 50k cheaper doesn't have the same V12 engine under the hood.
I don't really have much to add beyond my intial post, but I wanted to respond to the suggestion that I exaggerated the price difference. Dell currently has $620 off of M1530's (I assume to clear out the Merom chips in advance of Penryn) and I was then able to add my educational discount on top of that (which is 12% as opposed to Apple's flat $200 on MBP's). All told, I got a laptop with better specs than the 2.4 MBP for $1,400. (Also, 3 year warranty included in the price, not an additional $250 like applecare) So including warranty, the price difference was actually just over $1,000....As much as I wanted to switch, I couldn't justify that right now. Maybe in a few years when I have a well-paying job, but not now.
Also, to those suggesting that I knew I couldn't afford an Apple all along and I was just whining: Originally I was willing to pay the extra, but that was before PC makers started slicing prices on the current models and the price difference became too big to ignore... It's not that I couldn't still afford a MBP if i was desperate for one, I just can no longer justify the price delta. (But you're right, I was whining)
Thanks to the people who recognized the point of my post. Maybe at some point Apple will realize that there's a lot more money to be had in licensing the OS than there is in hardware sales. I'll leave my posting at that, there's no need to continue posting here now that the Mac is officially out. Peace.
wait you can't leave! people still want to tell you that PCs suck and then you are dumb for saving money
I'll agree that Macs are expensive.
But in general, I don't find them overpriced. You're paying for quality. The strong software-hardware integration that Apple uses is part of what makes OS X such a wonderful experience. If you would use OS X on just any computer, it would soon start running into the same problems as Windows. You let people run OS X on just any PC, and you'll get thousands of people complaining about how unstable it is and wondering why Apple doesn't do something about it. Personally, I think it's a good business model, and I hope Apple never does away with it, as long as they keep up their quality.
Macs may sometimes cost more spec-for-spec than many PC's, but they still usually end up lasting longer and performing better.
I can say from personal experience that you certainly don't have to be rich to spend an extra $1000 on a Mac than a PC with equal specs (and I doubt it's quite $1000, anyway, like many else here have pointed out). My girlfriend's had three laptops in the past year or so, while working a <$10 per hour job. Two of them were MacBooks and one of them was a PC. She bought the first MacBook first, but after her roommate broke it (her roommate was a bitch), she decided to get a PC laptop since it was cheaper, and didn't want to save up for a MacBook again. Well, when her roommate broke that one, too, she thought about which was more worth the money.... and saved up for a new MacBook again, which she still has (and doesn't have the roommate anymore, thank god).
I would never take $1000 to use Windows; especially not for another ten years. I know in that time, I would either spend much more than $1000 in repairs/replacements, or at the very least go through many, many >$1000 headaches. The Mac would definitely be worth it to me. When it's Mac vs. PC, I think any any added expense on the Mac definitely pays for itself through longevity and saved time.
But in general, I don't find them overpriced. You're paying for quality. The strong software-hardware integration that Apple uses is part of what makes OS X such a wonderful experience. If you would use OS X on just any computer, it would soon start running into the same problems as Windows. You let people run OS X on just any PC, and you'll get thousands of people complaining about how unstable it is and wondering why Apple doesn't do something about it. Personally, I think it's a good business model, and I hope Apple never does away with it, as long as they keep up their quality.
Macs may sometimes cost more spec-for-spec than many PC's, but they still usually end up lasting longer and performing better.
I can say from personal experience that you certainly don't have to be rich to spend an extra $1000 on a Mac than a PC with equal specs (and I doubt it's quite $1000, anyway, like many else here have pointed out). My girlfriend's had three laptops in the past year or so, while working a <$10 per hour job. Two of them were MacBooks and one of them was a PC. She bought the first MacBook first, but after her roommate broke it (her roommate was a bitch), she decided to get a PC laptop since it was cheaper, and didn't want to save up for a MacBook again. Well, when her roommate broke that one, too, she thought about which was more worth the money.... and saved up for a new MacBook again, which she still has (and doesn't have the roommate anymore, thank god).
I would never take $1000 to use Windows; especially not for another ten years. I know in that time, I would either spend much more than $1000 in repairs/replacements, or at the very least go through many, many >$1000 headaches. The Mac would definitely be worth it to me. When it's Mac vs. PC, I think any any added expense on the Mac definitely pays for itself through longevity and saved time.
To the OP, I wish I could be like you (really), but I know that in the end none of these Dells or Thinkpads or HPs would satisfy me as much as an MBP
As mentioned though, if yor MBP lasts several years you will have not spent more money on it. I am currently about to buy a macbook which i hope lasts a lot longer then the 2 years this hp has given me! If it lasts 3 or more, i'm quids in!!
And besides, there really is no other laptop as sexy as a MB or MBP
Dude. You got a Dell. It'll be a doorstop; festering with spyware and viruses, years before your Apple would have felt slightly outdated at which junction you sell it for 60% of what you paid 2 years previous.
And your XPS, it runs Vista. Not OSX. Oops
And your XPS, it runs Vista. Not OSX. Oops
I switched to Mac two years ago with a 20" iMac CD. My wife thought I was nuts to pay that much for a comp, but, two years later and the iMac is still tying every bundle, no defects, still as fast as the day I got it. No defrags, no OS reinstalls, no crashes, nothing but software updates.
When I reminded my wife the other day that the iMac was now two years old, even technophobe her stated, "That's been a good computer for us".
I switched because after 10 years of Windows I was anxious, nay desperate, for an alternative.
It's the other way round for me.
My Dell PC cost me £1400 a few years ago, and I can't run the latest version of Windows a few years down the line. If I'd spent more on a Mac at the time with 'lesser specs', I'd still be able to run the latest version of OS X at speed...
My Dell PC cost me £1400 a few years ago, and I can't run the latest version of Windows a few years down the line. If I'd spent more on a Mac at the time with 'lesser specs', I'd still be able to run the latest version of OS X at speed...
I wasn't out to offend the OP, nor was I calling the OP dumb. I merely pointed out that I, personally, would rather have the MBP over a Wintel machine any day, despite it being "much cheaper."
Just because I know how to maintain a Windows machine doesn't mean I want to.
Just because I know how to maintain a Windows machine doesn't mean I want to.
To the OP, I wish I could be like you (really), but I know that in the end none of these Dells or Thinkpads or HPs would satisfy me as much as an MBP
But you say that in the end, none of those Dells or Thinkpads or HPs would satisfy you as much as your MBP. That means you DO have common sense. Buying something that wouldn't be as satisfying in the end simply because it's cheaper it's necessarily "common sense," "frugal," or anything like that. It's just silly. If you have a feeling of being ripped off, or you regret your decision, then you have a point, but if your MBP really is satisfying, then you definitely made the "common sense" decision.
That's one of the great thing about OS X and Macs in general. With Windows, the new OS's need faster computers, and still tend to run slower than the older versions. With Macs, the new versions will run faster than the older versions, regardless of specs, because of the genuine improvement of the OS instead of the needless bloat of Windows. (With the one exception being if you have a PPC instead of an Intel, then the old PPC-native OS will run better...but still better than Windows!)
obvious differences
Looks like some people cannot see obvious differences,
so here are some advantages of Mac laptops and OS X:
+ Smaller power supply with clever cord management.
+ Longer battery life compared to same laptop running windows. (You have to pay for extra battery "cells" with wintels)
+ Even weight distribution for walking around, typing with one hand.
+ Battery keeps its charge much longer than wintels in sleep mode. No need to shut down for traveling.
+ PC laptops can burn up if left on couch or on carpeted floor (due to various vantilation holes in unusual places that are easy to cover). Mac's ventilation are difficult to block.
+ Close lid to sleep; open to wake is fairly instantly. Easy to take it out of the bag, use it for 2 minutes, close and put it back into the bag.
+ Occasional reboots faster than wintels of the same speed / age.
+ Keyboard short cuts are convenient (Command key is much easier to use than ctrl). Note OS X is full of keyboard short cuts, and if you know what you are doing, you can run around windows in circles.
+ Windows XP and Vista require drivers for even the most basic things.
+ XP and Vista can only use 3gb of ram, no matter if you have top of the line motherboard / processors. You need to pay more for the 64bit version of windows which is less useful (due to lack of drivers).
+ Windows antivirus failing (http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/100900)
+ Hate spam? Get a mac. Why? About 90% of spam you are receiving are sent by infected Windows machines.
+ OS X asks for your permission; you are in charge. No default stealth windows updates that force quits your opened documents without saving.
+ You can install a lot more apps on the mac than windows without as much slow down as windows which has registry issues (installing apps without even using it in windows can slow down the computer!).
+ You can open a lot more apps / documents at the same time than windows.
+ More processing power than same computer running windows. A computer running XP is about 85% of speed as computer running OS X, benchmarked by Geekbench.
+ and many more...
Looks like some people cannot see obvious differences,
so here are some advantages of Mac laptops and OS X:
+ Smaller power supply with clever cord management.
+ Longer battery life compared to same laptop running windows. (You have to pay for extra battery "cells" with wintels)
+ Even weight distribution for walking around, typing with one hand.
+ Battery keeps its charge much longer than wintels in sleep mode. No need to shut down for traveling.
+ PC laptops can burn up if left on couch or on carpeted floor (due to various vantilation holes in unusual places that are easy to cover). Mac's ventilation are difficult to block.
+ Close lid to sleep; open to wake is fairly instantly. Easy to take it out of the bag, use it for 2 minutes, close and put it back into the bag.
+ Occasional reboots faster than wintels of the same speed / age.
+ Keyboard short cuts are convenient (Command key is much easier to use than ctrl). Note OS X is full of keyboard short cuts, and if you know what you are doing, you can run around windows in circles.
+ Windows XP and Vista require drivers for even the most basic things.
+ XP and Vista can only use 3gb of ram, no matter if you have top of the line motherboard / processors. You need to pay more for the 64bit version of windows which is less useful (due to lack of drivers).
+ Windows antivirus failing (http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/100900)
+ Hate spam? Get a mac. Why? About 90% of spam you are receiving are sent by infected Windows machines.
+ OS X asks for your permission; you are in charge. No default stealth windows updates that force quits your opened documents without saving.
+ You can install a lot more apps on the mac than windows without as much slow down as windows which has registry issues (installing apps without even using it in windows can slow down the computer!).
+ You can open a lot more apps / documents at the same time than windows.
+ More processing power than same computer running windows. A computer running XP is about 85% of speed as computer running OS X, benchmarked by Geekbench.
+ and many more...
Are you aware of the fact that Apple uses the same hardware that all other manufacturers use? There is very little difference between a PC 'PC' and an Apple 'PC'. It is the total control over the complete package that does the trick. 1,000,000 possible combinations vs. a handful. Many Windows errors can be attributed to ill-written drivers or software.
+ Smaller power supply with clever cord management.
true
+ Longer battery life compared to same laptop running windows. (You have
to pay for extra battery "cells" with wintels)
true, but its still cheaper to buy a dell anyways so that point is moot
+ Even weight distribution for walking around, typing with one hand.
probably true..but who carries a laptop around with one hand and types with the other...kinda easy way to drop a laptop..regardless of make and model
+ Battery keeps its charge much longer than wintels in sleep mode. No need
to shut down for traveling.
idk if that is actually accurate
+ PC laptops can burn up if left on couch or on carpeted floor (due to various vantilation holes in unusual places that are easy to cover). Mac's ventilation are difficult to block.
false
+ Close lid to sleep; open to wake is fairly instantly. Easy to take it out of the bag, use it for 2 minutes, close and put it back into the bag.
vista can do this too now
+ Occasional reboots faster than wintels of the same speed / age.
probably true, but honestly is booting up 30 sec faster the basis of your decision to buy a computer? Personally, I focus on the usage of the computer rather than how long it takes to turn it on
+ Keyboard short cuts are convenient (Command key is much easier to use than ctrl). Note OS X is full of keyboard short cuts, and if you know what you are doing, you can run around windows in circles.
pressing ctrl instead of apple key is really a very small thing that comes down to personal preference. It is true that the apple key is closer to the xcv keys for copy paste..but honestly idk how you can justify that as a significant advantage
+ Windows XP and Vista require drivers for even the most basic things.
believe it or not, osx requires drivers too..for even the most basic things
even linux
drivers make things work..omg?!
+ XP and Vista can only use 3gb of ram, no matter if you have top of the line motherboard / processors. You need to pay more for the 64bit version of windows which is less useful (due to lack of drivers).
your reasoning is flawed but you have a point. Though, vista 64 is much more functional then you lead on it to be.
+ Windows antivirus failing (http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/100900)
if you don't go to sketchy sites and open every attachment you won't get viruses
+ Hate spam? Get a mac. Why? About 90% of spam you are receiving are sent by infected Windows machines.
windows also holds 90% of the market
+ OS X asks for your permission; you are in charge. No default stealth windows updates that force quits your opened documents without saving.
vista does this too..they're just annoying when they do it
+ You can install a lot more apps on the mac than windows without as much slow down as windows which has registry issues (installing apps without even using it in windows can slow down the computer!).
yes but some mac programs do this too
+ You can open a lot more apps / documents at the same time than windows.
where'd that logic come from? That's entirely dependent on ram, not os.
+ More processing power than same computer running windows. A computer running XP is about 85% of speed as computer running OS X, benchmarked by Geekbench.
85% the speed while running geekbench
xp is also much faster at gaming and generally performs as well or better in real world benchmarks
don't talk about stuff you know little about in the name of praising apple. You demean all of us.
Thank you. OS X isn't "better" than Windows; it's just different. If more people understood that, there'd be very little to argue about here. Maybe that's why a lot of people refuse to understand this.
all I can say is wow
this thread is an exact example of the reason I joined the "I don't hate macs, I hate arrogant mac users" group on facebook
Yawn. And in most cases untrue or urban legend. But you took another bullet for Apple, didn't you?
On many of the items you agreed with what I said. However, your response shows lack of knowledge on other items.
For example
"+ You can open a lot more apps / documents at the same time than windows.
where'd that logic come from? That's entirely dependent on ram, not os. "
Obviously you are not a power user who multi-tasks (oh let me guess you open app at the time with windows, maximize with windows). Why don't you try to open photoshop with multiple hundred meg files, email with 20,000 messages, music player with >200gb of music, and see how your precious windows behave? Do that on a computer with 1gb or even 2gb of ram.
90% of spam comes from infected windows machines, the other 10% are sent by spammer equipment. 0% comes from infected macs.
Do you know vista needs driver to connect to VGA projectors? Something that OS 8, 9, X can do with no problem? Hilarious when I see other consultants who cannot run their presentation on their vista laptops and I can run their slides on my MBP 17" without even pressing fn-F8 or rebooting the projector.
And you know, vista security = insecurity due to the annoying nature.
"The majority of users will find the significant restrictions on actions which effectively sterilize the system unacceptable, just as the constant requests to confirm or enter a password for an action which the system defines as being 'potentially dangerous'. And it is at this point that the 'almost totally secure system is transformed into a more vulnerable' system."
http://www.viruslist.com/en/analysis?pubid=204791916
Microsoft's Own Vista Virus Scanner Fails VB100 Test:
"Virus Bulletin reviewed 15 different virus scanners for Microsoft Windows Vista... Of the 15 products tested only 11 passed muster, the most prominent of the failures is Microsoft OneCare, the Windows Vista integrated malware protection. Other prominent failures include the products provided by McAfee and Norman for inclusion in the tests.
The protection offered by Microsoft Defender has been called into question by some Anti-Spyware vendors after their testing showed that Defender failed to block some of the most common variations of existing spyware. In tests it appeared that various threat types including keyloggers and trojans were able to reside within the Vista test environments undetected."
http://www.virus.org/news/computer-v...b100-test.html
maybe you don't know how to priotize what you are doing?
also I have been multi-tasking plenty on my windows machine and it has been fine for what I have need
also why do you have 20,000 emails (maybe you should delete some of the spam about viagra?) and I don't see how having 200gb of music would affect tasking, since you're just playing one song at a time?
i understand that you're trying to make sure that apple comes out the winner, but this is just kind of sad
No, but I CAN spell prioritize!
(Sorry, couldn't resist)Some people have small needs. (Seriously, I'm out of control, quit setting me up like this!)
Damn Viagra, always looking for an endorsement! (I told them I don't use that crap!)
Hey, I'd have done the same thing. Well, actually, I'd have gone with a T61, most likely, but in the end, we've each got to decide what's worth our money. No need to apologize.
Though from what I've seen and heard, thinkpads are still very good laptops, and well built. I actually have a MBP. I got it pretty much from the reasons that many have reiterated on this thread.
*Sigh*
The same old arguments:
1) You pay more for Apple products because they're higher quality.
["As for all the complaints, that's because people on forums complain more than others!!11 And no one mentions when things work right." Ad nauseum]
2) It's okay to pay a premium because Apple computers have a higher resale value. I'm not sure who quantified that..
3) Okay fine, you're paying more for Apple branded computer (with the same components), but it's okay, because I have OS X! And because it's not Vista, I'd be willing to pay any premium they want for it.
And essentially, people can't argue about the value, but then it comes down to the fact that some posters say they are willing to pay any amount of a price premium for a mac, and therefore an Apple computer is a good value, and is not overpriced. And since you can't put an actual dollar value on the brand, some cannot be convinced that they are paying too much..
The same old arguments:
1) You pay more for Apple products because they're higher quality.
["As for all the complaints, that's because people on forums complain more than others!!11 And no one mentions when things work right." Ad nauseum]
2) It's okay to pay a premium because Apple computers have a higher resale value. I'm not sure who quantified that..
3) Okay fine, you're paying more for Apple branded computer (with the same components), but it's okay, because I have OS X! And because it's not Vista, I'd be willing to pay any premium they want for it.
And essentially, people can't argue about the value, but then it comes down to the fact that some posters say they are willing to pay any amount of a price premium for a mac, and therefore an Apple computer is a good value, and is not overpriced. And since you can't put an actual dollar value on the brand, some cannot be convinced that they are paying too much..
I think the OP was echoing the thoughts of a lot of people on here including myself. I struggle with the idea of paying so much more for a computer when I worry that much of the hype may just be that- hype. I just can't help but feel like I may be paying for image- not unlike buying a Lexus (Toyota is damn near identical for a lot less). I am going to try Mac out though simply because I am so fed up with Windows and primarily anti-virus software. I am at the point now where I don't know if Mac is going to be better or not but I have to find out now that I am curious.