San Francisco Officials Suggest Significant Changes Needed for Apple's New Flagship Store Proposal

[darkplanets]

The originally planned route couldn't even be completed because it was inherently a bad job.

A small percentage of the workforce travels anywhere besides their home and office for work.

Affluent people will always find a way to get to work because they have resources beyond normal commuters/

Public transportation helps everyone.

I think what people forget is that while public transportation is absolutely great for local commuting, it's not the best for inter-city or inter-state commuting. Take the cost of CalTrain, for example.

The point of these highway systems is to provide efficient inter-city travel. Take 280 in San Francisco. If there was a through-pass to Golden Gate, there would be less traffic in the city, making things better for everyday locals and commuters. These through passes don't need to be I480 2.0 either -- Boston showed that putting highways underground works well.

I'd rather these city resources be put into solving real problems than the perceived warmth of an Apple store in an already bland, blocky gray square.

 

[supercoolmanchu]

Here we go....

First, I'm speaking through 36 young but very diverse years of experience, from being raised in the U.K. and Germany with socialized democracy to being an American. I have lived in London, Munich, Barcelona, N.Y.C. (home), San Francisco, Los Angeles, Boston, upstate NY (other home) - I have had the benefit of experiencing many different cultures...

So you grew up in a monarchy and your heritage is one of deference to the state? Don’t think I needed the laborious origin tale to understand this. Your ability to take up space in various places is not a testament to anything. Also, I didn't ask... don't care. A few trendy cities, nice but narrow, most of the planet is not those. I said you seem to be a little too heavily invested in TV over books, because you were parroting a lot of really cliché and contradictory party politics, which is delivered at a 4th grade level, 24/7/365 on the stupid tube.

Socialism is just a fancy word for monarchy. State/king decides what’s best, individual rights exist at the whim of the ruling elite. A pretty important humanistic thing happened in the 18th century in regards to that kind of thinking, and it’s probably mankind’s greatest achievement, you’d be wise to spend some time learning about it. You've already spent too much on the drunken loser German philosopher, realize that he just stole all that stuff from Catholicism (the champions of European monarchies).

Second, you are very incorrect. The U.S. system may be a Capitalistic "free market" system in theory, however government and the corporate sect have become so intertwined it is ludicrous and naive to believe they are not one and the same. Special interest groups, campaign contributions, lobbyists all impact political elections and policies from the Federal to the State level. Money talks, b.s. walks. If you truly believe government is "evil" and "corrupt" then by proxy you are stating corporations are "evil" and "corrupting". Freedom is an illusion my friend. At one point in American politics and government, one could state the opposite. Yet since the mid 20th century, the game changed.

If you think the government is corrupt, why would you support the tyranny of increased government central planning and giving up hard fought civil liberties? Freedom is inherent pal, control is the illusion, and one that is always costly to maintain and vicious to initiate. You shouldn't give up and cop out like that. Also, did you just write 'the game changed'?

Just get the government out of business and individual rights, its really simple, instead of the knee jerk emotional reaction to every perceived grievance being more government involvement, stop... breathe... think. There are always better solutions, by spending a little more mental effort than running to mommy. You will still have the inherent risks, but by retaining the responsibility, you preserve your rights and power personal conviction. If businesses screw over people, let the courts work it out, thats what they are for. You said you were a liberal, get on board, this is liberalism 101. Cowing to the power elite, that’s something entirely different from any kind of liberalism... and very 12th century.

One might site the GM and mass transit scandal (the "Great American streetcar scandal") as a crucial tipping point. The General Motors streetcar conspiracy refers to allegations and convictions in relation to a program by General Motors and other companies who purchased and then dismantled streetcar and electric train systems in many American cities. Between 1936 and 1950... yet we are still paying the price as pollution, traffic congestion and environmental disasters have resulted from this new capitalist approach that bought politicians and votes in order to "pave the way".

Wait, a second there with the earth mother religious condemnations... How do you think electric trains get their power? Go back three spaces, lose one turn.

The railcars could barely keep up with the area population of the LA area in the 1930 of about 2 million, never mind today's 22 million residents (excluding visitor and commercial transportation traffic) and vastly expanded residential/commercial/industrial area. You're missing a lot of history in the development of the LA trolleys, and assuming that the government litigation was warranted and legitimate. What if they were wrong or overly reactionary? Might want to play devil's advocate on this, but that will be hard if you're looking for configuration bias thru some notion of an environmental spiritual crusade.

Pop quiz:

What works better in any kind of stormy weather?
A. Fragile yet complex tangles of wires above a bunch of streets
B. Autonomous, self powered vehicles.

This is what buses replaced, which would be strung over the streets in all those cities you list:

Trolleys... not a winning combo for these really big spread out western states. I've been on tour buses, trains and vans over most of the country, and once you leave the original 13, public transportation is just a fiction for sheltered urbanites. It's a big, big country

Couple this with Frank Lloyd Wrights contributions to fleeing over crowded cities for a new American suburban dream and Levittown, NY, and it was only a matter of time for the automobile industry and real estate and banks working with federal and local governments in pushing a new automotive and oil and gas economy.

Um, oil was pretty useful for providing heat, no corporate conspiracy needed to popularize that. Do you have any idea of what life was like before? Oil didn’t need cars to be important, it’s amazing stuff, kerosene was pretty vital. Frank Lloyd Wright made art, he didn’t give most people a reliable way to light and heat their homes at night. That was big oil, baby. Gas replaced oil for obvious reasons (instead of having an oil pipeline to your oven). You probably should study the history of this a bit more, might demystify and remove some of goblins you're seeing.

A better question is that with oil, railroads, steel, banking and then electric 'monopolies' at each other's throats, which resulted in the greatest period of progress for basic human needs, did the government need to step in? Assuming control over those industries and literally freezing their progress while binding people to these now crippled dinosaurs sentenced to stagnate? Monopoly is often the excuse given by government for why they need to take power, I submit that you and many others, too easily accept that without the thinking caps firmly on. The reactionary masses fall time and time again for the fabricated narrative of some evil rich guy, whose greed will prove the ruin of us all. I don't know if you've noticed but as government has seized more power, politicians have lined their pockets. 7 of the 10 richest counties in the US surround Washington DC, and are feed almost exclusively on no industry other than political graft and outdated government bureaucracy. That's a tragedy and a farce. Remember that when some political party clown is talking about the economy and outsourcing, and I guarantee you'll want to vomit in your mouth.

Now imagine how many people might use their Apple products for their livelihood, families, etc. and witness these clueless planners entertain retards over a entirely trivial and worthless decorative, but non functional, illegal for any public use, drinking fountain. Its a joke.

Los Angeles was hit the hardest as it had the best electric mass transit system in the nation, only to be dismantled when GM partnered with oil companies to pave highways, use diesel buses and push the automobile as the new frontier. Frank Lloyd Wrights contributions to American sub-urbanism greatly influenced American topography for decades. In the mid-20th century Wright's belief that automobiles, gas stations, highways and suburban strongholds were the next frontier were laid out in his "Broad Acre City" model. Then Levittown, NY was established after WWII for war vets, followed by "white flight". Many left urban strong holds for the new American Dream, leading to a country of homogeneous denizens separated by class and race in suburban area's. The economical boom of the 1990's saw a reversal of such models, with the X generation pushing gentrification of inner cities. Many wanted to live near work, and enjoy the culture and heterogeneous population coastal cities had to offer. Boston's Back Bay and especially South End (formerly abandoned brownstones and crack houses) became multimillion dollar real estate almost overnight.

You need to get out more if you think America was ever one big, country of homogeneous denizens separated by class and race. You're also completely wrong if you think there was ever a country wide homogeneous suburban America. Yet another example of why I think you watch too much TV. American never looked like Leave it to Beaver or the Brady Bunch, yet that's what your spouting. Maybe I'm wrong and you're just sourcing abysmal books (magazines maybe?), but that's way off. There's a huge variety of suburban, urban and rural communities all across this country, since before it's inception. You're conclusion about gen x and gentrification of the cities, ignores the substantial development and much more significant changes through out this country's non-costal areas. I think you'll find the cities largely unchanged, except for the exteriors, and the real big development outside of those areas. You basically just wrote nice sounding, self affirming poetry for city types, but it's total elitist, pompous regional BS. Go to Dallas, Nashville, St. Louis, Salt Lake City, Las Vegas and Denver. Totally clueless if you point to any big urban change of the 90's as more significant than the interior. That's a clear indication that you have not been outside your relative bubble.

In today's society, the line between the corporate and government sects is a very blurred line at best. Claiming local government is to blame for urban decay is ludicrous, as cities experienced a great boom in population since the 80's, bringing business and funding to improve these area's thus requiring local oversight, the very opposite of your claims. Zoning guidelines and committees became a necessity in order to guide cities through booming populations. Without such committees, population density would negatively impact positive growth. Commercial and residential zones required severe rethinking in order to predict traffic patterns that mass transit would alleviate. Commercial (and residential) aesthetic guidelines are not simply strong arming businesses, it impacts real estate value, city image and by proxy tourism, even crime (read "Broken Windows Theory", a well established principal that a simple broken window ....

Um, you're claiming that on one hand government plans all this wonderful stuff, but on the same hand they aren't responsible for the decay. You can't have it both ways. How did anyone on earth ever make a place to live without zoning? You realize that most people are smart enough not to build their stuff stupidly, but sometimes people screw up? You also realize that even with zoning authority government screws up? Regularly? There's no real accomplishment here, government just takes credit for reality and overcharges for it and gets in the way.

New York City's "Time Square" was not the Disney owned tourist attraction of today. Prostitutes and bars lined the once well regarded theatre district for decades. Then mayor Rudolph Giuliani "partnered" (rather, was bought off by) ABC and Disney, selling real estate to those businesses which lead to a mass gentrification of the area, paving the way for others. However, crime was a major issue, especially in the residential "Hells Kitchen" area. Giuliani approved a police task force to strong arm residents out of the area as well as (questionable) businesses such as porn stores and bars. It was widely known he was paid handsomely as large conglomerate businesses took over the area. It "cleaned up" Times Square, yet many begrudge this time in New York City's history as it took away the character and grit that many loved. Soon, other area's followed, with small mom and pop businesses that defined neighborhoods being replaced with "BestBuy's" and "GAP's". The Upper West Side especially experienced a major turn around, with Broadway and Amsterdam becoming a bland canvas of corporate American blocks and glass and steel buildings replacing the brick and mortar buildings that gave New York such character for decades. New York has experienced so much growth so quickly, places one would never walk alone in the day time let alone live have become prime real estate.

I think you’ve got an overly simplistic, incomplete and incoherent appreciation of Times Square history about this.

Might of missed ---> Mayor Koch ... city commissions... eminent domain... Mayor Dinkins, more city commissions .... rezoning.... court battles... couldn’t sell it off... Mayor Giuliani... more city commissions... more court... just decades long city government clownery. Such amazing planning!

What changed? 90’s tech bubble put a lot of money on Wall St., NYC starting getting an overall facelift as that money got spent, and a lot going to the immediate area and Times Square to develop more much needed commercial real estate. May have heard about the high pricing and demand in the area? The multiple administrations across multiple parties were fundamentally all the same bureaucratic road block.

None of this is purely the result of capitalism or state/urban funding, but the working of both systems, many unethically. Stating the government is corrupt in the U.S. is one thing, claiming capitalism is the answer is completely ignorant. So you want to talk about my inexperience some more or do you want to admit you may have your belief system a bit backwards?

Statements! Capitalism! Boogey boogey boo! I'm starting to suspect there's a hint of class warfare and cultural bigotry going on with you...

I claimed individuals are the answer, not government. Individuals powered by their inherent rights, not by governmental whim. People are always better than government authority.

*Aside from studying neuropsychology, I also studied urban planning and architecture, T.A.'ing courses at the University of Rochester and Columbia. I'd be more than happy in PM'ing you my dissertation on these matters, "Segregation, Isolation and Fear - The Plight of Modern Urbanism". So to counter your point that I receive my information from television and pop culture, thus I must be naive, I have real life experiences coupled with book smarts to make a rather informative and accurate depiction of the American topography over the last century. Why not discuss the matter intelligently with facts instead of passing your opinions as truth? Please don't attempt to claim I do not know what I write.

Thought you might say Neurology, but instead went all psychy there, shame. Afraid I’m the type of girl more impressed by the hard sciences. Your thesis? Dude, there’s just no way you’re getting my digits with “Segregation, Isolation and Fear - Plight of Modern Urbanism”. Flattered, but might be one of those rare cases where it’s better to wait and hope the movie will be better.

Also be careful invoking the concept of 'segregation', you haven’t spent enough cycles on this rock to have any idea of what that really was. There’s no real modern equivalent anywhere you stated you've been.

It would benefit you greatly if you knew what you were discussing and you addressed others such as "infinitech" and "AidenShaw" with respect and common courtesy.

You posted a rude picture as a response to my first post, and now call for civility when you dislike basic critiques of holy central planners. Then try to call for backup? Um... yeah... no... Where’s Rolly when you need him?... there he is ---->

People respond in kind. I took the time in addressing your claims with facts, events, and sources, try to do the same with others. This is a subject matter of which I am very passionate and well versed, I do not take personal insults lightly and will take the time in addressing relevant points as necessary.

You started with a personal insult, so don't patronize me. All you've basically done is squid the issue of a stupid fountain and the blatantly obvious stupid bureaucracy blocking a useful retail enterprise for millions of annual visitors.
Not to mention one of the few technical support service centers for anyone with a Mac in the downtown business district of SF. I guess you missed the giant useless concrete square in the middle of this area, that's an established and perfectly viable, sizable place for government to engage in feigning cultural patronism, rather than the small steps behind the former clothing shop.

You've cited questionable sources, confused facts, cherry picked events and yet somehow manage to prove my point by saying that the government is corrupt (regardless of whether you got the sequencing or parties even remotely correct) but that you also think they are THE ANSWER for planning any civic human activity. So good job, thanks for the help, hope you learn something. We're done here.

 

[supercoolmanchu]

Not entirely accurate. First, the main opponent to the 710 extension isn't Pasadena, it's South Pasadena. The 710 is already built through most of its route in Pasadena but would take out entire neighborhoods if it was built as planned though South Pasadena.

There's no main opponent, the city of Pasadena has had plenty of their own hand wringing over the 710. They've built less than half, and how long has it been stalled there?

The "refusal" is a function of the growing resistance to the 1960s thinking of the Caltrans engineers.

It's not like actual engineers know anything about that stuff, over today's city council planners! Most of the plans for these freeways have been endlessly stalled and debated by these little councils, and look how great traffic has worked out. Now that it's awful, their suggestion is to just avoid the very same roads they've bungled. Genius! Hard to believe the deal the city is getting to acquire this wisdom, with all the people's money they take.

The only solution they propose to relieve congestion is more and wider freeways,

Well short of fantastical notions of automotive catapults and magic public pumpkin carriages, there's a shortage of ways to put more stuff through a tube and maintain/increase speed without making said tube wider. Ya know, basic physics...

It's a certainty that traffic is going to increase with population, it also shows you how badly city planning does, when there's not a plan or even realization that tubes will need regularly have to get bigger. Or are we supposed to wait for them to find a perfect, magic transportation solution? When have they ever been able to perform such alchemy?

many of them plowed directly through established urban areas. In the old days, nobody much cared about established urban areas, so selling massive land acquisition wasn't difficult.

And governments haven't done much to constantly confuse and clutter these land acquisition issue through policy and litigation at all. Right? What is an 'Environmental Impact Report'? Are these always totally accurate and driven by actual environmental issues? Or have they become a de facto tactic and tool for clueless politicians? No never...

This is why much of area north of downtown Pasadena was utterly wiped out for the construction of the 210. Thankfully, cities are no longer being rolled so easily by Caltrans.

Yeah, because how would anyone get anywhere without the 210!? Kinda of an important route east there, bub.

At the same time, the cost of building freeways this way has gone through the roof.

Yes, love government for that. Lot's of bloat and graft. Why are we leaving them to build roads again?

If the 710 connector is ever built (which I doubt), it would likely be the most expensive road construction by the mile in history. And within months it would be so congested that everybody would wonder why they bothered.

Would it be the most expensive because of the land or the bloated forced unionized wages required to lay f'in concrete?

Do you think it would it be the most congested stretch of freeway, because of all the congestion current clogging all the current freeways, coincidentally around the very same sections where there's an unfinished gap in the 710?

Second, Pasadena is promoting alternatives. They are encouraging the densification of development around the Metro Gold Line stations. This is how mass transit is made to work.

Promoting alternatives? Like 'Stay in Place' or 'Place Head In Sand' or the time honored f.u. 'Ride The Bus'?

All in all, I've gotta say, this was the worst defense, endorsement and/or explanation of government leadership and planning ever.

 

[portishead]

I don't mind city officials having a say in construction, but these tidbits are pretty dumb.

 

[elgrecomac]

How on earth did we get to the point where we think this is a proper function of government?

Well, obviously you've never owned a home in any community. All structures in my town must go through a design review process. This is quite normal.

 

[3282868]

So you grew up in a monarchy and your heritage is one of deference to the state? We're done here.

I stopped taking you seriously at the first sentence and laughed at the bits I scanned. First you presume I receive my information from television and pop culture, to which I addressed, then you attack my political beliefs based on my being raised in the U.K. (a monarchy in history yet driven by a P.M., which negates your retort). So now you're attacking me personally with more conjecture. Not one source or fact in your response, pure conjecture and misinformation, widely spread by you throughout this thread. I clearly stated both government and capitalism have worked in tandem for a long while, it seems that is a hard concept for you to recognize. I did not differentiate the two, but stated just the opposite. Some of your counterpoints are just plain wrong.

You really need a lesson in politics, sociology and history. You're personal insults don't help your cause any, I didn't insult you in any way, I professionally addressed your points with facts, history, respected urban theorists and well known basic concepts in American topography over the last century, citing theory and scholars. I suppose my PhD's and education and teachings in this matter coupled with life experiences mean nothing to someone who seems bent on being right. Yet you respond with retorts and conjecture. That states more about you than anything.

Yes, we are done, but something tells me you're the kind who needs to have the last, nitpicking, irreverent word. Good luck with that!

I'll leave you with a little something to ponder regarding online civil conversations versus arguments. I'm taking the middle ground at this point, congrats on the trophy

 

[AidenShaw]

Well, obviously you've never owned a home in any community. All structures in my town must go through a design review process. This is quite normal.

My neighbourhood even petitioned the city planning board to change zoning for our area from "single family homes" to "single family single story homes".

This is to prevent anyone from building any monster homes next door to our open homes with lots of glass. (My great room has a 14' high, 20' wide floor to ceiling glass wall.)

Planning commissions are there to protect land owners.

 

[3282868]

My neighbourhood even petitioned the city planning board to change zoning for our area from "single family homes" to "single family single story homes".

This is to prevent anyone from building any monster homes next door to our open homes with lots of glass. (My great room has a 14' high, 20' wide floor to ceiling glass wall.)

Planning commissions are there to protect land owners.

Exactomondo. It's amusing that those of us who have responded intelligently and respectfully to a certain individual have yet to receive responses in kind. Hmmm.

PS Nice avatar. Preach!

PPS Although I like Franklin's quote, I dug it up and learned it was in relation to something completely different although its relevance on this matter is still poignant. Google it, it's quite fascinating.

 

[aristotle]

Aww, what a cute thought.

I'd still rather vote to have a functional middle class, civil rights and democracy (as apposed to a theocracy) than be in a position where any company can do as they please to a city's landscape.

Fascinating. You should consider working as a novelist because you are very creative. Unfortunately, even writers of fiction need to have some grounding with reality.

I'm actually happy that I'm not an American because I live in a country where law enforcement does not think it is too inconvenient to work within the law and respect the bill of rights unlike your FBI which thinks following your constitution is too much work.

There is so much I wish I could say and I had tried to warn people what was going to happen. I saw a lot of this coming when I started working on certain projects back in 2001. You have the government that you deserve because you voted for them.

Believe it or not, but a theocracy would actually be better than what you have now. Some of the societies that you look up to in Europe, are theocracies. The majority of Scandinavian countries are still theocracies even now in the sense that there is no separation of church and state.

Ironically, many of those countries have better social programs, less crime and less recidivism as their prison systems focus on treatment rather than punishment and often incorporate the church into those programs.

The problem is that your socialism is "English Socialism" like you see in the book 1984 whereas Northern European Socialism is more moderate and often called Christian Democratic Socialism where they see crime and poverty as social diseases of the human condition that need to be treated rather than punished. In a sense, the goal of those prisons is to have the prisoners to "sin no more".

 

[supercoolmanchu]

I stopped taking you seriously at the first sentence and laughed at the bits I scanned. First you presume I receive my information from television and pop culture, to which I addressed,

Wrong. First you started our exchange with a post containing solely an insulting picture of a guy wearing a tin hat, and the word "Seriously" directed personally at me (which has now either been deleted or retro-actively edited by you) The evidence of your cowardly edit is in my first response to you on this thread.

Typical bully, picks a fight, then weasels by crying about fairness when he gets punched back.

Despite your total lack of credibility...

I still think a lot of your preconceptions smack of popular, but shoddy political gobbledegook. Maybe you didn't get it from TV, but I still stand by calling you out on it.

then you attack my political beliefs based on my being raised in the U.K. (a monarchy in history yet driven by a P.M., which negates your retort).

Cute weasel wording: "driven by a P.M." You're from a monarchy, the Queen is the Head of State, appoints the Prime Minister to work on her behalf to run the daily tasks of "Her Majesty's Government". You clearly state that you support the same types of governmental power. You don't see it?

So now you're attacking me personally with more conjecture

You're now not from England, nor believe what you've said?

Not one source or fact in your response, pure conjecture and misinformation, widely spread by you throughout this thread.

Why should I busy myself to satisfy you? You pick fights, ignore rebuttals, and just pretty much just squid to cloud subjects.

You posted some thin material, baycrossings.com and the name of a paper you wrote in college. This is called 'fluff' and just ink thrown up to retreat from malformed ideas and statements. You brought up this unrelated chaff, while doing a horrible job trying to summarize and analyze both the history of both early 20th century electric trolleys and Times Square.

I did a good enough job finding some holes in your thinking, where you take it is more of a personal thing in regards to the quest for knowledge. That's more of a Y.P. than an M.P.

Google 'Times Square' and go fetch the stuff I noticed you missed. Or maybe you'll see something about it on TV?

I clearly stated

Conjecture?

both government and capitalism have worked in tandem for a long while, it seems that is a hard concept for you to recognize. I did not differentiate the two, but stated just the opposite. Some of your counterpoints are just plain wrong.

It ceases to be 'capitalism' when the government regulates, the government has taken control of a market... sometimes by a little, sometimes by a lot. They don't have a great track record with managing these markets, which seems to provide a rather strong, logical argument for restricting their interference. Your counter point is that people are basically 'evil' and can't be trusted without regulation. I call this kind of blanket moralizing 'religious', and because of the inherent unfairness of 'spiritual' governmental dictating religious beliefs and their litany of mismanaged economic decisions, I therefore question solutions based on this assumption.

Further, I refuse to take sides in placing blame between two parties that have vastly enriched themselves, by working in tandem to achieve these results.

How is that wrong? Can you process that without changing the subject, or listing a litany of unrelated personal background details?

You really need a lesson in politics, sociology and history.

Conjecture?

You're personal insults don't help your cause any, I didn't insult you in any way,

Well, we both know that's pure ********.

I professionally addressed your points with facts, history, respected urban theorists and well known basic concepts in American topography over the last century, citing theory and scholars.

Professionally? Nope. Facts? Debatable, and your base credibility problem might be a handicap in providing those. What you cited about 'American topography' was pure clueless garbage padded with ramble, especially that part where you pontificate about cities and gentrification. Shovel time!

I suppose my PhD's and education and teachings in this matter coupled with life experiences mean nothing...

No I personally don't think they've mean anything beyond bluster. I doubt your credibility, considering that you've tried to cover up your original childish behavior.

However, if any is even accurate, I sincerely hope this dialog serves you well in the permanent record, doc.

Yes, we are done, but something tells me you're the kind who needs to have the last, nitpicking, irreverent word. Good luck with that! I'll leave you with a little something to ponder regarding online civil conversations versus arguments. I'm taking the middle ground at this point, congrats on the trophy

You certainly didn't start with civility. Yet still complaining when you can't handle the resulting dialog.

Trophy is so sweet, I'd thank you for the competition, but since you cheated... nope.

 

[supercoolmanchu]

My neighbourhood even petitioned the city planning board to change zoning for our area from "single family homes" to "single family single story homes".

That's what 'private communities' are for. Forcing everyone to adhere to your specific sense of aesthetics over home size, is really messed up.

This is to prevent anyone from building any monster homes next door to our open homes with lots of glass. (My great room has a 14' high, 20' wide floor to ceiling glass wall.)

This is a problem that already has a solution. For guaranteed home owner 'rules', go find a private community where each and everyone agrees to the same aesthetics when buying there. Using the government to police aesthetics just seems like its just a different shade of bigotry and intolerance.

Planning commissions are there to protect land owners.

No, in this case it's exclusively to enforce the tyranny of the few over other individuals' property.

 

[Konrad9]

Keep voting democrat.

Can't tell if trolling or just too dumb to have an opinion. Hopefully just trolling.

 

[AidenShaw]

No, in this case it's exclusively to enforce the tyranny of the few over other individuals' property.

Actually, 57 of the 58 home owners in the neighborhood not only petitioned the city and voted for the zoning change, they also contributed about $300 each for the fee associated with the change. (The 58th owner didn't respond to the request for a vote.)

Hardly "tyranny of the few"....

 

[3282868]

Actually, 57 of the 58 home owners in the neighborhood not only petitioned the city and voted for the zoning change, they also contributed about $300 each for the fee associated with the change. (The 58th owner didn't respond to the request for a vote.)

Hardly "tyranny of the few"....

But, but, but, it's government and socialism and, and...

Good points, and again, spot on. Moving on, hope you had a great weekend celebrating.

 

[redraike]

I work close to union square and trust me that nasty looking fountain needs to go. Drop that junk in the Haight somewhere.

The children of San Francisco made that fountain. Native San Franciscans, all of them.

If you don't like it, then get the hell out of our city, and take your other rude ass inconsiderate self-important transplant hipster friends with you. Like, yesterday. Get your superficial Hollywood culture back to LA. Get your arrogant me-first attitudes back to New York. Take your money with you, we're all effing sick of it.

We don't want you people around here any longer.

----------

Take that ugly POS fountain somewhere else. I don't care about the rest of what the officials had to say but that fountain has GOT TO GO.

Actually, you need to take your transplant elitist friends and get the hell out of our city if you don't like the history and community of San Francisco.

I'm one of the hundreds of native San Franciscan children who have art on that fountain. We grew up with and loved Ruth Asawa. It is our contribution to the city I grew up in.

Let me say it again: If you got a problem, then get your almighty temporary visitorship ass the hell out of my city sooner than later, and take your other rude ass inconsiderate self-important superficial hipster friends with you. Like, yesterday. We don't care about your money. We care about the culture of our city more.

You've worn out your welcome.

----------

Apple should just build elsewhere.

Then that plaza, residents and others can enjoy that fountain and loss of revenue.

Because that fountain pays for itself and everything else...right?

Have you no respect for the people of San Francisco who were here before you drove up the rents, pushed them out, and gentrified the entire town?

Now you want to destroy the art the children of San Francisco were allowed to contribute to their city? You really want to erase the city's history because that connection it's long-term residents have with their childhood doesn't generate cash?

I can't wait until you carpetbaggers go ruin some other town's legacy. We were here before you arrived, and we'll be here after you leave. But in the meantime, we're not going to let you destroy whatever the hell you like without a fight, especially not our city's soul.

 

[redraike]

I have to agree. No disrespect to Ruth Asawa, the artist, but I've never liked that fountain. I actually think it's kinda ugly the way it's just fitted onto the steps.

Actually, if you look at the art closely, you'll see that the shapes on the fountain are very childlike. They look like children's art.

Ruth Asawa isn't the actual artist. The children of San Francisco are. I am a native son of San Francisco, and my art is on that fountain.

Who cares about your dislike of the fountain? Your personal aesthetics mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to those of us who grew up with Ruth Asawa and contributed to that project in our classrooms. We walk by it every day and see our mark on this town. On OUR fountain.

Whether you like it or not is 100% irrelevant, it is us, the natives of the city who, in 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade, went down and proudly placed our little scuplture there, where it still sits today.

If you can't respect our history, our community, THEN GET THE #$%^ OUT OF OUR CITY.

 

[AidenShaw]

But, but, but, it's government and socialism and, and...

And nice that our city (and many others) allows a neighborhood to petition the planners and the city to fine-tune the zoning.

In Mountain View, it takes a two-thirds super-majority of the owners requesting the change, the concurrence of the planning commission, and approval by the city council.

The same rules apply to removing the "single story" restriction, in case future owners have a different opinion.

And, contrary to an earlier claim, it has nothing to do with aesthetics. You can build anything you want, any style you want, but it has to meet the city definition of "single story" (which is basically that the top of no interior wall can be more than 15 feet above grade - which is why my floor-to-ceiling windows are 14 feet high).

 

[Vermillion9494]

Fascinating. You should consider working as a novelist because you are very creative. Unfortunately, even writers of fiction need to have some grounding with reality.

I'm actually happy that I'm not an American because I live in a country where law enforcement does not think it is too inconvenient to work within the law and respect the bill of rights unlike your FBI which thinks following your constitution is too much work.

There is so much I wish I could say and I had tried to warn people what was going to happen. I saw a lot of this coming when I started working on certain projects back in 2001. You have the government that you deserve because you voted for them.

Believe it or not, but a theocracy would actually be better than what you have now. Some of the societies that you look up to in Europe, are theocracies. The majority of Scandinavian countries are still theocracies even now in the sense that there is no separation of church and state.

Ironically, many of those countries have better social programs, less crime and less recidivism as their prison systems focus on treatment rather than punishment and often incorporate the church into those programs.

The problem is that your socialism is "English Socialism" like you see in the book 1984 whereas Northern European Socialism is more moderate and often called Christian Democratic Socialism where they see crime and poverty as social diseases of the human condition that need to be treated rather than punished. In a sense, the goal of those prisons is to have the prisoners to "sin no more".

What does a theocracy have to do with a functional government? I agree that on principle we're on the same page but when you get to the details, especially with respect to the roll religion should play in government, we hit a fork.

The idea that a religion is needed in order to solve crime and poverty is foolish and is disrespectful to every non-religious organization that promotes the better good. I believe that a lot of Americans that are in prison are there because the Christians here have it in their mind that PUNISHMENT is the key. I mean, how could they think otherwise when it seems that God's favorite activity is being judge, jury and executioner. People see in God whatever they want--be it punishment or treatment--and assigning religion the responsible party is missing the point.

I would also remind you that Saudi Arabia is a theocracy, one of the purest theocracies around.

 

[aristotle]

What does a theocracy have to do with a functional government? I agree that on principle we're on the same page but when you get to the details, especially with respect to the roll religion should play in government, we hit a fork.

The idea that a religion is needed in order to solve crime and poverty is foolish and is disrespectful to every non-religious organization that promotes the better good. I believe that a lot of Americans that are in prison are there because the Christians here have it in their mind that PUNISHMENT is the key. I mean, how could they think otherwise when it seems that God's favorite activity is being judge, jury and executioner. People see in God whatever they want--be it punishment or treatment--and assigning religion the responsible party is missing the point.

I would also remind you that Saudi Arabia is a theocracy, one of the purest theocracies around.

Sorry but you are a little confused. I am not a supporter of socialism in general but most definitely not english socialism (NDP (Canada), Labour (UK) or Democrat (US).

The socialism that you support is English socialism which does not work and was critiqued in the book 1984. The society where the main characters in that book lived was controlled by English Socialism (Ingsoc in newspeak).

What social democratic parties in scandinavian countries represent is not english socialism but rather a form of socialism based on christian principles. Finland, for example, has a state church. I'm sorry but your godless socialism does not work and the soviet union (aka Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) proves my point.

How many examples of failed socialism republics do you need before you face the truth? Secular socialism cannot ever work because it ignores what drives people. You need to wake up and face the music.

If you want to help the maximum number of people, work hard in a capitalist society and give "your" money to help the poor and downtrodden masses.

Why do you insist on giving other people's money? If you really care about the poor, give your own money first.

As long as you keep on putting "yourself" first instead of your fellow man and god, you will never feel peace. In order to save yourself, you must lose yourself. You cannot be "god" of your life.

You americans talk a lot about god and separation of church and state but you leave people starving in the streets.

 

[RenoG]

This fountain is not a historic land mark. It can be moved, this poo must go.

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The children of San Francisco made that fountain. Native San Franciscans, all of them.

If you don't like it, then get the hell out of our city, and take your other rude ass inconsiderate self-important transplant hipster friends with you. Like, yesterday. Get your superficial Hollywood culture back to LA. Get your arrogant me-first attitudes back to New York. Take your money with you, we're all effing sick of it.

We don't want you people around here any longer.

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Actually, you need to take your transplant elitist friends and get the hell out of our city if you don't like the history and community of San Francisco.

I'm one of the hundreds of native San Franciscan children who have art on that fountain. We grew up with and loved Ruth Asawa. It is our contribution to the city I grew up in.

Let me say it again: If you got a problem, then get your almighty temporary visitorship ass the hell out of my city sooner than later, and take your other rude ass inconsiderate self-important superficial hipster friends with you. Like, yesterday. We don't care about your money. We care about the culture of our city more.

You've worn out your welcome.

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Have you no respect for the people of San Francisco who were here before you drove up the rents, pushed them out, and gentrified the entire town?

Now you want to destroy the art the children of San Francisco were allowed to contribute to their city? You really want to erase the city's history because that connection it's long-term residents have with their childhood doesn't generate cash?

I can't wait until you carpetbaggers go ruin some other town's legacy. We were here before you arrived, and we'll be here after you leave. But in the meantime, we're not going to let you destroy whatever the hell you like without a fight, especially not our city's soul.

Dude regardless who made it its ugly. I'm not saying it needs to be destroyed just relocate it. Maybe on some steps deep in golden gate somewhere.

 

[redraike]

This fountain is not a historic land mark. It can be moved, this poo must go.

Image

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Dude regardless who made it its ugly. I'm not saying it needs to be destroyed just relocate it. Maybe on some steps deep in golden gate somewhere.

Rated snobbiest city in America.

http://blogs.kqed.org/newsfix/2013/07/02/102242

Yes. It's all thanks to you. You bourgeois people are the real turds. YOU are the ones who need to be relocated.

 

[topdrawer]

I love how the people in the rendering are all huge to make the building not look as monstrous. the design is awful and in an urban setting like san francisco the architecture should engage every side of the street it touches, not make it into a back alley. unless they want an easy place for hookers to congregate.

I think the design is just ugly and it is taking away a public ease-way(the current stairs are there because that area is suppose to remain open space for the public.

 

[Pietro25]

I'm Glad the Fountain Will Remain

I used to live two blocks from that fountain. It really is that ugly.

If that building and it's accompanying fountain were vaporized tomorrow, not a single tear would be shed.

You may live two blocks from that fountain, but you haven't lived there very long. The local arts high school is named for the fountain's creator, Ruth Asawa. It shows how much clout her supporters have and how much affection there is for her in the City that Apple now has to design a building that incorporates her wonderful fountain.

I'm glad Apple will revisit its plans for its new store. I'm surprised by some comments on this board from Apple people. Apple products have succeeded so well in part because they bring a particular aesthetic to the table, which had me believing that Apple fans think about aesthetics. But that clearly isn't the case.