Scathing criticism of the AppleTV 4k (www.theverge.com)

[boltjames]

Anyone can go into the iTunes 4K HDR section and see that this statement is untrue. Not to mention from here on out, most movies are likely going to have an HDR version released.

Let me clarify, Viper: "Content" isn't "Movies".

Speaking for myself and many others, I only watch Movies 5% of the time. The majority of my limited TV viewing time is spent on Live Sports and Live News and TV shows that are shot on video, not film. Until the 95% of what I watch is routinely available in 4K HDR there is no need for 4K HDR in my life.

As far as Movies go, 1080p looks terrific. The detail is miles better than the old days of VHS and DVD, and seriously, you're telling me you can't enjoy Godfather II without seeing the pores in Al Pacino's face or something? The Shawshank Redemption is what, unwatchable if you can't see every curl in Morgan Freeman's hair? Because that's what we're down to here. Just how much definition is necessary?

Not to mention, the current state of Hollywood is so bad....are there really any movies that good to make this anxiety about ultra high definition so important? I can't remember the last movie I watched that made me say whoa, I've got to own that.
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I don't necessarily disagree with what you said but, that still doesn't make this a good decision by Apple. There excuse that TV's switching modes is inelegant is a stretch IMO. I'd argue that most 4k TVs handle the switch pretty seamlessly. My screen goes black for a second, maybe 2 at most then the content displays without any problems. I've never viewed this switch as inelegant or thought about it at all really until today. Apple has brought attention to something that wasn't really an issue.

That's the issue right there, RollTide. 4K TV's handle the switching seamlessly but there are actually very few people who own 4K HDTV's. I myself only got one last week, and that's after transitioning all my tube TV's to HDTV's by 2009. It's only been 8 years since the HDTV revolution, remember? How many people do you know that have replaced their LCD's since then? These things don't break, these things don't lose visual impact over time. HDTV's are a pretty remarkable CE product if you think about it.

Hey, every 23 year old college graduate is buying a 4K panel for his apartment, every 33 year old newlywed is buying a 4K panel for his new starter home, I get that. Don't forget that Mr. & Mrs. Middle Class have 5 HDTV's that work just as well as the day they bought them and look terrific on 1080p cable TV. There is simply no reason for them to upgrade right now. 3D was a joke, curved TV's were a gimmick, they've seen this act before. And those 8 year old panels they own? Many are 720p. Most are 1080p doorbuster specials with limited features. Almost all are connected with 8 year old HDMI cables buried in the wall over the fireplace that can't support modern protocols.

Point being, you need to think of the core Apple TV customer as your mother. She's hearing about Netflix and Hulu and Prime and wants to watch House Of Cards because her mah jong friends told her it's really good. And she has an 8 year old HDTV without smart features. So she goes to Best Buy and the salesperson talks her out of Roku and into Apple TV because it's easier to use. So she buys it. And now she can watch House Of Cards like her friends do.

The Apple TV consumer is one who a) doesn't have a Smart TV and b) thinks Netflix is the killer app. Outside of a few discussion forums, there are no 4K HDR consumers.

 

[vipergts2207]

Let me clarify, Viper: "Content" isn't "Movies".

Speaking for myself and many others, I only watch Movies 5% of the time. The majority of my limited TV viewing time is spent on Live Sports and Live News and TV shows that are shot on video, not film. Until the 95% of what I watch is routinely available in 4K HDR there is no need for 4K HDR in my life.

As far as Movies go, 1080p looks terrific. The detail is miles better than the old days of VHS and DVD, and seriously, you're telling me you can't enjoy Godfather II without seeing the pores in Al Pacino's face or something? The Shawshank Redemption is what, unwatchable if you can't see every curl in Morgan Freeman's hair? Because that's what we're down to here. Just how much definition is necessary?

Not to mention, the current state of Hollywood is so bad....are there really any movies that good to make this anxiety about ultra high definition so important? I can't remember the last movie I watched that made me say whoa, I've got to own that.

Of course not everyone's viewing habits are the same. Unfortunately, yours just happens to be one that doesn't have much in the way of 4K HDR content. To be honest, I don't watch many movies either, but when I do I'd like to watch it with the best picture (and sound for that matter) available. I also think you're getting a bit silly with some of your argument. I don't need something like Godfather II or Shawshank Redemption to be in 4K HDR in order to enjoy it. But if the same content is available in both 4K HDR and 1080p SDR, it's not a hard decision to make on which version I'm going to watch.

 

[andrewstirling]

One more thing about the 2016 LG OLED’s. Dolby Vision can not be calibrated but HDR can. Saying HDR looks worse than HDR is not really true. It can look better but is not always the case. Still, calibrated HDR will look better than non-calibrated DV.

It can be calibrated via the service menu.

 

[andrewstirling]

It’s always a goal at The Verge to post the first review with a negative slant against Apple. I don’t deny the shortcomings but at the Verge they become headlines or the main focus.

They’re important enough shortcomings for me to avoid buying. I wouldn’t be rating the device above a 5/10

 

[andrewstirling]

Point being, you need to think of the core Apple TV customer as your mother. She's hearing about Netflix and Hulu and Prime and wants to watch House Of Cards because her mah jong friends told her it's really good. And she has an 8 year old HDTV without smart features. So she goes to Best Buy and the salesperson talks her out of Roku and into Apple TV because it's easier to use. So she buys it. And now she can watch House Of Cards like her friends do.

The Apple TV consumer is one who a) doesn't have a Smart TV and b) thinks Netflix is the killer app. Outside of a few discussion forums, there are no 4K HDR consumers.

You know I keep hearing about apple’s strategy and how they’re aiming at the people who don’t care about things like native framerate or even native colour space. From the discussions I’ve read you’d think that the Apple TV had the market sewn up.

The reality is, the last gen Apple TV was a bit of a disaster for Apple. The mythical ‘mother’ you describe heard the sales attendees patter and then went with the far cheaper Roku anyway. And she’ll do the same this time.

On the other hand, the enthusiast demographic will once again avoid the 4k Apple tv due to its glaring shortcomings. So who does that leave? The Apple fanboys again who will ‘ooh and ahh’ at the slick interface whilst they wrestle with the ****** remote. The problem for Apple is that there aren’t enough of them to make the product a success.

 

[Packers1958]

I understand. And, frankly, it just isn't very necessary. We all know this isn't the jump in visual fidelity that SD to HD was ten years ago, not even close. I just got my first 4K HDR panel a week ago, had fun using the snake and drone demo's on YouTube in the onboard smart OS to impress my friends, but in the end watching House Of Cards in HDR isn't that important, 1080p looks just as good from 14 feet.

It looks like Apple resisted 4K for two years and now is reluctantly getting onboard but they are doing so in a way that's balanced so they don't appease the 1% and piss off the 99%. Looks like the decision was to piss off the 1%. With the shallow amount of content available and very little hope of broadcasters getting onboard in the near future, it's an interesting technology looking for support that it's not getting.

You do realize that House of Cards is just 4K not 4K HDR. There is a huge difference. HDR and specifically DV HDR is as huge improvement over SDR. One huge difference between 1080p streaming and 4K streaming, is 4K streaming will look a lot better as it streams at a much higher bitrate. 5 to 10 Mbps for HD and 25 Mbps for UHD. Thus 4K UHD will look as good as 1080p blu ray, while 1080p streaming, IMO, looks like crap.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Ive just cancelled my pre-order, I won't get one until this is sorted...Yes DV vs HDR is annoying, but come on why change the frame rate of all material to 60Hz on output. There is only one movie on UHD that is shot that way Billy Lynn...What a blunder by Apple....

 

[andrewstirling]

Ive just cancelled my pre-order, I won't get one until this is sorted...Yes DV vs HDR is annoying, but come on why change the frame rate of all material to 60Hz on output. There is only one movie on UHD that is shot that way Billy Lynn...What a blunder by Apple....

To be fair it won’t change the frame rate to 60fps in the way that you’re suggesting. It’ll use 3:2 pulldown which will cause judder but you won’t see the soap opera effect of motion smoothing. Forcing HDR on SDR content however, is simply too stupid for words.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

To be fair it won’t change the frame rate to 60fps in the way that you’re suggesting. It’ll use 3:2 pulldown which will cause judder but you won’t see the soap opera effect of motion smoothing. Forcing HDR on SDR content however, is simply too stupid for words.

Fair enough, so they will introduce judder for everything then. My LG OLED will also be limited to 30Hz so the games and menu system will be at lower refresh rates. Seems a real mess.

 

[Eorlas]

Until then, 4K HDR is a novelty, it's waterfalls in Iceland or a closeup of a snake or a drone video of Hawaii you play for 60 seconds to make your friends go "whoa, so that's what 4K is?"

...

I've watched Planet Earth 2, John Wick, Arrival, House of Cards, Breaking Bad, and others in 4k. I think the only opinion you've developed of a 4K panel is from what you have seen in a Best Buy.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Let me clarify, Viper: "Content" isn't "Movies".

Speaking for myself and many others, I only watch Movies 5% of the time. The majority of my limited TV viewing time is spent on Live Sports and Live News and TV shows that are shot on video, not film. Until the 95% of what I watch is routinely available in 4K HDR there is no need for 4K HDR in my life.

As far as Movies go, 1080p looks terrific. The detail is miles better than the old days of VHS and DVD, and seriously, you're telling me you can't enjoy Godfather II without seeing the pores in Al Pacino's face or something? The Shawshank Redemption is what, unwatchable if you can't see every curl in Morgan Freeman's hair? Because that's what we're down to here. Just how much definition is necessary?

Not to mention, the current state of Hollywood is so bad....are there really any movies that good to make this anxiety about ultra high definition so important? I can't remember the last movie I watched that made me say whoa, I've got to own that.
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That's the issue right there, RollTide. 4K TV's handle the switching seamlessly but there are actually very few people who own 4K HDTV's. I myself only got one last week, and that's after transitioning all my tube TV's to HDTV's by 2009. It's only been 8 years since the HDTV revolution, remember? How many people do you know that have replaced their LCD's since then? These things don't break, these things don't lose visual impact over time. HDTV's are a pretty remarkable CE product if you think about it.

Hey, every 23 year old college graduate is buying a 4K panel for his apartment, every 33 year old newlywed is buying a 4K panel for his new starter home, I get that. Don't forget that Mr. & Mrs. Middle Class have 5 HDTV's that work just as well as the day they bought them and look terrific on 1080p cable TV. There is simply no reason for them to upgrade right now. 3D was a joke, curved TV's were a gimmick, they've seen this act before. And those 8 year old panels they own? Many are 720p. Most are 1080p doorbuster specials with limited features. Almost all are connected with 8 year old HDMI cables buried in the wall over the fireplace that can't support modern protocols.

Point being, you need to think of the core Apple TV customer as your mother. She's hearing about Netflix and Hulu and Prime and wants to watch House Of Cards because her mah jong friends told her it's really good. And she has an 8 year old HDTV without smart features. So she goes to Best Buy and the salesperson talks her out of Roku and into Apple TV because it's easier to use. So she buys it. And now she can watch House Of Cards like her friends do.

The Apple TV consumer is one who a) doesn't have a Smart TV and b) thinks Netflix is the killer app. Outside of a few discussion forums, there are no 4K HDR consumers.

LOL Really - Let me introduce you to Sky Q TV we get across the pond...or BT Vision UHD....Howabout killer broadcasts like top sports live in UHD with Dolby Atmos sound...

It is here now, and to stay, and well and truly reached the households of what I think you would call 'soccer mums'....

 

[andrewstirling]

Fair enough, so they will introduce judder for everything then. My LG OLED will also be limited to 30Hz so the games and menu system will be at lower refresh rates. Seems a real mess.

Yep. And any SDR content will look absolutely horrific.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Yep. And any SDR content will look absolutely horrific.

yes exactly, if I wanted to 'simulate' HDR on SDR my TV has that build in already.

Hopefully they can fix this in software but for now I'm out, I may as well use my apps in my TV and upgrade my Xbox for 4K games

 

[Spankey]

It can be calibrated via the service menu.

Don't speak out of ignorance. You do not calibrate LG OLED's from the service menu.

Dolby Vision calibration requires a "Golden Reference" file published by Dolby\LG for the display. LG is not releasing that file for the 2016 models. Therefore, 2016 models cannot be calibrated "by instrument" for Dolby Vision.

 

[andrewstirling]

My isf calibrator calibrated it via the service menu.

 

[boltjames]

LOL Really - Let me introduce you to Sky Q TV we get across the pond...or BT Vision UHD....Howabout killer broadcasts like top sports live in UHD with Dolby Atmos sound...

It is here now, and to stay, and well and truly reached the households of what I think you would call 'soccer mums'....

I don't live in the UK so your content does not affect my purchase decision at all. If you have great 4K live sports content over there that's awesome. It doesn't mean American sports are in the same place on the launch curve. You're way ahead of us. Which is good. But only for you.

 

[ant the ninja]

Yep. And any SDR content will look absolutely horrific.

This. This was a terrible idea for them to do, especially since my TV will switch between regular and HDR modes, which have different settings. HDR settings on standard content 4K/HD/SD is going to look terrible. I wish they would just allow the TV to determine the mode it should be.

yes exactly, if I wanted to 'simulate' HDR on SDR my TV has that build in already.

Hopefully they can fix this in software but for now I'm out, I may as well use my apps in my TV and upgrade my Xbox for 4K games

I may have to return my ATV4K because of this, hopefully they will issue a fix but something tells me this is what they were shooting for here.

 

[andrewstirling]

What an absolute shambles.

 

[vipergts2207]

This. This was a terrible idea for them to do, especially since my TV will switch between regular and HDR modes, which have different settings. HDR settings on standard content 4K/HD/SD is going to look terrible. I wish they would just allow the TV to determine the mode it should be.



I may have to return my ATV4K because of this, hopefully they will issue a fix but something tells me this is what they were shooting for here.

Just to be clear, you can change the resolution and dynamic range output manually. Not elegant, but you're not locked in.

 

[ant the ninja]

Just to be clear, you can change the resolution and dynamic range output manually. Not elegant, but you're not locked in.

You can, but I have specific settings for both that I fine tuned and would hate to go back and forth. However you are able to do 4K SDR directly on the Apple TV which turns the HDR signal off but again you’d have to change it back and forth to watch HDR.

I hope they eventually allow you to keep it on 4K SDR until it receives an HDR signal and switches on its own. Until then I’m not sure I’m keeping this I don’t know what to do

 

[HAudidoody]

My own experience reflects this review very closely. In fact, it's a bit worse regarding the way some of the SDR content is presented: dim, flat and washed out.

Also, the banding I'm seeing is worse than I ever saw with 1080P content.

All said, Apple must fix this... soon.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

It would be great when we all ensure feedback is provide to apple as well; apple.com/feedback

They are so close, and it seems like a software fix can resolve this easily...

 

[mmm1345]

........

 

[andrewstirling]

Hacksaw ridge is filmed at 24fps. The oled tv the reviewer has can display hacksaw ridge perfectly at its native frame rate if it’s output correctly by the source. The Apple TV however cannot play Dolby Vision at 24fps apparently. For most TVs it converts to 60hz complete with pulldown judder. For the reviewers TV it converts to 30hz for Dolby Vision. Both of these options are wrong. The problem is not the tv. It’s the Apple TV

 

[cyb3rdud3]

i think the reviewer is an idiot and Im not known for being an apple fangirl but did they try different Oleds? Before slamming all 2016 Oleds?

--- Is his 2016 Oled updated with the latest firmware?
--- Hacksaw Ridge is the only 4K/UHD BR that I can think of that was actually filmed in t4k/HDR Content in 60FP so this complaint is stupid as hell. There may be a couple of others, but it isn't like 4K/HDR is a common format. Most things are filmed at 24 FPS and trying to artificially add 60FPS looks AWFUL. There's nothing that says LG won't issue a patch if it ever becomes a thing.
---- This clown complained about no 4k Disney Marvel movies available "like on other services" when there is only one currently available and that's exclusive to Vudu.
--- He made it sound like Apple offering cheaper 4k Movies and free upgrades was a bad thing.

I'm not one who thinks reviewers are biased. I just think this guy was a lazy idiot which is sad considering he's the editor of an influential tech site. He was looking for things to find wrong.

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This is a STUPID complaint. They offer numerous different OPTIONS. Just change it if you don't like it. It's not that difficult.
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WTF are you talking about? I have a 2017 OLED AND had a 2016 OLED and when last I checked I can Calibrate my DV modes whenever I feel like it. I go to this little thing called picture setting and calibrate to my hearts content. Not everyone has professional level equipment to calibrate TVs at the macro level. Come and live in the REAL world with the rest of us before calling people "ignorant."

Well I’m glad you think it is normal that in 2017 you have to manually change the settings on the Apple TV 4K to match the output to the source video. I think it is a ridiculous notion.

My LG OLED apps don’t do that, my Oppo 203 doesn’t do that, my Denon 4300 leaves it alone, my Xbox One S auto switches.....

It is stupid for you in my opinion to think that it is a stupid complaint - why would you only want to output in one resolution? Sure 24Hz is great for most movies, it isn’t for Billy Lynn for example which is best in 60Hz, and what about TV shows? Depends whether they originate in the USA or elsewhere so that could be 25Hz, 30Hz, 50Hz or 60Hz...And then there is the games and UI, higher is smoother...

Are you seriously suggestion anyone should just go into settings each time and change it? Come on, lets be reasonable about this...