Samsung Acquires Apple Pay Rival LoopPay

[Trapezoid]

For those that are trying to down play NFC payments in Europe. I'm watching Coronation street (British Soap opera) and someone just used an NFC payment to pay for her groceries in the local shop.

That's great, I saw someone using Apple pay at subway yesterday. I don't take this to mean that Apple pay has taken over the globe. Some ppl use it, the huge overwhelming majority do not, at least not yet.

Why is it so hard to just accept that? Nfc IS most probably going to become THE standard method of paying, and likely much sooner than it would have been thanks to Apple pay.

It's nowhere near THE standard now, not in the US and not in any other country in the world.

 

[tigress666]

For those complaining Samsung copied Apple, I wish they did. If they required NFC for their phones too, that would be more motivation for more retailers to get NFC. Better for us? Just like google wallet people who are smart want apple pay to take off as both require the same tech out of the retailer so if one does well the other one should do fine.

As is, they actually used a system that might take off easier since it is already more supported by current tech already at retailers. Thing is, is it as secure as ApplePay/NFC? If not, that kind of sucks but I doubt that will be what decides which one takes off (most people don't care or are unaware). Which is too bad.

 

[kdarling]

Why do you say they're going backward? LoopPay as it exists today (cloning physical cards) will cease to function most places with most cards by the end of the year. It will only cause "card must be inserted" messages.

I think you meant to say, "will NOT cease to function most places".

LoopPay's announced strategy is to use tokenised dynamic magnetic stripe data, the EXACT SAME way Apple Pay works at merchants without EMV support (which is virtually all of them in the US).

A tiny bit of research shows that you're right. LoopPay was talking about tokenization at least as far back as 2013.

This requires bank support, to issue these tracks. Just like Apple Pay.

Yep, here's an article from March 2014 talking about using bank based tokenization.

Interesting. If LoopPay gets the banks / networks to issue tokens to them, then then it'll be a secure contactless payment solution that works at 8 million locations in the US, not just the (currently 220K) ones with NFC... including the places that have turned off NFC to support MCX.

 

[AllieNeko]

I think you meant to say, "will NOT cease to function most places".


A tiny bit of research shows that you're right. LoopPay was talking about tokenization at least as far back as 2013.



Yep, here's an article from March 2014 talking about using bank based tokenization.

Interesting. If LoopPay gets the banks / networks to issue tokens to them, then then it'll be a secure contactless payment solution that works at 8 million locations in the US, not just the (currently 220K) ones with NFC... including the places that have turned off NFC to support MCX.

No. I meant WILL cease to function most places by the end of the year. The terminals will see the 201 service code from the cloned track data and request a chip read.

Tokenised and dynamic data would have a 101 service code and continue to work, but they aren't there yet.

 

[kdarling]

No. I meant WILL cease to function most places by the end of the year. The terminals will see the 201 service code from the cloned track data and request a chip read.

Oh, you meant if the original was a chip card, with a service code of 2xx.

The way things are going in the US, chip cards will still be in the minority at the end of this year.

Not to mention that only about half the terminals will be upgraded for chip acceptance by the deadline, according to the latest surveys I've seen.

So LoopPay will still be working for most people's current non-chip credit and debit cards (and gift cards), and even with chip cards in many places that aren't ready yet.

 

[AllieNeko]

Oh, you meant if the original was a chip card, with a service code of 2xx.

The way things are going in the US, chip cards will still be in the minority at the end of this year.

Not to mention that only about half the terminals will be upgraded for chip acceptance by the deadline, according to the latest surveys I've seen.

So LoopPay will still be working for most people's current non-chip credit and debit cards (and gift cards), and even with chip cards in many places that aren't ready yet.

I don't know about you, but I have 12 US-issued bank cards and 11 of them are chip cards (all 10 credit cards, and one of the two debit cards).

Yes, a bit over half of terminals best-case, but the vast majority of transactions. Remember that Walmart, Target, Costco, Kroger, etc represent most transactions.

 

[hrMACnstuff]

google, microsoft, samsung, microsoft all follow apples lead

the next big thing is whatever apple does. nothing new here, move along.

 

[kaldezar]

Wake up and smell the coffee!

Oh, you meant if the original was a chip card, with a service code of 2xx.

The way things are going in the US, chip cards will still be in the minority at the end of this year.

Not to mention that only about half the terminals will be upgraded for chip acceptance by the deadline, according to the latest surveys I've seen.

So LoopPay will still be working for most people's current non-chip credit and debit cards (and gift cards), and even with chip cards in many places that aren't ready yet.

Unfortunately you are totally focused on a minority of credit/debit users, the vast majority of the WORLDS transactions are chip and pin, magnetic stripes and signing are reserved for technologically backward countries like the USA. Samsung buying loop pay is just a desperate and irrelevant investment in a dying technology which will wither and die even quicker due to the advent of Apple Pay.

 

[AllieNeko]

Unfortunately you are totally focused on a minority of credit/debit users, the vast majority of the WORLDS transactions are chip and pin, magnetic stripes and signing are reserved for technologically backward countries like the USA. Samsung buying loop pay is just a desperate and irrelevant investment in a dying technology which will wither and die even quicker due to the advent of Apple Pay.

Even Samsung isn't seeing LoopPay as the future of technology. Rather, they're seeing it with dynamic tokenised data as a way around the many, many retailers in the US who refuse to enable contactless payments and probably never WILL allow them. NFC will remain the preferred tech.

And Apple is a follower, not a leader, in NFC.

 

[jimerman]

Rival!?

Please explain to me exactly how Loop Pay is a rival? Is this kind of like how old fashioned record sales were a rival to iTunes? Apple Pay, as they have stressed, is not your granddad's credit card payment. It does NOT transmit your card info, which is where the theft and fraud begin. And, it DOES work online. And, it DOES require biometric authentication to verify your identity each time you make a purchase, adding another layer to security. So, good that you got my attention with a misleading headline, but I expect better journalism from MacRumors.

 

[Michael Goff]

Please explain to me exactly how Loop Pay is a rival? Is this kind of like how old fashioned record sales were a rival to iTunes? Apple Pay, as they have stressed, is not your granddad's credit card payment. It does NOT transmit your card info, which is where the theft and fraud begin. And, it DOES work online. And, it DOES require biometric authentication to verify your identity each time you make a purchase, adding another layer to security. So, good that you got my attention with a misleading headline, but I expect better journalism from MacRumors.

You really can't see how one mobile payment solution competes with another?

 

[kdarling]

Unfortunately you are totally focused on a minority of credit/debit users, the vast majority of the WORLDS transactions are chip and pin, magnetic stripes and signing are reserved for technologically backward countries like the USA.

It was because of most of the world being technically backward that chip & pin came about. Chip & pin was mostly a solution created 20 years ago to enable offline transactions due to poor European/etc communications infrastructure.

OTOH, virtually every card present transaction in the USA has been done online for a couple of decades. There was no need for a card chip to make an offline decision.

As for "minority"... over 1/3 of the world's card transactions occur in the US by count, totaling four trillion dollars a year. A good portion of that will still be done via mag stripe for years to come.

Samsung buying loop pay is just a desperate and irrelevant investment in a dying technology which will wither and die even quicker due to the advent of Apple Pay.

Half the US doesn't own a phone that can even run Apple Pay, and that's even more true of the rest of the world.

As for LoopPay being a deadend, sure, eventually. But that's years away. In the meantime, it'd be handy to be able to choose either NFC, or LoopPay if NFC isn't available.

 

[AllieNeko]

It was because of most of the world being technically backward that chip & pin came about. Chip & pin was mostly a solution created 20 years ago to enable offline transactions due to poor European/etc communications infrastructure.

That's not as true as US banks like to claim. It's not POOR infrastructure, but rather the cost of calls if you dial-up for each call. Phone calls in many European countries used to cost a lot. Chip and PIN, offline, enabled a terminal to dial-in less often and saved a lot of short but costly one-minute long distance calls.

Long distance wasn't cheap in the US, either, though it was cheaper. It's easy to forget but phone line cost used to be a significant part of the cost of processing, especially if there was no local number where you lived. Most European countries didn't have free local calls either, just reduced cost. So, best case (local number) each transaction would have an additional cost of, say 5p for the phone call going up to maybe 25p for a national rate number (not the $2.00 widely claimed, but at one point that was about 50 cents...)

At this time in the US, there was a cost but only if you couldn't dial-up to a local number (no charge for local calls), and then it was a bit lower (though not that much lower, long distance was pricey).

 

[Palladium SG]

As a Note 3 user who saw how Samsung failed spectacularly in something trivial like skinning Android I can totally see how their pay ecosystem can succeed.

 

[nviz22]

Unlike Apple, Samsung will have access to a larger user base in theory. If it uses NFC like iPhone 6/6+ and the iPad Air 2, the S3-S5, Note 2-Note 4, etc have had NFC for awhile. If Samsung really wants to support Samsung Pay, allowing their user base to download an app off the Galaxy App store (specifically for Samsung only) could save time from updating an OS overall on various devices and just use the app to work in tandem w/ NFC to make payments. The other thing is linking Samsung Pay to Fingerprint Scanners as the Note 4 and S5 are the major devices that have one. So it will only grow from their 2014 user base and into the future. It will be interesting to see though. Go Samsung, go.

 

[HenryDJP]

Google Wallet? An "also ran"? LOL. Google Wallet is the more powerful of the two between itself and ApplePay.

Now, as far as this Samsung acquisition, I hope it dies a slow and painful death...much like I do about all of Samsung's Android devices.

You realize Apple was the one playing catch up here, right? Google Wallet was out long before Apple Pay was a thing.

Just because you feel Google didn't get anywhere with Google Wallet doesn't make it so. You've been able to use it in stores that accept NFC payments for years. You've been able to use Google Wallet to make purchases online for years. You've also been able to get a physical card hooked in to your Google Wallet account for years.

lol, Apple Pay most certainly did not leave Google Wallet 'in the dust instantly.' To this day, Google Wallet is still accepted at more places than Apple Pay is.

I mentioned it in a previous comment already, but:

1) ability to be used anywhere NFC payments are accepted.
2) ability to be used to make online purchases all over the internet.
3) option to receive a physical card that is attached to your Google Wallet account (great if you want to set it up as a prepaid debit card for kids/or if you're on a strict budget).
4) webpage that shows list of purchases made.
5) Immediate notifications when Google Wallet account has been used to make a purchase.

Nobody mentioned it here because Apple lovers didn't have anything to compare it too, lol. Now that they do, they're the first to say, "Google Wallet sucks. Freakin' copycats."

I guess it's safe to say you're a "Google Lover".

 

[kuwxman]

I guess it's safe to say you're a "Google Lover".

As well as an 'Apple lover.' I'm just not blinded by 'Apple being the bestestest' like most of the posters on this forum... EVERY single time there is an article about anything Google related out come the haters without being able to appreciate both companies. It is downright childish and the very reason people hate people that own Apple products.

 

[Trapezoid]

As well as an 'Apple lover.' I'm just not blinded by 'Apple being the bestestest' like most of the posters on this forum... EVERY single time there is an article about anything Google related out come the haters without being able to appreciate both companies. It is downright childish and the very reason people hate people that own Apple products.

Happens on both sides.

 

[HenryDJP]

As well as an 'Apple lover.' I'm just not blinded by 'Apple being the bestestest' like most of the posters on this forum... EVERY single time there is an article about anything Google related out come the haters without being able to appreciate both companies. It is downright childish and the very reason people hate people that own Apple products.

I think that's your own personal feelings and honestly you need to calm down and get over it. I don't know a single person that hates me or any of my other friends and business associates that use Apple products exclusively.

And please give yourself a reality check. The same happens against Apple on Google, Windows and Samsung forums. Before Apple got big people being seen in public cafe's with a Mac notebook would get the evil eye. I've had Windows fanboys walk right up to me years back and say, "What are you using that useless MacinTrash for? There's no software for it and nobody uses Macs".

That was ground for me to knock those people in their heads for saying that to my face.
So before you accuse Apple fans of being snobby and rude, just know it went back years ago from Windows fanboys treating Mac users as second classed citizens just because Apple was a small company and Macs were generally used for professionals and not for the masses at the time.

P.S. I highly doubt that you're an "Apple Lover" of any kind. You've spent much time promoting Google and bashing Apple.

 

[kuwxman]

I think that's your own personal feelings and honestly you need to calm down and get over it. I don't know a single person that hates me or any of my other friends and business associates that use Apple products exclusively.

And please give yourself a reality check. The same happens against Apple on Google, Windows and Samsung forums. Before Apple got big people being seen in public cafe's with a Mac notebook would get the evil eye. I've had Windows fanboys walk right up to me years back and say, "What are you using that useless MacinTrash for? There's no software for it and nobody uses Macs".

That was ground for me to knock those people in their heads for saying that to my face.
So before you accuse Apple fans of being snobby and rude, just know it went back years ago from Windows fanboys treating Mac users as second classed citizens just because Apple was a small company and Macs were generally used for professionals and not for the masses at the time.

P.S. I highly doubt that you're an "Apple Lover" of any kind. You've spent much time promoting Google and bashing Apple.

You might want to read more stories from various users/get out a little more if you truly feel what I've said is solely my opinion alone. The hate of Apple folks has been talked about for years...

On the flip side of that, you should check out MKBHD's YouTube channel to see how an Apple user coexist's with Google/Android products nicely. He is, by far, the best tech reviewer out there at the moment. He also makes it known that he is a lover of Apple as you can see OS X running over his shoulder plus the various Apple products laying around. But at the same time still prefer Google's suite of apps for their cross device connectivity. Would be great if more MacRumors members could be enlightened to that fact as well: Apple is good, but they're not the be all end all.

I would also love to see where I've "bashed" Apple anywhere, lol...as I type this on my Apple keyboard which is connected to my MacBook Pro in clamshell mode which is sending the picture through my Apple Cinema Display and posting these words here thanks to the WiFi powered by my Airport Extreme and being extended by my Airport Express. I might check later to see if you've wasted anymore keystrokes from my iPhone 6 Plus as well. Might purchase something with Google Wallet too for good measure.

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Happens on both sides.

Can't argue with that. Being a huge sports fan, I see it in that world too.

 

[BigInDallas]

You might want to read more stories from various users/get out a little more if you truly feel what I've said is solely my opinion alone. The hate of Apple folks has been talked about for years...

On the flip side of that, you should check out MKBHD's YouTube channel to see how an Apple user coexist's with Google/Android products nicely. He is, by far, the best tech reviewer out there at the moment. He also makes it known that he is a lover of Apple as you can see OS X running over his shoulder plus the various Apple products laying around. But at the same time still prefer Google's suite of apps for their cross device connectivity. Would be great if more MacRumors members could be enlightened to that fact as well: Apple is good, but they're not the be all end all.

I would also love to see where I've "bashed" Apple anywhere, lol...as I type this on my Apple keyboard which is connected to my MacBook Pro in clamshell mode which is sending the picture through my Apple Cinema Display and posting these words here thanks to the WiFi powered by my Airport Extreme and being extended by my Airport Express. I might check later to see if you've wasted anymore keystrokes from my iPhone 6 Plus as well. Might purchase something with Google Wallet too for good measure.

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Can't argue with that. Being a huge sports fan, I see it in that world too.

Dont even try to argue a point with him. His best argument is "your a Google guy, go away"

 

[JAT]

That was a myth started by bad reporting.

Contactless payments have always been "card present". Google Wallet, Softcard, Apple Pay, all the same.

I don't understand. Are you saying prior business deals with different companies are proof of Apple's negotiations? Apple gets a cut that they had to work out with the banks. I suppose there is a non-zero chance that P/NP didn't come up, but....

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I think that's your own personal feelings and honestly you need to calm down and get over it. I don't know a single person that hates me or any of my other friends and business associates that use Apple products exclusively.

And please give yourself a reality check. The same happens against Apple on Google, Windows and Samsung forums. Before Apple got big people being seen in public cafe's with a Mac notebook would get the evil eye. I've had Windows fanboys walk right up to me years back and say, "What are you using that useless MacinTrash for? There's no software for it and nobody uses Macs".

I'm confused. Which of the bolded is your opinion?

 

[kdarling]

I don't understand. Are you saying prior business deals with different companies are proof of Apple's negotiations? Apple gets a cut that they had to work out with the banks. I suppose there is a non-zero chance that P/NP didn't come up, but

There was zero need to make any such deal. All contactless payments are already "card present" by their very nature and definition.

All merchants with a card reader are classified as "card present merchants".

It doesn't matter if it's a real card or an NFC device emulating a card. To the reader, it's the same thing. A "card" has been presented.

--

What Apple could've perhaps tried to negotiate, is the status of Apple Pay within apps. However, nothing changed there, either. Those are still CNP.

 

[Topyoy]

True but still samsung didn't copy anything. The whole idea of secure tokens has been talked about long before apple pay.

The idea to fly existed in the dreams and hearts of men since they looked at the sky. Yet, it was the Wright Brothers who actually achieved it.

It matters not who thought about it. It matters who executes correctly.

Google Wallet was a great idea years ahead of everyone. But the adaptation to real life was mediocre.

Apple Pay works fantastic and works so well that card issuers endorce it.
Copying your magnetic strip is not a big deal. That start up that keeps promising to launch their product "any time now" Coin, has been proposing that for years now.

The big deal is to get someone like American Express who depends greatly on the image of presenting and using their cards to say to Apple, "yes we will give you a little bit of the money we make if people choose to use our cards using your system."

 

[charlituna]

Three hours to request a new card?! That provider would be losing my custom.

Yep. Target is a huge company with a huge audience. As was my bank of the time. So tons of users needing cards and the bank decided to push all of them to phone support rather than having the bank branches handle it. So long ass phone waits to talk to someone since you couldn't just go online either.

As it happens, for other reasons I left that bank several weeks later. For one that supported Apple Pay at launch. So I didn't have to worry if their reaction was going to be as crappy since I had been using said program at the time of the Staples hack

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I'm confused. What card were you replacing on Apple Pay?

If it was a virtual Apple Pay one, why "replace" it at all? It's not like the token can be used by itself even if it was stolen

My bank forced me to. I actually didn't know about the possible hack until I tried to buy something and the card was declined. I had another card to use at that moment and went to find out what was going on. Found out that there was a possible hack and the bank put every account that had been cleared a transaction with Staples merchant code into mandatory fraud check. But if it's an Apple Pay number they just won't take it anymore. Likely cause of some idiot not understanding how the system works and being uber paranoid.

Regardless I went home, checked that all my transactions had cleared the bank to avoid any potential issues, signed into icloud etc and had a new number within a couple of minutes.

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Please explain to me exactly how Loop Pay is a rival?

Until it and Apple Pay can be used on all phones regardless of OS it's not. Folks aren't using to use Apple Pay v Loop Pay based solely on the payment system they want to use. They are forced into one or the other by their choice of phones. People aren't likely to switch phones based on the payment system.

I'm happy that Samsung users will potentially have the opportunity to have an Apple Pay like system and I don't mind that Ssmsumg ’copied' Apple on this since its a major issue for everyone. I don't think Apple minds either. But I will call out anyone that calls this an Apple Pay killer since they aren't competition.