Samsung Lawyers Also Struggle to Tell iPad and Galaxy Tab Apart

[gnasher729]

The Lawyer was not in a situation that an average person would be in. He was 10 feet away from both devices. OF COURSE you wouldn't be able to see the difference.

If you had an iPad, Samsung tablet, Toshiba tablet, and Sony tablet, you would very easily tell the Toshiba and Sony tablet apart, even from a larger distance. The iPad and Samsung, you wouldn't. Which is exactly the point that Apple makes. And the confusion is not about people holding them side by side and not seeing which is which, but people who see a Samsung tablet on its own and think it is an iPad.

No matter what we think about this particular comparison, Samsung has screwed themselves.

Not only is Samsung starting to lose (or at best "tie") these battles in courts all over the globe - but they have pissed off Apple.

Samsung makes memory and processing chips. Apple was Samsung's largest customer. Apple has already started shifting to other vendors, and ultimately Samsung is going to lose significantly more than they stood to gain by suing Apple.

Samsung cut off their nose with no consideration for their face...

I'd love to see what is going on inside Samsung. "Well, my dear VP of ARM processors, can you explain what kind of incompetence of yours caused you to sell 80 million chips less than last year?" "No incompetence at all, but the bloody idiots making the tablets upsetting my best customer who promptly left for TMSC, and who is threatening to stop buying our Flash memory and displays as well!"

 

[marksman]

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Is conceptual rather than physical as I understand it. Patent law is so damn complex and I wasnt taking sides in my post above, just making an observation. Perhaps Apple are too litigious but they have the right to defend themselves in court if they wish.

The design of the iPad is basically(On the outside), a touch screen with a bezel around it. And that's pretty much what a tablet is. There's no other way to design it. Apple should just stop suing. :|

With scores of tablets before the iPad none of which look like an iPad, you are 100% wrong.

Apple invented the look of the iPad and it was unique. Anyone claiming it is the only way to make a tablet are ignorant of reality.

 

[Winni]

Samsung Lawyers Also Struggle to Tell iPad and Galaxy Tab Apart

I usually have the same problem when I see new cars from Ford and Opel from a distance. And it's very difficult to not confuse Nutella with Nutoka from a meter distance. And let's not start with Kleenex, Tempo, Dash Ultra and no-name products for the same purposes. However, I do not see car and food companies going at each others throats because of some stupid design similarities.

And that notification system in iOS 5 still is an Android rip-off.

I wonder if Cupertino remains so sue-happy now that Steve has passed away. Litigation might buy some time, but on the long run, lawsuits like this one are not a smart thing to do.

 

[thenerdal]

My brand new LG TV and my year old LG TV both have nicely visible "LG" logos on the front. Even though there are only so many ways you can style a TV and they all kind of look alike, LG made a bezel that was styled in a particular way to call out the TV as an LG.

Samsung could have done so with their bezel. They could slap a nice prominent Samsung logo and maybe change the color fade or style just enough. But they didn't. They released the tablet looking *exactly* like an iPad.

Sony, Microsoft, Motorola, Amazon - they would all sue anyone who did the same to them. In fact, if you made a tablet and a company made one that looked exactly like yours - you would sue them too.

Apple is not the bad guy here, no kool-aid needed.

Samsung could have altered one of a hundred design considerations and prevented this whole mess. They didn't.

Links of said TV bezel. And adding a logo in the front would make it worse. It would be better on the back. I agree with the color change though. But why should Apple's iPad only be black or white?

Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 doesn't look exactly like the iPad 2. Only thing they have in common is the fact that they're both slim, they both have a touch screen with a bezel around it. I'd only sue if the appearance of the OS looked the same. But Apple is trying to ban them in Australia. Which to me, makes them the bad guy.

 

[NorCalLights]

Samsung makes memory and processing chips. Apple was Samsung's largest customer. Apple has already started shifting to other vendors, and ultimately Samsung is going to lose significantly more than they stood to gain by suing Apple.

Samsung cut off their nose with no consideration for their face...

I don't know if this is true. Samsung made the bet that it was better to be a mobile device manufacturer than a manufacturer of mobile device components.

It stands to reason that mobile device components will become increasingly commoditized and the profit margins will shrink. The short-term profits are all in components. The long-term profits are in devices.

However, if Samsung can't come out with a product that really gains some traction, they're going to lose both the short-term and the long-term.

 

[marksman]

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To be fair, that is exactly the kind of person that must be used in this sort of test. If anything the Samsung lawyers should be very familiar with the differences since they are arguing this case on Samsung's behalf -- the average person would be even less aware. The point Apple is trying to make is that only a tech-geek knows the difference and that is not sufficient. I think the average person would require a bit a scrutiny to tell the tablets apart.

To be fair again, if this were a case between Sony and Vizio over a television I'd bet the average person could not tell which was the Sony and which was the Vizio. However, I don't think there are any design patents on those televisions.

The much more interesting ruling is out of the Netherlands with regards to the 3G technologies patents. The fact that a judge has now ruled that those patents should be subject to FRAND licensing terms AND has said that Samsung's proposed terms are not in compliance with FRAND licensing is a huge win for Apple.

iPad has a button Tab doesn't. The average person would first look at both devices first before buying the device.(And it's usually on) iOS is way different than Honeycomb. I have no idea how an average person wouldn't tell the difference unless they think the iPad is the only tablet in the market......

To be fair an average person compares TV's in stores as well with the TV's being labeled.

The Lawyer was not in a situation that an average person would be in. He was 10 feet away from both devices. OF COURSE you wouldn't be able to see the difference.

Yet they could have held up a number of other tablets and easily distinguished them again just proof Samsung is infringing.

Also people need to stop bringing up product examples in marketplaces and for items where unique design patents no longer exist. Yes a lot of black tooth combs look similar. It there is no existing patent in effect protecting their design. There is for the iPhone and iPad.

 

[Winni]

so basically courts across the globe are saying:
1. samsung is ripping off apple
2. samsung is trying to bully apple with their 3G patents

and yet its the apple that gets the most flak

Yes, because Apple has always been the most sue-happy company in the IT industry. They just do not play well with others and accordingly did not make themselves many friends. Apple's world is a walled garden with a closed ecosystem in which only Apple is of significance and they don't care for anybody else. "When Apple builds a platform, it's an accident." I think Steve Ballmer said that, but I'm not sure. In any case, it hits the nail on the head. And that's why they always get so much flak when they start yet another lawsuit.

 

[tbrinkma]

He was 10 feet away from both devices. OF COURSE you wouldn't be able to see the difference.

Really?
From better than 10 feet away I can easily distinguish my MacBook Pro from the HP EliteBook I have for work, or any number of other laptops. (I can do so, open or closed, despite the fact that the back of both displays are silver metal.

I can distinguish between the Samsung monitor on my desk and the HP monitor an a co-worker's desk without difficulty from significantly further than 10 feet.

What is so special about a tablet that you think they all have to look nearly identical when viewed from the functional side?

Note: I can also distinguish the Sony tablet at the local Staples from the Samsung tablet on the same shelf as soon as I'm inside the doors (about 15 feet, before that the glare from the door glass prevents me from seeing much of anything that's more than 2 feet inside).

Prior to the iPad, there were scores of Windows Tablet PCs, all of which were easily distinguishable from one another at distances greater than 10 feet. (Not that 10 feet is a terribly long distance, it's only slightly longer than the dimension of a typical cubical.)

 

[thenerdal]

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With scores of tablets before the iPad none of which look like an iPad, you are 100% wrong.

Apple invented the look of the iPad and it was unique. Anyone claiming it is the only way to make a tablet are ignorant of reality.

Apple didn't invent the look of the iPad. Take a look at Samsung's picture frame from 2006. http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/09/samsung-digital-picture-frame-stores-pics-movies-music/

If you had an iPad, Samsung tablet, Toshiba tablet, and Sony tablet, you would very easily tell the Toshiba and Sony tablet apart, even from a larger distance. The iPad and Samsung, you wouldn't. Which is exactly the point that Apple makes. And the confusion is not about people holding them side by side and not seeing which is which, but people who see a Samsung tablet on its own and think it is an iPad.

The Tab 10.1 and the iPad are simple and thin. While the Sony and Toshiba one are not. Just because Samsung made a simple and thin tablet doesn't mean they copied Apple.

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Yet they could have held up a number of other tablets and easily distinguished them again just proof Samsung is infringing.

Also people need to stop bringing up product examples in marketplaces and for items where unique design patents no longer exist. Yes a lot of black tooth combs look similar. It there is no existing patent in effect protecting their design. There is for the iPhone and iPad.

I agree with your first statement. But the only reason the Tab and iPad look the same from 10 feet away is because they're both have a simple and thin design.

Also, this patent suing thing started after Apple did it. Comb companies could do it too if they wanted to, but that'd be stupid.

Really?
From better than 10 feet away I can easily distinguish my MacBook Pro from the HP EliteBook I have for work, or any number of other laptops. (I can do so, open or closed, despite the fact that the back of both displays are silver metal.

I can distinguish between the Samsung monitor on my desk and the HP monitor an a co-worker's desk without difficulty from significantly further than 10 feet.

What is so special about a tablet that you think they all have to look nearly identical when viewed from the functional side?

Note: I can also distinguish the Sony tablet at the local Staples from the Samsung tablet on the same shelf as soon as I'm inside the doors (about 15 feet, before that the glare from the door glass prevents me from seeing much of anything that's more than 2 feet inside).

Prior to the iPad, there were scores of Windows Tablet PCs, all of which were easily distinguishable from one another at distances greater than 10 feet. (Not that 10 feet is a terribly long distance, it's only slightly longer than the dimension of a typical cubical.)

The keyboard on the HP elitebook is different than the MBP. There are other things as well. But it just depends which elitebook you have.

I'm talking about stuff that look similar but are not the same.

Tablet PC's are not the same as the iPad. An iPad is a Tablet computer. A tablet pc is different.

 

[kurosov]

The design of the iPad is basically(On the outside), a touch screen with a bezel around it. And that's pretty much what a tablet is. There's no other way to design it. Apple should just stop suing. :|

Yet other companies have indeed designed them in other ways.

 

[scaredpoet]

Yes, because Apple has always been the most sue-happy company in the IT industry

This statement would be true if you completely ignore (which you clearly have) all of the litigation that have been lodged against Apple. There's Kodak vs Apple (dismissed), Nokia vs Apple (settled), and HTC which bought bunch of Google patents specifically for the purpose of suing Apple with them. That's just to name a few.

All of the big players leverage their patent portfolios, and not just against Apple or Apple against others. Everyone pretty much sues everyone in this environment. Most of it occurs because of inertia: the way our broken patent system works, people can patent silly things and sue the pants off other people with it. If you do not build up your own portfolio of "Intellectual Property" with which to sue the pants off others with, you have no leverage, and lose money in litigation like a sieve. So Apple, just like every other company, has little choice but to play the game in order to either force a stalemate, or recoup some judgements of their own.


I have to say though. In Samsung's case it's pretty hard to defend what they do. Anyone who's tracked Samsung through the years knows that copying other people's products is their primary business model.

Remember when the Motorola RAZR was the phone all the cool kids had, and Sprint and Motorola didn't have that good of a relationship? Samsung came to rescue with a knockoff called the Blade. I owned both phones at the time. There was NO way you couldn't say the Blade wasn't a deliberate attempt at a copy. And of course when Sprint was finally the last US carrier to sell the RAZR, the Blade was suddenly not the flagship phone Sprint was touting.

And about a year before the iPhone first came out, Blackberries were the smartphones to have. Samsung saw this, and came out with a Windows-Mobile powered knock-off of that, too. Do you honestly think the name "Blackjack" and its physical appearance were merely happy coincidences? RIM didn't think so, and sued them over it.

Samsung does make decent products. Not great, but decent. And certainly not original.

 

[DaveGee]

 

[eMace]

Are you guys STILL talking about two rectangular tablets looking the same? And the packaging? Should we patent packaging now?

AFAIK, the only patent we know about being infringed on is some multitouch finger swipe thing. The motion was too similar or something. We haven't heard any patents about how tablets look.

And you guys can tell 2 different monitors apart from far away? Really? Maybe Samsung should have added a hood ornament on top of their Tab so it didn't look too similar to the iPad.

 

[Penguissimo]

Samsung could have done so with their bezel. They could slap a nice prominent Samsung logo and maybe change the color fade or style just enough. But they didn't. They released the tablet looking *exactly* like an iPad.

They did all of these things on the back of the tablet. The two tablets are quite easily distinguishable from the back. Are we now suggesting Apple's patents on black rectangles extends to also having a patent on a logoless bezel?

 

[gnasher729]

The Tab 10.1 and the iPad are simple and thin. While the Sony and Toshiba one are not. Just because Samsung made a simple and thin tablet doesn't mean they copied Apple.

Two possibilities: Samsung's designers copied the iPad design (either because they were too lazy, or more likely because they were told to do so by management), or Samsung's designers made a design that by coincidence looks like an iPad. That surely makes a difference from a moral point of view, but from the legal point of view it doesn't make a difference at all. The only thing that counts is whether it looks like Apple's design patent or not.

And you guys can tell 2 different monitors apart from far away? Really? Maybe Samsung should have added a hood ornament on top of their Tab so it didn't look too similar to the iPad.

A few hours ago I was in the office, with a good dozen monitors at five to ten meters distance. And I can tell you that the ones that are not identical models looked very much different. Even three different Dell monitors looking very much different from five meters distance.

 

[Judas1]

Of course it'll be hard to tell them apart. They're both black rectangles without any real distinguishing features. Its not a matter of one copying the other. Its that Apple doesn't have anything "unique" in the look of their ipad.

 

[Surklyn]

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With scores of tablets before the iPad none of which look like an iPad, you are 100% wrong.

Apple invented the look of the iPad and it was unique. Anyone claiming it is the only way to make a tablet are ignorant of reality.

Stop with the scores of Tablets before the iPad. There are NONE. They are ALL full-sized laptops with a STYLUS touch screen. HARDLY a 10" touch screen computer that has no keyboard, doesn't weigh 5lbs, nor requires a stylus, nor has a less than perfect OS for the job (being generous there)...

 

[vitzr]

Apple is in a very enviable position, as this is but the beginning. Wait until it's discovered that Samsungs engineers & admin staff sit on chairs behind desks, each desk with four legs, the same number of legs as Apple uses. The "Rule Of Four" will be Samsungs demise. Desks are but a starting point. I bet if we looked in Samsungs parking lot, we'll find cars with four wheels. Four tires. Four doors, four seats, oh my, the list is endless. Between banning Samsung products from being sold, to preventing their cars from being driven... well you get the idea. Suddenly an all Apple world doesn't seem so far fetched anymore.

Nothing to decide, what a relief. Just send our monthly payments to Apple for all our needs. Thrilling indeed

 

[MrWillie]

Apple didn't invent the look of the iPad. Take a look at Samsung's picture frame from 2006. http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/09/samsung-digital-picture-frame-stores-pics-movies-music/

The old picture frame post. Picture frame and tablet. Two different things. Also Samsung doesn't sell 10 million picture frames a quarter. It's all about trade dress or product association. Try opening a burger joint and put up gold arches.

Apple is in a very enviable position, as this is but the beginning. Wait until it's discovered that Samsungs engineers & admin staff sit on chairs behind desks, each desk with four legs, the same number of legs as Apple uses. The "Rule Of Four" will be Samsungs demise. Desks are but a starting point. I bet if we looked in Samsungs parking lot, we'll find cars with four wheels. Four tires. Four doors, four seats, oh my, the list is endless. Between banning Samsung products from being sold, to preventing their cars from being driven... well you get the idea. Suddenly an all Apple world doesn't seem so far fetched anymore.

Nothing to decide, what a relief. Just send our monthly payments to Apple for all our needs. Thrilling indeed

Which were all patented by Henry Ford (I posted links several months ago. Interesting read.) All of the patents have expired, now it's public knowledge. Again try opening a burger joint and put up gold arches. How long do you think you will be in business?

 

[Judas1]

For all of you that believe Samsung copied Apple, give me a few examples of unique or distinguishing features that the Galaxy copied from the Ipad design-wise.

 

[Dr McKay]

For all of you that believe Samsung copied Apple, give me a few examples of unique or distinguishing features that the Galaxy copied from the Ipad design-wise.

It's a rectangle made up of mostly screen. Apple owns this patent.

 

[*LTD*]

Apple is in a very enviable position, as this is but the beginning. Wait until it's discovered that Samsungs engineers & admin staff sit on chairs behind desks, each desk with four legs, the same number of legs as Apple uses. The "Rule Of Four" will be Samsungs demise. Desks are but a starting point. I bet if we looked in Samsungs parking lot, we'll find cars with four wheels. Four tires. Four doors, four seats, oh my, the list is endless. Between banning Samsung products from being sold, to preventing their cars from being driven... well you get the idea. Suddenly an all Apple world doesn't seem so far fetched anymore.

Nothing to decide, what a relief. Just send our monthly payments to Apple for all our needs. Thrilling indeed

You have the option to not buy into the Apple ecosystem. If you don't buy into it, then you're not using it. There would be nothing to complain about.

But somehow, people do buy into it, and then they turn around and come here to complain about it. But they keep buying into it, complaining each time (when they know full well what Apple's philosophy is about tech), with the firm expectation that someday, after enough money has been spent on Apple gear, Apple will miraculously change and be exactly the kind of company they envisioned (no matter how outlandish this expectation.)

Too funny.

 

[fourthtunz]

You copy your biggest customer?!!!

Help me here, didn't the iPad come first?
This isn't a tv, this is whole new product category.
If Samsungs own lawyers can't tell the difference I'd say Samsung has done a pretty good job of coping the look of the iPad.
If the icons and os look similar then aren't they in fact trying to copy?
We probably shouldn't get into the fact that apple was Samsungs biggest
Customer and now Samsung has come out with a copy cat product.

 

[kdarling]

The Lawyer was not in a situation that an average person would be in. (S)he was 10 feet away from both devices. OF COURSE you wouldn't be able to see the difference.

Perhaps she is vain and nearsighted and needs glasses to see that far. Perhaps she doesn't really care about tablets. We don't know.

A lawyer behind her was able to tell the difference right away, probably from the different aspect ratio and by which one had a home button.

Holding them up sounds like a Judge Judy stunt that has little to do with potential buyer confusion:

• In real life, nobody blindly buys any tablet from ten feet away.
• In real life, buyers don't choose by a power plug or connector shape that's still inside the box.
• In real life, a buyer can try out demo tablets and immediately see how different they are.
• In real life, there are no stacks of boxes of iPads and Tabs for the taking, so it's unlikely a customer will be confused by packaging.
• In real life, a buyer has to ask for the specific model they're buying... Apple or Samsung, WiFi or not, and perhaps amount of memory... and the salesperson brings it out from storage.

It's no different than all the TVs you see in stores now. They're all flat, black and come in similar boxes. You still buy by brand, screen quality, price... not by its packaging or cable look or even shape confusion.

 

[fourthtunz]

Perhaps she is vain and nearsighted and needs glasses to see that far. Perhaps she doesn't really care about tablets. We don't know.

A lawyer behind her was able to tell the difference right away, probably from the different aspect ratio and by which one had a home button.

Holding them up sounds like a Judge Judy stunt that has little to do with potential buyer confusion:

• In real life, nobody blindly buys any tablet from ten feet away.
• In real life, buyers don't choose by a power plug or connector shape that's still inside the box.
• In real life, a buyer can try out demo tablets and immediately see how
  different they are.
• In real life, there are no stacks of boxes of iPads and Tabs for the taking, so it's unlikely a customer will be confused by packaging.
• In real life, a buyer has to ask for the specific model they're buying... Apple or Samsung, WiFi or not, and perhaps amount of memory... and the salesperson brings it out from storage.

It's no different than all the TVs you see in stores now. They're all flat, black and come in similar boxes. You still buy by brand, screen quality, price... not by its packaging or cable look or even shape confusion.

The difference is that we are not talking about a tv or a comb!
If Sumsung has tried to copy the look of and feel of an iPad Sumsung has infringed on apple's patents.