Samsung Falling Behind Apple in AR/VR Space Due to 'Obsession' With Foldable Smartphones

[ninethirty]

The definition of a brick varies from person to person. For some the pro max iPhones are bricks but to those that like big phones they aren’t. The pro max is a heavy phone. The fold isn’t much heavier and you get much more.

Well it's not something we're going to need to worry about anyway. Apple isn't going to be releasing a foldable phone.

 

[spinedoc77]

I think tablet sized screens have a time and a place and isn't while I'm walking down the street or doing every day life stuff. Nearly everyone carries a bag of some sort and fitting an iPad into the bag isn't an issue. Phones are wildly convenient, both for what they do, and their size.

I would bet that the vast majority of consumers would reject a phone that can unfold into the size of a tablet, if it meant carrying a brick around in your pocket all day.

Foldable area a solution in search of a problem. I'll say that over and over again because it's true.

I think tablet sized screens have a time and a place, sometimes it's while I'm walking down the street, very often it's when I'm doing every day life stuff. I never carry a bag of any sort so fitting an iPad into my pocket is a big deal. A tablet sized screen that shrinks to fit into my front pocket is wildy convenient, both for what it does, and it's size. See, I can do the anecdotal stuff too. Let me just quantify that I'm not trying to change your use case, you are certainly entitled to that, but to blanket every other consumer in the world to that use case doesn't make sense.

Foldables (better put as any shrinkable screen phone) are one solution to the existing problem of consumers wanting larger screens with the same portability as today's smartphone. I'll keep saying that because, while not a problem for you, it's most definitely a problem for many consumers including myself. I admire how deep you can bury your head in the sand though, impressive.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

It worked pretty well. I just never had much time to play it.

Yeah, even in the pandemic, I've only powered on my X Box twice. Played Diablo III, and died after an hour and a half. *sigh* Playing a female character and it's slaughtering darn near everything, except the monsters at the bottom of the, CAN'T REMEMBER... I was so looking forward to moving to a new level, but now everything is down 10%, and not feeling the call as much anymore.

 

[ninethirty]

I think tablet sized screens have a time and a place, sometimes it's while I'm walking down the street, very often it's when I'm doing every day life stuff. I never carry a bag of any sort so fitting an iPad into my pocket is a big deal. A tablet sized screen that shrinks to fit into my front pocket is wildy convenient, both for what it does, and it's size. See, I can do the anecdotal stuff too. Let me just quantify that I'm not trying to change your use case, you are certainly entitled to that, but to blanket every other consumer in the world to that use case doesn't make sense.

Foldables (better put as any shrinkable screen phone) are one solution to the existing problem of consumers wanting larger screens with the same portability as today's smartphone. I'll keep saying that because, while not a problem for you, it's most definitely a problem for many consumers including myself. I admire how deep you can bury your head in the sand though, impressive.

Let's let time tell. You feel free to embarrass me when Apple releases a foldable smartphone. Don't worry, I'm going to wait.

 

[spinedoc77]

Let's let time tell. You feel free to embarrass me when Apple releases a foldable smartphone. Don't worry, I'm going to wait.

What does Apple releasing a foldable smartphone have to do with embarrasing you, I don't get it? My aim isn't to embarass you, I've tried hard to not do that, rather I'd love for you to realize that there are many consumers out there who do find folding, shrinking, whatever you want to call them, phone screens highly useful as a solution to carrying around a larger screen.

Saying inane statements like "solution in search of a problem" basically discounts anyone who doesn't think like you. Imagine if someone 8 years ago said "larger phone screens are just a solution in search of a problem," well I'm sure there were people saying that at the time and maybe they still do.

 

[ninethirty]

What does Apple releasing a foldable smartphone have to do with embarrasing you, I don't get it? My aim isn't to embarass you, I've tried hard to not do that, rather I'd love for you to realize that there are many consumers out there who do find folding, shrinking, whatever you want to call them, phone screens highly useful as a solution to carrying around a larger screen.

Saying inane statements like "solution in search of a problem" basically discounts anyone who doesn't think like you. Imagine if someone 8 years ago said "larger phone screens are just a solution in search of a problem," well I'm sure there were people saying that at the time and maybe they still do.

By your logic, anything makes sense for mass production if a few people are interested in it. Because that's all this is. People fascinated by the idea of a screen that folds. The masses aren't asking for this or finding that they need it.

Foldables are a fad, nothing more. They don't serve any real practical purpose sought after by the majority of consumers, and the trade offs for being able to have a much larger screen in your pocket for that small subset of people isn't worth it.

They're a solution in search of a problem, and they aren't ever going to be a thing unless technology advances to the point of them being as thin as phones are now. Even then, I really doubt most people would care.

I'll give you a somewhat relevant, but opposite comparison. When the Apple Watch came out, people in this forum would routinely complain about how clunky it is to carry around a phone, and they couldn't wait to stop relying on it and instead move everything to their wrist. This was absurd of course, but people ran with it anyway. "Phones were going away, you'll see!!!!" Of course that never happened, and while people do like the Apple Watch, it hasn't replaced people's phones at all. Now you're going on about how you need a BIGGER thicker phone... for reasons. It ain't happening.

The size of most phones today (excluding the obnoxious huge ones, which are hilarious to watch people try to use in any sort of easy manner) are perfect for single handed use, in on the go situations, and they easily fit in your pocket without being uncomfortable or creating an obscene looking bulge in your clothes. I work in user experience and usability. I don't think I've ever once heard a person in any session say "I'm finding this app/page hard to use because I just don't have enough real-estate. If only I could be on an iPad instead." Different devices with different sizes make sense for different situations in our lives.

I may be wrong, but I would bet money that while Apple might be exploring the idea of foldables, that they're going to arrive at similar conclusions, and avoid them altogether. Not only for the reasons mentioned above, but also because doing so would cannabalize their own product lineup, and they'd be forced to nearly double the cost of phones just to make up for what they'd lose in iPad sales. All so we can carry bigger thicker phones in our pockets that most people would only be annoyed by.

 

[spinedoc77]

By your logic, anything makes sense for mass production if a few people are interested in it. Because that's all this is. People fascinated by the idea of a screen that folds. The masses aren't asking for this or finding that they need it.

Foldables are a fad, nothing more. They don't serve any real practical purpose sought after by the majority of consumers, and the trade offs for being able to have a much larger screen in your pocket for that small subset of people isn't worth it.

They're a solution in search of a problem, and they aren't ever going to be a thing unless technology advances to the point of them being as thin as phones are now. Even then, I really doubt most people would care.

I'll give you a somewhat relevant, but opposite comparison. When the Apple Watch came out, people in this forum would routinely complain about how clunky it is to carry around a phone, and they couldn't wait to stop relying on it and instead move everything to their wrist. This was absurd of course, but people ran with it anyway. "Phones were going away, you'll see!!!!" Of course that never happened, and while people do like the Apple Watch, it hasn't replaced people's phones at all. Now you're going on about how you need a BIGGER thicker phone... for reasons. It ain't happening.

The size of most phones today (excluding the obnoxious huge ones, which are hilarious to watch people try to use in any sort of easy manner) are perfect for single handed use, in on the go situations, and they easily fit in your pocket without being uncomfortable or creating an obscene looking bulge in your clothes. I work in user experience and usability. I don't think I've ever once heard a person in any session say "I'm finding this app/page hard to use because I just don't have enough real-estate. If only I could be on an iPad instead." Different devices with different sizes make sense for different situations in our lives.

I may be wrong, but I would bet money that while Apple might be exploring the idea of foldables, that they're going to arrive at similar conclusions, and avoid them altogether. Not only for the reasons mentioned above, but also because doing so would cannabalize their own product lineup, and they'd be forced to nearly double the cost of phones just to make up for what they'd lose in iPad sales. All so we can carry bigger thicker phones in our pockets that most people would only be annoyed by.

Having a larger screen that fits into a pocket isn't a fad, and I'll go on record and say IMO some sort of shrinkable screen will be ubiquitous in the next 5 years or so, feel free to come back and prove me wrong. They will be ubiquitous just like "phablets" are today, even in spite of naysayers with lack of vision.

Apple Watch has nothing to do with shrinkable screens, sure some can make them work as full fledged phones, but most consumers choose to still have a phone. But it's an entirely different paradigm and really not comparable to what we are talking about, so I don't really see the point you are making?

The size of most phones today are actually not very usable one handed, unless you have giant hands, and I have pretty large hands. But let me guess, the "obnoxious huge ones" are which ones? The iPhone 13 pro max? Or just the vanilla iPhone 6" screen? It seems like now you are against "obnoxious huge" phones as well, lol, guess what that ship has passed and left you on the dock waving buh bye. Interestingly enough having a 6.3" screen Samsung Mega 8 or 9 years ago would have caused many stares and head turns, most likely how shrinking screens today do but won't in a year or 2. But no one bats an eye these days at a Pro Max 6.7" display. PS: just my anecdotal experience but my Fold 3 actually fits better into my front pocket than my iPhone 13 pro max because it's narrower, but you don't see me going on a rant about how wide my 13 pro max is. Still, I don't deny that they need to get thinner, no argument there, but to throw out the entire paradigm based on a single model in what is a very early time is just having no forward vision at all.

You never heard anyone say they wish they had a larger screen for an app, webpage, video, etc? I call BS on that one. Again just look back on the history of smartphones and how the screens are getting ever larger and larger year after year. Jeez, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to even look at computer monitors or television screens growing in size. Come on man, it's really really not brain surgery we are talking about here.

Apple might have no choice but to have some sort of shrinkable screen as they become ubiquitous, pretty much how they released a "phablet" because that's what consumers wanted. Sure they will hold out as long as they can, and I completely agree that the reasoning behind the scenes will be because they don't want to cannibalize sales. But eventually they will come to a point where consumers ask why they can't shrink down their tablet screens, or size up their phones.

So take 23, shrinkable screens are one way to solve the problem of wanting a larger screen that can still fit into a front pocket.

Edit: Wait, I think I found the perfect picture which might demonstrate screens getting larger over time, even one dinosaurs can relate to.

But in all seriousness (no seriously this time) here you go:

My favorite subconscious saying: "Larger screen phones are a solution in search of a problem."

Here is a nice summarized one:

 

[TheSapient]

They're a solution in search of a problem,

My wife can't fit a candy bar style phone in the pockets of most of her pants. That's a problem that is common, and one that the Z Flip line of phones was addressing. It is easy to accept that you personally have no need for such a thing. It is possible that the costs of developing such devices won't make sense in the long run. But to position arguments on the idea that foldables don't address real problems means that all your conclusions are resting on an obviously false assumption.

FWIW, my wife is no techie. She doesn't hang out on tech websites. She doesn't care what other people think of her devices. She just likes a capable phone she can easily keep on her person.

 

[ninethirty]

so, feel free to come back and prove me wrong.

I will.

 

[Abazigal]

@spinedoc77 AR glasses seems to the solution to larger screen sizes that Apple is working on, rather than folding phones.

Seems like we can all agree on the problem we would like to see solved, but different people and companies have different approaches to tackling this issue.

Time will tell whose approach is the right one.

 

[spinedoc77]

@spinedoc77 AR glasses seems to the solution to larger screen sizes that Apple is working on, rather than folding phones.

Seems like we can all agree on the problem we would like to see solved, but different people and companies have different approaches to tackling this issue.

Time will tell whose approach is the right one.

I think AR *might* be one long term solution, but I don't think that's going to be an everyday consumer solution just yet for many reasons I've gone into before. One reason is that in many ways an AR system is built to be more of a companion to a screen and not a replacement, I just don't see how it's going to replace a fully opaque physical screen both in quality and in terms of UI. Expense is another reason, aren't analysts predicting Apple's AR will be 2-3k or something like that? There also needs to be a robust underpinning to AR, which means that things like browsing a website and using an app will have to be totally revamped for a new paradigm, that's going to take a heck of a long time. Finally there is comfort, even if they shrink the glasses down to a "regular" pair of glasses, many consumers still won't wear them, or will switch them out when they need sunglasses, etc. The better long term solution would be contacts or something like Musk's Neuralink, but we are pretty far away from anything like that.

I also really dislike when screen solutions are addressed as "folding phones" or "foldables," that just misses the point of the entire paradigm of a shrinking screen. What may end up sticking as the most viable solution may be rollable screens, or it may be some other paradigm not invented yet. But it seems to me that physically shrinking screens are much much closer than a truly viable AR system.

 

[Abazigal]

I think AR *might* be one long term solution, but I don't think that's going to be an everyday consumer solution just yet for many reasons I've gone into before. One reason is that in many ways an AR system is built to be more of a companion to a screen and not a replacement, I just don't see how it's going to replace a fully opaque physical screen both in quality and in terms of UI. Expense is another reason, aren't analysts predicting Apple's AR will be 2-3k or something like that? There also needs to be a robust underpinning to AR, which means that things like browsing a website and using an app will have to be totally revamped for a new paradigm, that's going to take a heck of a long time. Finally there is comfort, even if they shrink the glasses down to a "regular" pair of glasses, many consumers still won't wear them, or will switch them out when they need sunglasses, etc. The better long term solution would be contacts or something like Musk's Neuralink, but we are pretty far away from anything like that.

I also really dislike when screen solutions are addressed as "folding phones" or "foldables," that just misses the point of the entire paradigm of a shrinking screen. What may end up sticking as the most viable solution may be rollable screens, or it may be some other paradigm not invented yet. But it seems to me that physically shrinking screens are much much closer than a truly viable AR system.

People like to point to the Note as an example of how Samsung’s innovation has redefined the smartphone market, but they often fail to also mention the dozens of other features that end up being gimmicks.

I am still of the opinion that folding screens are more akin to edge displays than phablets in the sense that they represent a design trend that hasn’t exactly taken off, rather than a revolution in smartphone form factors.

My reasoning for this is that I see folding phones as tablets that I have to unfold to use. I take it out of my pocket, unfold it, then fold it back in half after use before keeping it in my pocket. I don’t see how this can be considered a great user experience at all.

And if I don’t unfold it, I have an awkward form factor (too thick and narrow) that makes one wonder why I didn’t just stick with a conventional smartphone in the first place.

And if it’s extra extra screen estate we want, smartwatches answer this by placing a display on our wrists that we can access simply by raising them. AR glasses take this to the next level by placing the display right in front of our faces where we can then access them without even having to lift a finger. Vs a folding display I have to consciously manipulate.

One can perhaps argue that these are not mutually exclusive. That I can have a folding iPhone paired to an Apple Watch and AR glasses. And who knows - maybe we will end up seeing both from Apple.

But I can certainly see why Apple’s priorities are where they are.

 

[spinedoc77]

People like to point to the Note as an example of how Samsung’s innovation has redefined the smartphone market, but they often fail to also mention the dozens of other features that end up being gimmicks.

I am still of the opinion that folding screens are more akin to edge displays than phablets in the sense that they represent a design trend that hasn’t exactly taken off, rather than a revolution in smartphone form factors.

My reasoning for this is that I see folding phones as tablets that I have to unfold to use. I take it out of my pocket, unfold it, then fold it back in half after use before keeping it in my pocket. I don’t see how this can be considered a great user experience at all.

And if I don’t unfold it, I have an awkward form factor (too thick and narrow) that makes one wonder why I didn’t just stick with a conventional smartphone in the first place.

And if it’s extra extra screen estate we want, smartwatches answer this by placing a display on our wrists that we can access simply by raising them. AR glasses take this to the next level by placing the display right in front of our faces where we can then access them without even having to lift a finger. Vs a folding display I have to consciously manipulate.

One can perhaps argue that these are not mutually exclusive. That I can have a folding iPhone paired to an Apple Watch and AR glasses. And who knows - maybe we will end up seeing both from Apple.

But I can certainly see why Apple’s priorities are where they are.

I think we can agree to disagree fundamentally. Personally I don't care if "foldables" are particularly viable, my entire point has always been the paradigm of shrinking screens, foldable or not. However, personally I do find foldables to be more useful than a vanilla smartphone exactly because they unfold and provide a larger screen. Do they have drawbacks, such as having to unfold them each time you take them out (well not fully true as obviously you can still use the outer screen closed)? Sure they do, but IMO the positives far outweigh the negatives, but this is highly subjective and each consumer will have to decide. I'll give you another very subjective opinion, the Fold 3, for me, is actually a lot less awkward form factor than my iphone 13 pro max. The narrow screen when closed is much easier to use one handed, in particular typing and reaching for elements on the opposite sides of the screen. In terms of thickness I find the Fold 3 fits much better in my pocket because of that narrowness, the iphone 13 pro max being so wide constricts my movement when it's in my pocket.

Any thought of why I didn't stick to a conventional smartphone vanishes instantly the second my eyes look at a tablet sized screen, the trade off is just so powerful, again IMO, for the positive. This is always a trade off, just as carrying around a tablet in a separate bag is a trade off, having to purchase 2 devices, having to charge and manage apps and information on 2 devices, etc, it's just which trade off you are willing to accept if you want both sized screens.

Do I think "foldables" will become ubuquitous? No, I see them more as a stepping stone to some sort of shrinking screen, but I also don't see AR on that continuum for a long time, arguably if ever. I can see AR replacing an Apple Watch, and feel that's an excellent analogy, something to be a companion to our screens, but not as a replacement. But I still stand behind the massive negatives and technological hurdles AR would have to go through to actually fully replace a smartphone and tablet screen, barring something unobtrusive like a contact lens or a neuralink, and ignoring the costs and massive UI hurdles, I just don't see AR ever supplanting a physical screen anytime soon. It's cool to think about and dream, but then the financial and technological hurdles get in the way.

 

[bobcomer]

(well not fully true as obviously you can still use the outer screen closed)?

That's a true statement. A Galaxy Fold is basically like a candybar phone when closed with all that functionality. A Flip3 doesn't have near full functionality on the outside screen, but there are things you can do like taking calls and such. The Motorola Razr had more functionality on the outside screen than the Flip3.