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Show me any other phone that looks like an iPhone, before the iPhone was released, which had the same impact on consumers & technology as a whole. J U S T O N E.

LG_Prada.jpg


OH BUT THAT LOOKS NOTHING LIKE AN IPHONE! ONLY AN IDIOT WOULD SAY THEY LOOK ANYTHING ALIKE! AND ANYWAY IT DOESN'T HAVE AN APP STORE OR A FANCY SUPER CONDUCTIVE ANTENNA OR FLIPBOARD OR INTEGRATED TWITTER OR WAS SO POPULAR IT CHANGED THE WORLD FOREVER SO IT DOESN'T COUNT AT ALL!

Also, you may not want how Apple operates, but in terms of business ethics, it s**** on both Samsung & Google, who are both ex-convicts.

Eh, Apple's just as bad as the rest. I remember reading an article on this very board about how Apple (blatantly!) stole the patents behind Time Machine and a bunch of other neat OSX features just because they could.

Don't assume Apple is an innocent lamb among wolves. They're just as bad as everyone else.
 
Samsung is running a shameless cloning operation. They gain marketshare by flooding the market with multiple models, their own bland ones, "iPhone" like ones and "Blackberry" like models to cover it all.
 
You mean using the same techniques to minimize their tax burdens, keeping money overseas, and using manufacturers in Brazil and China just like Samsung (and possibly Google) does? :eek:

I agree that Apple certainly hasn't been fined $22.5 million like Google has, which AFAIK, Samsung hasn't been fined for either. So exactly what constitutes "s****"?

Re: your 1st paragraph, Samsung does the same, so your point?

Re: your 2nd paragraph, READ UP. Google has tons of violations, willful even. How about Samsung? Don't even get me started. But to throw you a bone, read up on how it participated in price fixing, then all of a sudden sung like a baby girl to cut a deal. Hilarious!
 
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OH BUT THAT LOOKS NOTHING LIKE AN IPHONE! ONLY AN IDIOT WOULD SAY THEY LOOK ANYTHING ALIKE! AND ANYWAY IT DOESN'T HAVE AN APP STORE OR A FANCY SUPER CONDUCTIVE ANTENNA OR FLIPBOARD OR INTEGRATED TWITTER OR WAS SO POPULAR IT CHANGED THE WORLD FOREVER SO IT DOESN'T COUNT AT ALL!



Eh, Apple's just as bad as the rest. I remember reading an article on this very board about how Apple (blatantly!) stole the patents behind Time Machine and a bunch of other neat OSX features just because they could.

Don't assume Apple is an innocent lamb among wolves. They're just as bad as everyone else.

Was that phone commercially successful? Don't even answer.

I'm not assuming Apple is an innocent lamb. I'm saying it's more trustworthy than Google & Samsung combined.
 
Well, you see, that's what I thought Egg was talking about at first, too. However, those pane types are common in IDEs, and a developer can arrange them however they feel most comfortable. That's why our first natural reaction was to point that out.

I believe instead that Egg was talking about the overall look of the top header, which apparently in some examples online looks similar, but not in the actual app version I have.

Kdarling, the three things I highlighted were just three of the many I saw in the comparison. Each and every element of design looks very similar in all different panes and all the panes bear a close resemblance to Xcode in terms of positioning and layout.

I understand that you may have a different copy of the software but FEgg was referring to the version published on Samsung forums and official Samsung documentation.
 
Was that phone commercially successful? Don't even answer.

I'm gonna answer anyway.

You ask for a phone that came out before the iPhone that was very much like it. I show you the Prada, which, from a technological perspective, is but a dainty little skip away from being exactly like the iPhone from top to bottom. It's proof the industry was already headed in the direction Apple took, and that they didn't solely invent the modern smartphone as we know them today.

Yet it being commercially successful is somehow a point for something.

I'm not assuming Apple is an innocent lamb. I'm saying it's more trustworthy than Google & Samsung combined.

Eh. Not really. Apple steals, copies, and coerces as much as any other company out there.
 
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OH BUT THAT LOOKS NOTHING LIKE AN IPHONE! ONLY AN IDIOT WOULD SAY THEY LOOK ANYTHING ALIKE! AND ANYWAY IT DOESN'T HAVE AN APP STORE OR A FANCY SUPER CONDUCTIVE ANTENNA OR FLIPBOARD OR INTEGRATED TWITTER OR WAS SO POPULAR IT CHANGED THE WORLD FOREVER SO IT DOESN'T COUNT AT ALL!

Some people never learn. But hey, you must be right.

Eh, Apple's just as bad as the rest. I remember reading an article on this very board about how Apple (blatantly!) stole the patents behind Time Machine and a bunch of other neat OSX features just because they could.

Don't assume Apple is an innocent lamb among wolves. They're just as bad as everyone else.

First of all, please cite the article.

Second, you read the article and you made an opinion about Apple.

Third, you don't steal patents. You simply infringe on them. Apple doesn't check each and every single patent in the world before designing its solution. If you think a company becomes bad because it infringes on some patents, then you've a long way to go and be grown up enough and mature to understand how software development works.

Infringing on patents is something —

1. you cannot be always sure of or aware of
2. almost all companies 'do' or 'try to do'

Most of the patent lawsuits against Apple (before nokia, etc) were dissolved. In some cases by Apple winning them and in some by Apple negotiating with the plaintiff.

It's time to grow up and understand how the industry works.

I am not saying Apple is a saint; what I'm saying is the example you chose to present has no credit whatsoever. I can point out a hundred other examples that exhibit a very bad image of Apple. Choose your examples carefully. :)

EDIT: Looks like, my comment will not have any effect on heads with such attitude as below —

Eh. Not really. Apple steals, copies, and coerces as much as any other company out there.

No examples, just random ********.
 
I'm gonna answer anyway.

You ask for a phone that came out before the iPhone that was very much like it. I show you the Prada, which, from a technological perspective, is but a dainty little skip away from being exactly like the iPhone from top to bottom. It's proof the industry was already headed in the direction Apple took, and that they didn't solely invent the modern smartphone as we know them today.

Yet it being commercially successful is somehow a point for something.



Eh. Not really. Apple steals, copies, and coerces as much as any other company out there.

Re: your 1st point, was Samsung heading in the same direction? Or were they busy pumping out all the possible **** and clones they could because they were clueless as to where the puck will go next?

I find it funny how you people dismiss commercial success. If you're not successful, it simply means you did something wrong & failed to define the winning paradigm. Everyone in the industry got caught with their pants down.

Re: your 2nd point, well, there's really no point because you failed to provide concrete examples. I just told you to read up, & maybe you should.
 
Some people never learn. But hey, you must be right.

Yeah, and you can keep shaking your head and offering up the same pithy comment over and over again like it means something.

First of all, please cite the article.

I'll have to hope KDarling or someone has a link to it. Looking up anything about stolen patents and Apple at the moment brings you nothing more than a storm of Samsung vs. Blah links.

In before "olol you're just making it things up to make Apple look bad".

Second, you read the article and you made an opinion about Apple.

Well...yeah. That's kinda what people do. Specially when the article stated that Apple lifted dude guy whathisfaces' ideas for Time Machine and other features inherit in OSX. It was pretty damning in the sense that Apple isn't so different from the companies you lambast for doing the exact same thing.

Third, you don't steal patents. You simply infringe on them. Apple doesn't check each and every single patent in the world before designing its solution. If you think a company becomes bad because it infringes on some patents, then you've a long way to go and be grown up enough and mature to understand how software development works.

Attempting condescension in an attempt to look smart rarely ever achieves the intended effect.

I also think it's funny how in Apple's situation, you immediately assume an honest mistake, yet you've shown yourself in the past to be one of those incredibly loud people who scream about "blatantly stolen ideas" any time anyone else comes out with something similar to something Apple has done before.

Bias, favoritism, and how it colors opinions is something every grown up should understand. Right?

blah blah blah shakes head and laughs i'm a grownup wise in the ways of the world you should educate yourself cuz you're a fool for believing the things you do blah blah i'm the sole voice of reason in a crowd of mouth breathing morons herp a derp a chief transparent and rather lame attempt at wording my argument with just enough doubtful phrasing and balanced keywords so i look knowledgeable, wise and fair

....yeah. Alright then.

dbrewster said:
I find it funny how you people dismiss commercial success. If you're not successful, it simply means you did something wrong & failed to define the winning paradigm. Everyone in the industry got caught with their pants down.

I'm not dismissing commercial success altogether. I'm dismissing it as a general measurement of innovation.

Failing in the market doesn't mean there's something fundamentally wrong with your product. Maybe some company didn't have the marketing budget. Maybe it was overshadowed by some big must-have product that captured everyone's attention. Maybe it just didn't catch on at the time. Who knows. Sometimes bad products sell tons. Sometimes good products don't sell at all.

Would you consider OSX a failure, specially when compared to the roaring success of Windows? Does Windows success mean it's a better product? That there's something wrong with OSX?

No. It means nothing.
 
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In the case of Apple vs. Samsung, success plays a key role. Samsung saw how successful Apple's iPhone was. So, it set out to produce a competing product. However, it overstepped.

Look at Microsoft, it took them years, & now I believe they have a winner in Windows Phone. Is it late to market? Yes. Does it have an uphill battle? Yes. And there's nothing wrong with that because innovation takes time. People tend to dismiss Metro as ****, but at the end of the day, it's fresh, & goes against how icons should look like and behave.

Now, the same can't be said about Samsung. It took the easy way out by copying the iPhone - from icons to look & feel, which is kind of pathetic because apart from having more than enough budget, it also has good technological capabilities. It's as if it didn't even try.

So, Samsung copies the wildly successful iPhone > gains the all important mindshare & marketshare > then starts differentiating itself later on by pumping out every combination of hardware possible. Can't you see the problem in this scenario? Samsung used Apple technologies as stepping stones to get where it is now. This is precisely what Apple is arguing. Apple took the risk, but Samsung rode for free.

Apple even proposed a licensing deal for crying out loud. Don't tell me it was too expensive. Ever heard of the word "negotiations"? Of course you start with a figure way above your intended take.

Samsung is in the wrong here. It refused to invest the required time, money & effort to innovate. It also has Apple envy, which is easy to understand because how sad is it to see a successful product with many of its components coming from your company yet you can't duplicate its success?
 
Yeah, and you can keep shaking your head and offering up the same pithy comment over and over again like it means something.

Yes it means a lot. But as I guessed, nothing to you. Don't worry!

I'll have to hope KDarling or someone has a link to it. Looking up anything about stolen patents and Apple at the moment brings you nothing more than a storm of Samsung vs. Blah links.

So Kdarling has a link to what you read? Fascinating. In any case, don't feel shy and post any links to what you read about Apple.

In before "olol you're just making it things up to make Apple look bad".

That's what happens when you try to reply to a comment, quoting line by line without having read the entire comment at first.

I never said anything like that and I wasn't even close to something like that. I said — you chose a very wrong example. I said that there are other credible examples where Apple can be portrayed as unethical or in monotonous terms - a 'bad' organization.

Well...yeah. That's kinda what people do. Specially when the article stated that Apple lifted dude guy whathisfaces' ideas for Time Machine and other features inherit in OSX. It was pretty damning in the sense that Apple isn't so different from the companies you lambast for doing the exact same thing.

Yet, you don't cite the article. Everyone picks up ideas and Apple is no different. If that's what you meant, I'd give it to you.

The only difference is how you embrace and implement the idea and add something to it to make it more innovative (add evolutionary or revolutionary — they don't mean anything to me).

For e.g. cloud syncing was nothing new. Apple did it before Dropbox and Google Sync. Yet, Apple first major cloud sync offering sucked pretty bad infront of Dropbox/Google or any other player.
They did reinvent the wheel and created something new, efficient and innovative with iCloud.

Attempting condescension in an attempt to look smart rarely ever achieves the intended effect.

Actually — 'NO'. If you think that way, I'm afraid, you've a pretty proud attitude for yourself. I wasn't being condescending. I was trying to correct you that 'one doesn't steal patents'. One only 'infringes on them'. You don't seem to appreciate the learning aspect and instead twist in a negative way. If somebody tries to correct you and tell you, you were wrong, you simply would take that as someone acting superior or condescending. No wonder you have such attitude which is so obvious in your posts.

I also think it's funny how in Apple's situation, you immediately assume an honest mistake, yet you've shown yourself in the past to be one of those incredibly loud people who scream about "blatantly stolen ideas" any time anyone else comes out with something similar to something Apple has done before.

Again, you simply don't want to understand. People copy ideas, people 'steal' ideas. But one cannot steal patents. In fact, Kdarling was himself once corrected me on this 'stealing/infringing' argument and I'm sure (if I or you can find my reply), I was humble and said — "Thanks. I'll keep in mind."

Bias, favoritism, and how it colors opinions is something every grown up should understand. Right?

I don't know what you're raging about. But I'm not surprised.

....yeah. Alright then.

Another piece of absolute rubbish, which has got nothing to do with my comment whatsoever.
 
[MOD NOTE]

Stop the arguing and bickering. Stay on topic and do not resort to insulting members.
 
Apple even proposed a licensing deal for crying out loud. Don't tell me it was too expensive. Ever heard of the word "negotiations"? Of course you start with a figure way above your intended take.

I missed the part where you cited any documentation that Samsung didn't try to negotiate better terms and just flat out rejected Apple's deal. Further - it doesn't matter whether they tried to negotiate because if they didn't like the terms they are within their right to just say no or walk away. Just like Apple is in their right to come back with a counter.

You can blame Samsung all you want. Personally - I think that both parties are rightfully in court. Both have issues with each other that then need 3rd party "help" in settling.
 
[MOD NOTE]

Stop the arguing and bickering. Stay on topic and do not resort to insulting members.

Thank you for that. Seriously I thought Mods were non existent in these type of threads.

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Infringing on patents is something —

1. you cannot be always sure of or aware of
2. almost all companies 'do' or 'try to do'

Thanks for that but is this not the same thing that some of the posters said about Samsung. So what's the difference?
 
Absolutely but that's not what I'm talking about. I've mentioned in my first posting and the second posting just above yours: Samsung went the whole nine yards to skin their Windows app to make it look like xcode.

I don't understand why none of you would even acknowledge the amazing amount of work Samsung put in to make this look like xcode, an OSX app. Are you really not seeing it or am I making a ridiculously wild accusation? :confused:

I think even more interesting than the visual elements you list is the colors chosen for the syntax highlighting. I'm not that familiar with Dev Studio, but my rough recollection is that Apple syntax highlighting default colors don't match those of Dev Studio, but those chosen by Samsung do appear to match those of XCode.
 
You mean using the same techniques to minimize their tax burdens, keeping money overseas, and using manufacturers in Brazil and China just like Samsung (and possibly Google) does? :eek:

I agree that Apple certainly hasn't been fined $22.5 million like Google has, which AFAIK, Samsung hasn't been fined for either. So exactly what constitutes "s****"?

"AFAIK Samsung hasn't been fined for either". Are you fscking kidding me?

- In 1997 Samsung was recorded planning to bribe presidential candidates for the SK presidential election.
- In 2008 Samsung Chairman's house and office were raided in an investigation of a slush fund. Chairman was found guilty of the slush fund and tax evasion.
- They were fined 146 million euros for being part of a DRAM price cartel.

This is just three cases I can think of. There are probably more I've forgotten.


As for Apple's tax situation, the bottom line here is blame your elected congress for this crap. It is CONGRESS that decides the rules for how money can be assigned in different buckets so as to reduce taxes, just like it was CONGRESS that chose, in 2004, to allow all that foreign money to flow back into the US untaxed. What Apple is doing is no different from what you do when you claim the mortgage interest deduction, or pay lower rates on cap gains, or any of the other myriad ways our tax system is insanely corrupt --- you do the best you can within a system not of your own devising.
 
Bias, favoritism, and how it colors opinions is something every grown up should understand. Right?
You both seem to have it down. And refuse to admit it.

I'm not dismissing commercial success altogether. I'm dismissing it as a general measurement of innovation.
But there wouldn't be (and hasn't been) a question of copying such an abandoned product. The "massive document" doesn't reference the Prada. If it did, you would have a point. But, it doesn't.

You are going to have to deal with it, there is no more question. Samsung actually did this. Reality has spoken. Time to discuss reality instead of everyone's opinion about what the trial might be about. Or go back to discussing whether the particular patents have legal merit based on the larger sum of evidence the public has to look at.
 
You both seem to have it down. And refuse to admit it.

I am biased against most of these BS lawsuits, and I've been arguing as much since day 1. I think they're pointless bickering arguments over inane minutiae and a complete waste of money and time.

But there wouldn't be (and hasn't been) a question of copying such an abandoned product. The "massive document" doesn't reference the Prada. If it did, you would have a point. But, it doesn't.

You are going to have to deal with it, there is no more question. Samsung actually did this. Reality has spoken. Time to discuss reality instead of everyone's opinion about what the trial might be about. Or go back to discussing whether the particular patents have legal merit based on the larger sum of evidence the public has to look at.

I wasn't arguing the case when I brought up the Prada. Someone asked to show proof of an iPhone like phone before the iPhone. So I showed them a shot of it.
 
Thing is, why would Samsung spend time and money cloning XCode when they've got a ton of other IDEs that look about the same, perform about the same, and work just as well if not better?

If we believe Apple's current allegations to be true, Samsung is poaching Apple's customers to steal profit. They do this by imitating the "look and feel" of Apple's products.

This is where we make the leap, so stay with me.

Because the "look and feel" of Apple's software environment is a critical component of their products, Samsung stands to gain by further imitating the "look and feel" of their developer tools to attract and/or retain Apple's developers (i.e. clients).

Think about it. There's this vibrant community of people who are super excited to develop for iOS or OS X and new people are learning to code in ObjC nearly every day. These people, they're doing it for the first time in Xcode. That's ALL THEY KNOW. And some might get bored or discouraged, and they like the coding but they want to mix it up. They search for alternatives. What do you think happens when they find something that looks so familiar?

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Wait, so now it's a blatant copy job ? It's just a toolbar, it's not reinventing the Windows UI since you can make those toolbars using standard Windows UI controls, there wasn't even any effort here.

The rest of the software's UI is just plain IDE fare that could have come from any IDE.

Yes, we're so not objective because we fail to care or understand why you even would bring this up, fail to double check it by downloading and opening the software itself to see if this was really the default look and post actual screenshots.

This is just all irrelevant. It's no big "Samsung blatant copy job". It's a "Run/Stop/Editor panes" toolbar. Sure it looks like Xcode's. So what ?

You can lead a horse to water...
 
I find it really perplexing (and in an odd way highly entertaining) that none of you can simply admit it that Samsung did really rip off an Apple product's look and feel in this case and just squirming around the issue. It's especially puzzling given that many of you preach that Apple fans should be more "objective" ;)

I see the resemblance; I'm also miffed that others think it is just normal. I've used a lot IDEs on a lot of different systems, and the Samsung screenshot that you show has an uncanny resemblance to XCode…
 
http://www.ubergizmo.com/2012/08/pi...-demonstrated-to-apple-by-adam-bogue-in-2003/

Pinch-to-Zoom and other gestures demonstrated to Apple by Adam Bogue in 2003

In the Apple vs. Samsung lawsuit, Samsung has called Adam Bogue to the witness stand. He is the man behind the DiamondTouch PC interface (video below) and says that he demonstrated a touch interface demo featuring popular gestures gestures to Apple back in 2003. Mitsubishi Electric did a lot of research on the topic in the late 90s.

Nothing came out of those demonstrations, but Mr. Bogue has kept emails to prove that the private meeting did happen. Samsung’s goal is to show that some of the patents that Apple is trying to use against Samsung and other handset makers have prior art, which may invalidate Apple’s patent tool.




Will the jury be convinced that pinch to zoom is a legitimate Apple patent?
 
http://www.ubergizmo.com/2012/08/pi...-demonstrated-to-apple-by-adam-bogue-in-2003/

Pinch-to-Zoom and other gestures demonstrated to Apple by Adam Bogue in 2003



YouTube: video



Will the jury be convinced that pinch to zoom is a legitimate Apple patent?

If this is ALL Samsung and Bogue have to offer, it's not clear it's good enough.

In order to anticipate a claim, prior art is generally expected to provide a description sufficient to inform an average worker in the field (or the person skilled in the art) of some subject matter falling within the scope of the claim. Prior art must be available in some way to the public, and in many countries, the information needs to be recorded in a fixed form somehow. Prior art generally does not include unpublished work or mere conversations


I can't find enough details about DiamondTouch to know if there's anything relevant here.
At least part of the tech seems rather different from iOS
The principal feature that distinguishes the DiamondTouch table from other multi-touch interfaces, ..., is that the DiamondTouch table can identify who is touching where. DiamondTouch achieves this feature through capacitive coupling between a transmitter array located in the touch surface and separate receivers located in the chair of each user.

Beyond this difference in the tech, it's not clear when the gestures of interest became public on DiamondTouch. The video referenced above is dated 2008 on YouTube, and CircleTwelve was founded in 2008. It is plausible (I have no knowledge either way) that they only thought of adding these types of gestures to the publicly available DiamondTouch after iPhone was released. The video does NOT, for example, seem to understand pinch to zoom as a coherent concept. It's used in a few places as a gimmick, but when it actually comes to resizing windows, we do that old-school by dragging on a resize decoration on the side of a window.
In particular, look at the video --- the supposedly damning zoom gesture that we see as the image for the video in fact has a completely different role --- it's not zoom at all, it's some sort of variant of the iOS loupe magnifying gesture!

It's certainly not a great ad for "we invented the multi-touch interface" when your video is all about "this is how we behave like a mouse"!
 
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