San Francisco Police Did Assist Apple in House Search of iPhone 5

[BigPrince]

The first details you listed are CLAIMS that both SIDES agree too, which makes them FACTS.

Calderon further claims he was intimidated and threatened.

This is not a fact that both sides concede, therefore it is important to hold this detail with a bit more suspicion and acknowledge that it is only a CLAIM not a FACT.

Assumptions can be problematic.

That is why I have made FEW (if any).

Certain parts can and have been proven to be true. Of the parties so far involved, his are the only statements that have not been shown to be false.

We are going in circles here.

We shouldn't assume anything. I am not et seeking alternative explanations because so far the only reliable source has been Calderon, as far as we know (or rather, the only source that has not already been shown to be unreliable)

Because a source has not yet shown to be unreliable does not mean we can trust it. However, I do agree that there might be reasons that we can show more faith to Mr. C then I have shown so far, I am still choosing to be skeptical and cautious because I don't yet buy into the reasons you provided that you feel prove he is 100% truthful.

I would agree that anything from SFPD has been called into question by their performance up to this point. I would suggest nothing so far puts Sergio's credibility into question. Yet. Would you disagree with this?

No, but I don't buy into a larger conspiracy or some purposeful malice by Apple, as I thought perhaps you were implying in earlier postings.

It was meant as a ridiculous example of how bizarre I find questioning someone's honesty with no justification. It was meant to be a ridiculous example of making assumptions that are not based on facts.

I think you are making assumptions not based on facts by giving Mr. C way to much credit.

Very much agreed. Yet some people seem to think the they need to besmirch Calderon or question his integrity for not other reason than if he is being honest, it impeaches the behavior of the SFPD and therefore puts the entire operation into question. The investigation, being done on the behalf and with the involvement of Apple. That does not mean Apple nor any employee of Apple did anything wrong, but it would certainly hint that way. That, in and of itself, seems to be why Calderon and his credibility is being questioned, with no actual reason to do so.

I have not besmirched Mr. C. However, I can easily see why it would look this way because of the three parties involved, Mr. C is metaphorically the smallest fish so attitudes could come across looking like he is being besmirched by some when they dont intend it. And I disagree that things "hint that way" that Apple did something malice here. They called the Police for a proper investigation. If they wanted to do anything with malice it would be dumb to call the police.

That he made the statement is fact and that is all I am taking for granted. I am not assuming the statement itself is true or false. I know at least part of his statement is true, even a part that was originally subject to disbelief and denial.

Some of his statements are claims, not facts. This is I think the root of much of our disagreement.

 

[Mal]

It was meant as a ridiculous example of how bizarre I find questioning someone's honesty with no justification. It was meant to be a ridiculous example of making assumptions that are not based on facts

I personally find it bizarre that so many people, yourself included, are so quick to assume that the Apple personnel and the police are lying, but so quick to assume that Mr Calderone is honest. It's as if they think he is the only person involved who deserves any respect at all. It's disgusting, in fact.

jW

 

[BigPrince]

I personally find it bizarre that so many people, yourself included, are so quick to assume that the Apple personnel and the police are lying, but so quick to assume that Mr Calderone is honest. It's as if they think he is the only person involved who deserves any respect at all. It's disgusting, in fact.

jW

I am glad some else agrees that there are assumptions being made here!

 

[Avalontor]

I personally find it bizarre that so many people, yourself included, are so quick to assume that the Apple personnel and the police are lying, but so quick to assume that Mr Calderone is honest. It's as if they think he is the only person involved who deserves any respect at all. It's disgusting, in fact.

jW

Equally bizarre is that so many people, yourself included, are so quick to assume that the Apple personnel and the police weren't lying, but so quick to assume that Mr Calderone is dishonest. It's as if they think he is the only person involved who doesn't deserves any respect at all. It's disgusting, in fact.

works both ways here.

 

[Flipt]

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I know there is lots of speculation over the whole lost in a bar incident. Even though there is potential evidence that it could have happened, I still find it so hard to believe that someone managed to lose a phone in a bar yet again. If this prototype of a phone actually exist and it was in fact lost in a bar then where are the photos?? You cannot tell me that someone picks up a phone prototype and not take pictures etc. If there were pictures then I would agree with this story, but until then on the side of the fence that finds this whole story unbelievable.

 

[RalfTheDog]

What do we know? we know that the phone was stolen. We know that the stolen phone was at Sergio Calderón's house and we know that Sergio Calderón was at the location the phone was stolen on the night it was stolen.

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

I know there is lots of speculation over the whole lost in a bar incident. Even though there is potential evidence that it could have happened, I still find it so hard to believe that someone managed to lose a phone in a bar yet again. If this prototype of a phone actually exist and it was in fact lost in a bar then where are the photos?? You cannot tell me that someone picks up a phone prototype and not take pictures etc. If there were pictures then I would agree with this story, but until then on the side of the fence that finds this whole story unbelievable.

Do you have any idea how much HTC would pay for a prototype iPhone? do you have any idea how much more they would pay if it was a prototype that had not been publicly released? It would be an extremely stupid thief that would take pictures of it and post them on the internet.

 

[samcraig]

What do we know? we know that the phone was stolen. We know that the stolen phone was at Sergio Calderón's house and we know that Sergio Calderón was at the location the phone was stolen on the night it was stolen.



Do you have any idea how much HTC would pay for a prototype iPhone? do you have any idea how much more they would pay if it was a prototype that had not been publicly released? It would be an extremely stupid thief that would take pictures of it and post them on the internet.

Equally stupid would be any company risking the ramifications of buying a lost/stolen prototype.

 

[cere]

I personally find it bizarre that so many people, yourself included, are so quick to assume that the Apple personnel and the police are lying, but so quick to assume that Mr Calderone is honest. It's as if they think he is the only person involved who deserves any respect at all. It's disgusting, in fact.

jW

Well, then Mal, you need to unbunch your panties because that which you find bizarre never actually happened.

-I have not said I believe or assume Apple is lying. You imagined this.
-I have not said or assumed the police lied. They have release inaccurate or incomplete information. To say they were lying would be to say they did so intentionally.
-I've not said he is the only one deserving of respect. I said he is the only one that has made statements that have been proven to be reliable, so far.

Your disgust at imaginary events and assumptions I never made is amusing. More than a little disturbing, but nonetheless amusing.

----------

I am glad some else agrees that there are assumptions being made here!

And some appear to be imaginary and still resulting in disgust...

 

[kdarling]

Do you have any idea how much HTC would pay for a prototype iPhone? do you have any idea how much more they would pay if it was a prototype that had not been publicly released?

To heck with HTC. A lot of people on this forum would pay for a prototype of their own

If I had to bet, I'd guess that (no matter who took it) it was sold or given to a friend right away, and now that friend is laying very low with the device turned off. If they're smart, it actually might never get turned on again. It could even be at the bottom of a lake by now. Otherwise both the taker and the receiver could end up in jail.

 

[Flipt]

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With regard to the whole phone being left in the bar, which clearly points out the apple employees negligence. At which point does the phone become stolen? I would assume that as soon as someone not the owner picks the phone up and walks out of the bar it becomes stolen. This would agree with the law that the phone will always remain property of apple. However, the person that took it out of the would have most likely have known about the ramifications of taking it out the bar. So why didnt they take photos of the device in the bar and leave it there or hand it in to the owner? We all have camera phones nowadays and this could have been done with ease. The only other reason it was taken out the bar was because it was stolen from the employee when they were still in the bar for example pickpocketed or swiped off the table.

 

[BigPrince]

And some appear to be imaginary and still resulting in disgust...

I showed you in post #275 where you were wrongly assuming facts.

 

[darkplanets]

Well, we do have the statements from Mr. Calderon. So far, he has been the only party that has been both forthcoming and whose statements have been shown to be true. His statements, originally contradicted by the SFPD were subsequent proven to be true. So, should we assume his assertion of being threatened with possible deportation (whether that threat had any legal weight or not) is not accurate? What reason do you have to doubt him?.....

I have plenty of reason to doubt him, or anyone for that matter. He's not a non-biased third-party observer-- he's directly entangled with the possible legal implications of this case. As such, his testimony is not really that reliable; he could simply claim such an issue was brought up in order to play the immigration card to balkanize supporting parties or groups. As such it is a possibility that the statement was contrived for personal gain, which I think is entirely reasonable. We are human, after all.

 

[lilo777]

What do we know? we know that the phone was stolen. We know that the stolen phone was at Sergio Calderón's house and we know that Sergio Calderón was at the location the phone was stolen on the night it was stolen.



Do you have any idea how much HTC would pay for a prototype iPhone? do you have any idea how much more they would pay if it was a prototype that had not been publicly released? It would be an extremely stupid thief that would take pictures of it and post them on the internet.

1. We do not know that the phone was stolen. It could have been sold by Apple employee. Even if it was not, quoting CNET:

"Apple came to us saying that they were looking for a lost item," San Francisco Police Department spokesman Lt. Troy Dangerfield said, according to a report this afternoon by SF Weekly.


How did you turn lost item into a stolen phone? We do not know whether drunk Apple employee discovered the loss in the tequila lounge or after he arrived home (or wherever). Maybe he dropped it while getting into the car? Maybe the phone was then swept by the city cleaning trucks and is now laying somewhere in the garbage? Neither Apple nor SFPD refer to this phone as "stolen".

2. We do not know that the "stolen" phone was at Sergio Calderón's house. Phone GPS accuracy (usually 30 feet) is simply not good enough to pin point the house in this neighborhood where the houses have no separation between them. Besides, Apple would be lucky if they got any GPS reading from inside the house.

3. It is very unusual for police to assist anybody in search for a lost phone. Most likely this is the first such case in US history. As to the "price" of such phone, you are mistaken to think that HTC (or any serious company to this matter) would buy a stolen phone. The risk clearly does not justify buying it. Similar thing happened in 2006 when someone stole drink recipe from Coke and tried to sell it to Pepsi. Pepsi turned the guy to the police right away. The best precedent you might use in this case would be the case where Gizmodo paid $5K for a lost iPhone 4 but then they gave it to Apple anyways.

 

[poppasketti]

Wouldn't that be the fault of the police department though? They were the ones there. They authorized the search by doing nothing. They came with the Apple employees. While Calderon may have been mislead by the fact that police officers accompanied the Apple employees, it's unlikely that this would become any corporate misconduct case. That said, don't get me wrong, having two employees search your house isn't exactly "cool."

Believe me, I have a big problem with the police's role in this situation, and I agree that Apple may not have broken any laws here. However, all of the information we have is this: 4 SFPD officers and 2 Apple employees showed up at Calderon's house, asked to search the house, Calderon consented, and the police waited outside while the Apple employees searched the house. No one has come forward claiming that the Apple employees identified themselves as such. Furthermore, when the Apple security employee's name (Anthony Colon) became part of the story, he immediately removed his linkedIn profile.

Now, removing the linkedIn profile may seem small, but it just shows an effort on Colon's part to distance himself from the story. That and the fact that no one seems to claim the Apple employees identified themselves is, if nothing else, suspicious.

Beyond that, we don't really know much, which is why I'm trying not to overstep or make too many assumptions, but I am very interested to see how this story develops and what picture we have once all the facts come out and have been vetted.

 

[BigPrince]

*snip*

3. It is very unusual for police to assist anybody in search for a lost phone. Most likely this is the first such case in US history. As to the "price" of such phone, you are mistaken to think that HTC (or any serious company to this matter) would buy a stolen phone. The risk clearly does not justify buying it. Similar thing happened in 2006 when someone stole drink recipe from Coke and tried to sell it to Pepsi. Pepsi turned the guy to the police right away. The best precedent you might use in this case would be the case where Gizmodo paid $5K for a lost iPhone 4 but then they gave it to Apple anyways.

You imply that just is some ordinary phone....very misleading.

To me this phone is a trade secret that Apple is obligated to protect.


Then you imply Gizmodo just nonchalantly gave the phone back to Apple. Your done. You are completely and conveniently ignoring everything that they published about the device that Apple did not want to be released publicly before its launch.

 

[vitzr]

Such a fascinating story. Could be a soap opera on Apple TV. Its got all the geeky aspects to have very long legs. If it turns out remotely close to the prior story, it will prove there's no consequences for the person who lost it. The last guys still employed by Apple. Rumor has it not only did he not get fired, he got promoted. No wonder so many love Apple. Sheer bliss.

 

[lilo777]

You imply that just is some ordinary phone....very misleading.

To me this phone is a trade secret that Apple is obligated to protect.


Then you imply Gizmodo just nonchalantly gave the phone back to Apple. Your done. You are completely and conveniently ignoring everything that they published about the device that Apple did not want to be released publicly before its launch.

"Apple is obligated to protect" is not the same as SFPD is obligated to protect. After all, Apple is losing their super secret phones in bars once a year (on average). Police has more important business to do than tracing the phones lost by Apple.

 

[fldavidstorm]

iPhone Proto-Type Lost

First of all, listen to all of you..... bunch of nervous Nellies... WHO CARES !!
OMG - Apple lost yet another phone and one that is coming out very soon anyhow. If Apple has something to hide they would not permit the removal of any un-released prototype from the facility. In fact they would search everyone.

Maybe the person who picked it up isn't even aware this is a prototype phone. Does it have big letters that say, PROTOTYPE TRADE SECRETS INSIDE on it?
Not everyone is a geek and interested in an Apple iPhone of any type, myself included.

 

[BigPrince]

"Apple is obligated to protect" is not the same as SFPD is obligated to protect. After all, Apple is losing their super secret phones in bars once a year (on average). Police has more important business to do than tracing the phones lost by Apple.

Again your choosing to miss the point. This IS NOT a regular phone, it is a new prototype that its secrecy is important to protect.

If a new prototype of a device was stolen of say, a car, then you wouldn't be ignoring the point.

 

[lilo777]

Again your choosing to miss the point. This IS NOT a regular phone, it is a new prototype that its secrecy is important to protect.

If a new prototype of a device was stolen of say, a car, then you wouldn't be ignoring the point.

For everybody but Apple (and this includes SF police) it is a regular phone. If, say, I lost a phone which was a gift from my late grand mother, it is priceless item for me. And yet, believe it or not, SF police is not going to dispatch their teams to fetch the phone on my request. And so that you knew, prototypes usually work worse than regular phones.

 

[KingCrimson]

So even the local police departments are in Apple's pocket.

 

[BigPrince]

So even the local police departments are in Apple's pocket.

Based on what? The fact they called the Police to report a missing device and the Police acted on a possible lead to help recover it?

----------

For everybody but Apple (and this includes SF police) it is a regular phone. If, say, I lost a phone which was a gift from my late grand mother, it is priceless item for me. And yet, believe it or not, SF police is not going to dispatch their teams to fetch the phone on my request. And so that you knew, prototypes usually work worse than regular phones.

Really a regular phone? To the competition this ANYTHING BUT A REGULAR PHONE....it doesnt matter how well the prototype works....IT STILL HOLDS TRADE SECRETS.

Your ignoring clear cut reasoning and coming up with your own non-logical work arounds by being in denial about the value of this device.


Apple wasn't going after this device because it lost a device worth about $500...They spent more then that on this investigation.

 

[cere]

I showed you in post #275 where you were wrongly assuming facts.

Um, no you didn't. I clearly delineated the facts, as they stand.

I said "Calderon further claims he was intimidated and threatened." and you said "This is not a fact that both sides concede, therefore it is important to hold this detail with a bit more suspicion and acknowledge that it is only a CLAIM not a FACT."

I didn't say his claim was fact. I said it was further to the known facts. I really could not have been more clear.

 

[BigPrince]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigPrince View Post
Cere,

What are the facts you find in this story?


A phone was lost. Mr. Calderon was visited by the police and Apple. His home, vehicle and PC were searched with nothing found. Calderon's statement agrees with all of this and further contained statements that were at first denied by others and later shown to be true. To this point his veracity holds up. Calderon further claims he was intimidated and threatened.

Then why did you list this with ALL THE OTHER FACTS. By doing so, YOU PRESENTED IT as a fact, there is no separation in your thought here. The way it is written is implies that everything you listed is FACT.

 

[cere]

Then why did you list this with ALL THE OTHER FACTS. By doing so, YOU PRESENTED IT as a fact, there is no separation in your thought here. The way it is written is implies that everything you listed is FACT.

Um, I listed the known facts BECAUSE YOU ASKED ME TO. HOLY **** MAN IT ISN'T THAT HARD.

The SEPARATOR was when I used the word FURTHER. THAT'S WHY IT WASN'T INCLUDED IN THE LIST ITSELF BUT ADDED, WITH THE WORD FURTHER.

HOW MUCH MORE CLEAR COULD THAT HAVE BEEN?