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Safari 4.0.1 vs Firefox 3.5

clevin said:
XUL is a language, cocoa is an API, exactly how you can put them together and talk like they are equal in any term is beyond me.

the features missing is because mozilla didn't use them, did NOT use them is completely different from using another API to accomplish the task.

missing feature is legit bug, to accuse something irrelevant is just muddling the water.

exactly why don't you just check more references before making so many bizarre statements?
Click to expand...

Who says I said they were the same thing? Firefox is a browser that is primarily based off XUL in its menus, interface, and plugins. Camino is an example of a full Cocoa. Camino does not support Firefox plugins because of this. Camino does have access to the Services Menu, unlike Firefox, and when I use Launchbar that is important. Are you going to tell me that Camino is a year behind whatever Mozilla does, managed to figure this out where Mozilla could not?

You say that these things are bugs, but bugs don't go unfixed for years. The only answer from Mozilla that I see on their website is this along with the mention of poor Applescript support.

You want to believe that Firefox is a full Cocoa browser, go ahead. I'm off to a party.

Happy 4th everyone!:D
 
You want to believe that Firefox is a full Cocoa browser, go ahead.
Click to expand...

And? Nobody tells you Firefox is a full Cocoa browser.
The GUI is naturally a mix of XUL and Cocoa :D thankfully :D
And Cocoa is only one small part to create it a good Mac OS X browser.

For example from: http://boomswaggerboom.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/firefox-3-for-mac-os-x-under-the-hood/:
Another major under-the-hood change in Gecko 1.9 for Mac OS X is drawing via CoreGraphics and ATSUI instead of Quickdraw. Like much of Carbon, Quickdraw is deprecated and does not exist in 64-bit Mac OS X. Gecko 1.9 uses the Cairo library on all platforms, and Cairo draws with CoreGraphics and ATSUI on Mac OS X. The CoreGraphics drawing API is modern and hardware accelerated, a huge improvement over Quickdraw in terms of speed, capabilities, and code clarity. In addition to using CoreGraphics ourselves, we have made it possible for plugins to use CoreGraphics via NPAPI Drawing Models3.

Lots of funny names, or? :D Cocoa is only one part .. and nobody really knows, why some Mac-Fanboys created a religion only about this Cocoa stuff. :eek:


You say that these things are bugs, but bugs don't go unfixed for years. The only answer from Mozilla ..
Click to expand...

Some bugs are even more important than other, that`s all.

For example from Mozilla's Director of Firefox Mike Beltzner
http://www.beltzner.ca/mike/archives/2008/04/good-suggestion.html
about a less important feature:


“Firefox doesn’t support the Services menu.”

I don’t think that the Services menu is used all that often by your average Mac user, but our lack of support here makes it harder to play nicely with inter-application integration on OSX, and we should probably consider fixing this long standing request sometime in the future.


Are you going to tell me that Camino is a year behind whatever Mozilla does
Click to expand...
Camino is as well Mozilla ;-)
And yes, they are years behind Firefox.
Camino 1.6 use for example the years old Gecko 1.8 version.
The upcoming Camino 2.0 version use then Gecko 1.9.
Firefox 3.0 used as well Gecko 1.9 and Firefox 3.5 use now the much improved Gecko 1.9.1 version ... even years behind Firefox :)
On the other hand has it still some Mac advantages, which Firefox lacks.
But when you look at the Mac browser market share .. are these advantages really important for many user?
 
Not to derail this thread....but...I have a question for the browser gods...

I do NOT want to play a single movie within the Safari browser window. I want them to pop open in a separate Quicktime window. In Firefox, this is easy because you can just tell it not to use the plug-in. Can something similar be done in Safari?

Hickman
 
Since Safari 4 came out I've been using it a lot, mainly because it's fast. However, I still love Firefox for the extensions (Adblock and XMarks so I can have the same bookmarks everywhere). The one thing I really hate about Safari is that when I click a link it automatically opens a new window rather than a new tab (to open a link in a new tab you have to hold down the apple key). I wish Apple would fix Safari so that it works like Firefox (hell, even IE 7 & 8 have options to automatically open links in a new tab rather than new window without having to hold down a button when you click it).
 
str1f3 said:
Who says I said they were the same thing? Firefox is a browser that is primarily based off XUL in its menus, interface, and plugins. Camino is an example of a full Cocoa. Camino does not support Firefox plugins because of this. Camino does have access to the Services Menu, unlike Firefox, and when I use Launchbar that is important. Are you going to tell me that Camino is a year behind whatever Mozilla does, managed to figure this out where Mozilla could not?

You say that these things are bugs, but bugs don't go unfixed for years. The only answer from Mozilla that I see on their website is this along with the mention of poor Applescript support.

You want to believe that Firefox is a full Cocoa browser, go ahead. I'm off to a party.

Happy 4th everyone!:D
Click to expand...

hope you enjoy your party!

anyway, your stubbornness of refusing to admit any mistake is staggering. we put the facts and references in front of your nose, we did research for you!, and you still couldn't face it.

you just could not separate the API and feature set, could you?

you want to accuse firefox being 5% carbon? fine.

but each time you utter the word "cocoa", you come up with something totally unrelated. its just messy and illogical.

firefox has 220-270m users, of course there are numerous bugs requesting this and that, and of course there are some bugs more important than others, im sorry OSX service menu or dictionary is not at highest priority, but nobody force anybody to use firefox if those are deal breaker for them.

for example, i guarantee you bug related to addon system security and improvement has higher priority than OSX service menu any time of any day.
 
Jethryn Freyman said:
There's more to a browser than speed.
Click to expand...

Oh so true! A year ago, I was a PC with IE. 8 moths ago, my roommate showed me the wonders of FF beta 2. With the built-in features, abilities, and add-ons for FF 3.5, no other browser compares to me. I like the look better too.
 
Meek Wriggle said:
Since Safari 4 came out I've been using it a lot, mainly because it's fast. However, I still love Firefox for the extensions (Adblock and XMarks so I can have the same bookmarks everywhere). The one thing I really hate about Safari is that when I click a link it automatically opens a new window rather than a new tab (to open a link in a new tab you have to hold down the apple key). I wish Apple would fix Safari so that it works like Firefox (hell, even IE 7 & 8 have options to automatically open links in a new tab rather than new window without having to hold down a button when you click it).
Click to expand...

You can do that by adding a free plugin called Glims from www.machangout.com. Once installed, you can choose the option to 'force-open' new links in tabs. And there are many more options to choose from. For more plugins, you can visit http://pimpmysafari.com
 
Meek Wriggle said:
Since Safari 4 came out I've been using it a lot, mainly because it's fast. However, I still love Firefox for the extensions (Adblock and XMarks so I can have the same bookmarks everywhere). The one thing I really hate about Safari is that when I click a link it automatically opens a new window rather than a new tab (to open a link in a new tab you have to hold down the apple key). I wish Apple would fix Safari so that it works like Firefox (hell, even IE 7 & 8 have options to automatically open links in a new tab rather than new window without having to hold down a button when you click it).
Click to expand...

Get a 3-button (or more; mine is 5-button Best Buy brand optical for like $12) mouse if you don't already have one. Middle click on a mouse will open a link in a new tab on both Firefox and Safari. I use it all the time. In Firefox with TabMixPlus it will also close a tab that you click on.
 
i would probably take safari for the speed, but Firefox has the greatest library of addons you'll ever see.
 
Speed isn't everything.

I tried Safari 3.x as a primary browser for several months before I went back to FF. Then I tried Safari 4.0b for a few weeks. I really tried to like it.

I find that the versatility and customizability of FireFox far outweigh the small performance gains to be had from Safari.

Yes, Safari does 'fit' a little better with OS X but with every iteration, FF picks up a few key features.
 
appledyl said:
i would probably take safari for the speed, but Firefox has the greatest library of addons you'll ever see.
Click to expand...

Signal-11 said:
Speed isn't everything.

I tried Safari 3.x as a primary browser for several months before I went back to FF. Then I tried Safari 4.0b for a few weeks. I really tried to like it.

I find that the versatility and customizability of FireFox far outweigh the small performance gains to be had from Safari.

Yes, Safari does 'fit' a little better with OS X but with every iteration, FF picks up a few key features.
Click to expand...

I think this is why I don't really see the sparks and bedazzles of FF, i never really tried addons enough to make them key to my browsing experience.
 
Signal-11 said:
Speed isn't everything.

I tried Safari 3.x as a primary browser for several months before I went back to FF. Then I tried Safari 4.0b for a few weeks. I really tried to like it.

I find that the versatility and customizability of FireFox far outweigh the small performance gains to be had from Safari.

Yes, Safari does 'fit' a little better with OS X but with every iteration, FF picks up a few key features.
Click to expand...

I guess it depends on how faster it is for you. Here safari blows firefox away, can't resist with its slowness, especially if using addons.
 
EmperorDarius said:
I guess it depends on how faster it is for you. Here safari blows firefox away, can't resist with its slowness, especially if using addons.
Click to expand...

u probably need a new profile, most addons should not make that much a difference especially with today's computers
 
I must say that with all these arguments about which browser is faster you forget one key factor, the web does not consist of only js. You can say you see speed gains but really, how fast does a page have to load for it to be convenient to the end-user? I would say when you start measuring load times by fractions of a millisecond it's no longer noticeable by the average person. To think that with the outdated internet foundations we've gotten speeds as fast as we have is amazing however, how fast can we go? Better hardware leads to better scores yet better rendering methods do only so much. You hit bottlenecks no matter how good your browser or computer are. HDD speeds, ram amounts and speeds, cpu speeds and caching, gpu speeds, pcie speeds, vram amounts and speeds, network latency, NIC speeds, ect., ect. The list goes on and yet all we hear is, "Safari is way faster than Firefox! Just look at this score I got from futuremark's Peacekeeper!" or something similar with chrome as well. However, most users(including high-end users) can only see a 1-2 second speed increase in some of the tasks they might use their browser for. How often do people run into significant bottlenecks caused by their browser nowadays anyhow? I don't know what you are running that makes Safari way better than Firefox, but the point isn't to appease high-end customers. The point is to make a browser that's fast, secure, reliable, and user-friendly. Both of these browsers have that so if you're gunna B&M that Firefox is too slow don't use it. It comes down to a point of personal preference and needs and obviously your needs are just so great in terms of js rendering that you want Safari. Use it then. I'll use ff and stick with the ol' Netscape crew.

P.S.- You might want to note that Safari IS MADE by Apple so OF COURSE it's gunna fit better with the OS. Just common sense when it comes to Apple. :p
 
I don't care about test results, I only care about what's better and more convenient for me, which of course is FireFox. The new 4.0.2 Safari is very well, though.
 
bluedoggiant said:
How about as far as stability.

Anyone find any of the browsers more stable than the other?
Click to expand...

no

however, most of the time Im using developing builds of them. I found stable version of them are all to be quite stable.

developing version, I think firefox is stabler, which probably means nothing for end users.
 
If you are involved to webdevelopment I think it is necessary to have Firefox installed - at least becase of addons, that were released, also like "view source code" will display colored syntax of html instead of "black text" in Safari, also AdBlock Plus works excellent on Firefox, and there Safari loosing some points (even if there are some AdBlocks for Safari..), btw Im used to use Mouse gestures, and on Safari there is no equivalent for this feature, so why would I Safari, because it has 100% in ACID3 ? So what? Because it is about 0.06s faster than Firefox? You can set up some features to get Firefox faster, but who cares - it is all about functionality, addons, and security - not the speed!

peace :)
 
Being a speed junky;) I prefer Safari 4 it is just much faster then Firefox 3.5 (atleast on my Mac). I've been trying to get into Firefox but just can't seem to get used to the jerky scrolling and lack of overall speed. I really can't wait to try Chrome when it comes out for Mac. For now I'll stick with Safari 4 and I think I'm going to give Opera a shot.
 
I've been a long-time FF user - since it was Mozilla and in pre-alpha state - but am trying to use Safari more and more, but the one thing I really miss is FF's Live Bookmarks that convert RSS feeds into drop-down menus on the Bookmarks bar - that is sooo useful.


flamedog40 said:
P.S.- You might want to note that Safari IS MADE by Apple so OF COURSE it's gunna fit better with the OS. Just common sense when it comes to Apple. :p
Click to expand...

Which makes it all the more surprising that Safari doesn't render the Apple Store correctly but FF does :eek:

apple_safari.jpg

apple_ff.jpg
 
I like Safari on my Mac, I like FireFox on my PC, I like Chrome on both.

But, regardless of that, I think we can all agree that Internet Explorer is terrible. And really, isn't that what matters most?

Also, the Apple site renders well in Safari on my machine.
 
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