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Sorry, but it happens all the time...

I suppose you've never heard of this thing called "a threat" before, huh?

<rant>
I think it's rather arrogant to give Apple a bad credit for this (calling them threatening you, whine about your hacked phone being blown up). Maybe we could return to the usual mood: There is nothing like a free lunch!

Sorry to all those Apple fanatics, that are so into their iPhone-addiction, that they even import it and hack it to use it. But you knew, what you were doing. And you also have to admit: Shame as it may be, you knew you had to pay a price to own your precious!

On a lesser scale this usually happens with every Software Update you apply to Mac OS X. Suddenly Shapeshifter, Safari addons and the like won't work. Sometimes your system is rendered so crash-prone, that it is barely functional. But OS X hacks aren't a cat and mouse game, because they don't mean anything to Apple.

People, wake up, having hacked iPhones in the wild means losing money to Apple! And for me as a shareholder, and maybe later down the road an owner of an official fully supported iPhone with contract, it is a matter of justice that you *gasp* UNLEGIT IPHONE USERS get screwed.
</rant>
 
There is absolutely no reason for any kind of unhappiness.

It is no big secret that Apple only supports iPhone use with AT&T. If you choose to do otherwise, it is at your own risk, and unsupported by Apple.

Expecting anything else is just silly--it's as simple as that.
 
Apples and oranges. The iPod Touch isn't a PHONE device restricted to a specific carrier, so who needs to unlock it? There isn't a need.

Both devices need to be jailbroken to get applications onto them, and that is a step in unlocking the iPhone. No jailbreak, no unlock. So if the security on the new iPhone firmware is similar to that on the Touch, you're not going to see the hackers just break down the walls in 48 hours, as they've been working on jailbreaking the Touch--unsuccessfully--for nearly two weeks.

So anyone who unlocks will be stuck at 1.0.2 for more than the 48 hours the poster I was replying to was theorizing.
 
Ha. I'm anti-unlocking and even I don't believe that. Anybody wonder why it's *all* the unlock software and methods, but *none* of the third-party applications and installer hacks that have "damaged the iPhone's software". Note, damaged to the point that it *cannot ever be restored*?!?!?!? Please, it's intentional. Has to be. They just can't tell a customer base they'd intentionally break something to keep it locked down.
No, it doesn't have to be intentional. If you go in and muck with the low level operation of the phone, the parts that Apple is relying on for everything else to work, they can't be responsible for knowing what particular changes you made to your particular phone.

Maybe it's easier if you think of it this way-- it sounds as if the unlock hacks are messing around with the phone at the driver level. If you mess with software, and Apple updates that software, they just write over what you did. If you mess with firmware, the drivers, and Apple updates the software, all bets are off. The hardware may not behave the way Apple intended it to because you mucked with it.

This is a simple disclaimer. They're worried that people are playing at too low a level and they can't predict the results so they're telling you they can't predict the results. If the hackers did it right, and it responds to all of Apple's calls they way they expect, then the software won't know the difference and everything's fine. If they don't do it right, and it would be hard for them to since they probably didn't bother to check all the intended entry points into the firmware given rush to be first, then you've got a brick. Apple isn't going to take responsibility for what some nameless adolescent with a disassembler cooked up in their basement.

Macs have firmware too, and it is almost never updated. It is always assumed to be the same from software update to software update. When Apple does push out a firmware update it's usually wrapped in a bunch of warnings saying "don't interrupt the update process" because if you do, and the firmware gets whacked, you're screwed.

I think this is why Bootcamp was released-- so people didn't keep messing with the EFI firmware to make Windows work. They just did it for you so they could predict the results. They can't do that with the iPhone because they have contractual obligations.
 
US is not the whole world

I think it's a very fair move on Apple's part.

Weeeellll...

These discussions have been rather US-centric. The European way of thinking is a bit different.

For example, Apple cannot bring the iPhone to the shop next to me, if they do not change their business model. The local law states strict conditions under which SIM-locking is allowed:

- only for 3G phones (3G, 3.5G, 3Gturbo, etc.)
- maximum duration of the contract is 24 months
- after the 24-month period the operator has to unlock the device on customer's request, free of charge
- the price for which the phone is available without any contract has to be stated
- (etc. etc., but the remaining requirements are not so relevant)

Apple fails at two points. The iPhone has no 3G capability, and the phone is not available without being bound to an operator. Apple will probably fail in the unlocking part, as well.

While the national legislation varies between European countries, the general tendency is to emphasize transparency in pricing. Apple's business model is fine in the US where the operators concentrate on making the pricing information as opaque as possible, but they will have problems in many European countries.

The European approach has been rather effective in keeping the phone bills reasonable. In international comparisons, the countries with more open competition have lower phone costs. If I get mad at my operator, I can switch to another at very easily at no cost without changing my phone or phone number.

I can imagine the real price of the iPhone would be much more than $400, but on the other hand many people seem to use, e.g., Nokia N95 whose street price is around 500 euros ($700) excl. VAT.

So, either Apple is mainly interested only in the US market (without 3G and with binding the customer to one operator), or they will have to do some homework to be able to compete with Nokia and others.
 
This has been covered already. The Unlock software modifies the firmware. The other installer hacks simply copies and modifies files stored in the 4/8GB Flash.

arn

I get that. But software in flash-able firmware and software stored in flash. Tantamount to the same thing. The device is ultimately as reliant and affected by one as the other, although firmware on the iPhone is more comparable to the BIOS on a computer, in that if you mess it up, the device may not be able to boot to the point the other software gets a shot at messing it up.

So say Apple's firmware updates simply patch the existing firmware. There's the problem. The patch is incompatible with the unlock-patched firmware and will therefore brick the iPhone. But if instead patching the firmware, you just re-flashed the whole firmware with expected firmware patched, no brick. If that's the case, Apple is choosing to patch when they could re-flash the whole thing to a stable firmware. They are choosing not to do this. That's tantamount to intentionally bricking unlocked devices as they have a choice. It's not the same as devising something that discovers a phone is unlocked and then bricks it, but by choosing this method of updating the firmware this time rather than choosing a method that spares the unlocked phone it *is* tantamount to intentional.

But, typically, when you update firmware you re-flash the whole thing, anyway, so I'm not even sure why this would be an issue. Re-flash the whole thing with the new version, and other than removing anything any user has done to the firmware, nothing bad happens. Like PSP hackers: if they have hacked firmware that supports home-brew games and other non-Sony functions, and they update to Sony's version of a new firmware, it never bricks the firmware, they just lose everything they had in the hacked firmware.
 
See above. And all updates to iPods and iPhones include firmware updates. They just re-flash the whole firmware, not expecting anything because they blast everything with a stable version. So why would re-flashing the whole firmware to a stable firmware matter one whit in bricking the iPhone? In fact you'd be more likely to brick an iPhone with a firmware update by flashing new firmware that doesn't work with third-party software that is stored on the internal storage than you would just blasting down a clean firmware update, because they touch all of the firmware but not all of the software kept in the storage flash memory.

No, it doesn't have to be intentional. If you go in and muck with the low level operation of the phone, the parts that Apple is relying on for everything else to work, they can't be responsible for knowing what particular changes you made to your particular phone.

Maybe it's easier if you think of it this way-- it sounds as if the unlock hacks are messing around with the phone at the driver level. If you mess with software, and Apple updates that software, they just write over what you did. If you mess with firmware, the drivers, and Apple updates the software, all bets are off. The hardware may not behave the way Apple intended it to because you mucked with it.

This is a simple disclaimer. They're worried that people are playing at too low a level and they can't predict the results so they're telling you they can't predict the results. If the hackers did it right, and it responds to all of Apple's calls they way they expect, then the software won't know the difference and everything's fine. If they don't do it right, and it would be hard for them to since they probably didn't bother to check all the intended entry points into the firmware given rush to be first, then you've got a brick. Apple isn't going to take responsibility for what some nameless adolescent with a disassembler cooked up in their basement.

Macs have firmware too, and it is almost never updated. It is always assumed to be the same from software update to software update. When Apple does push out a firmware update it's usually wrapped in a bunch of warnings saying "don't interrupt the update process" because if you do, and the firmware gets whacked, you're screwed.

I think this is why Bootcamp was released-- so people didn't keep messing with the EFI firmware to make Windows work. They just did it for you so they could predict the results. They can't do that with the iPhone because they have contractual obligations.
 
That's naive. They're telling you not to update so you won't get bricked. Your unlocked phone still works but you're feature-frozen. They're telling you late enough so that some people won't read the warning in time, or are bold and foolish enough to try anyway, and they *will* get bricked, which serves as proof Apple wasn't issuing empty threats, they were serious: unlock your iPhone and use our updates and we will brick your device.

Anybody wants to be mad, be mad at the people who released not only the unlock, but an easily used GUI version of the unlock. There are people on this team of unlock developers who are formally educated computer science professionals, some with graduate degrees, who damn well should have known better than to release their work -- certainly as it turns out quick, dirty, sloppy work that was not fail-safe -- to the public in a form that doesn't even require users savvy enough to run some terminal commands. These people using the GUI version had no idea what they were doing or what they risked, but the unlock team dumped this thing out there up for grabs, anyway.

oK Please listen

The SIM unlock hacks alter the firmware of your iPhone, this is the heart and soul of your phone.

You knew what you were doing and if you didn't, well then here is a great lesson in technology for you.

Also, if Apple wanted to sabotage your iPhone, I doubt they would release a public warning.
 
Sounds like a threat from Apple, I mean people buy the phone from Apple they have already paid, it's your property and there should be nothing wrong by how you decide how you want to use it.
 
See above. And all updates to iPods and iPhones include firmware updates. They just re-flash the whole firmware, not expecting anything because they blast everything with a stable version. So why would re-flashing the whole firmware to a stable firmware matter one whit in bricking the iPhone? In fact you'd be more likely to brick an iPhone with a firmware update by flashing new firmware that doesn't work with third-party software that is stored on the internal storage than you would just blasting down a clean firmware update, because they touch all of the firmware but not all of the software kept in the storage flash memory.
Do you know this for sure? I'd be surprised if Apple updated the low level firmware with every software update-- it's too dangerous. When you design a product that can accept software updates, there's typically a portion you keep in a special sector of flash, that you don't erase when you update everything else. Among other things, that's the bit that tells the processor how to accept the new software (in this case it communicates with iTunes). You don't touch that because if a standard software update fails for any reason you want the lowest level parts to still work so you get a second shot at it. If things get hopelessly mangled, you do a restore and get back to where you started.

The definition of firmware, software and drivers is all kind of vague on an embedded device, so Apple may call different parts different things, but true firmware updates, in the sense I'm referring to, are usually few and far between. This isn't handled by a "restore", it's a separate operation.

It makes sense to keep the SIM handling in this same area because you don't want to risk a software update disconnecting you from your network. Since there's only one approved network, it's much safer from an engineering perspective, to just never touch that bit of code.

I haven't looked into how the unlock hacks work, specifically, but I've designed this kind of stuff before so I'm simply explaining what makes sense to me. The fact that the unlock hacks are "restore resistant" further supports my explanation.
 
Sounds like a threat from Apple, I mean people buy the phone from Apple they have already paid, it's your property and there should be nothing wrong by how you decide how you want to use it.
Right. You can put sugar in your gas tank too-- it's your car after all...
 
Too much misinformation going on over here...

See above. And all updates to iPods and iPhones include firmware updates. They just re-flash the whole firmware, not expecting anything because they blast everything with a stable version.

You really don't know what you are talking about. The iPhone firmware includes the basedband software. The baseband software is the embedded program on the radio chip. This program is what locks the GSM radio to the SIM card. And THIS is the one the unlock modifies.

All previous firmware updates (1.0.1 and 1.0.2) didn't include updates for the baseband because there was no need to. That is why the unlock till now is restore resistant. It is not because a feature of the unlock but because 1.0.2 doesn't unclude a baseband update.

Now that the unlock was out, Apple had to do something about it because of their agreements with AT&T. So they are releasing a new firmware version (1.1.1) that will include an update to the baseband. Updating the baseband will simply replace the modified unlocked one therefore relocking the phone.

The statement released by Apple yesterday is nothing more than a PR stunt to show AT&T that they are doing something about the unlock. They WILL update the baseband but them bricking intentionally is highly highly improbable.
 
Leopard Lock Up?

Hi, if i were to get a new mac this winter with leopard, is there anyway, that pluging in my iPhone (unlocked) to my computer would render it as useless as a non-load-supporting brick?

thanks
 
You guys are brainwashed! OBVIOUSLY Apple is intentionally bricking the iPhone. They don't make any money if people use T-Mobile!

And they'll lose out on an untold number of hardware sales if they brick all the phones that have been unlocked, not to mention that many of the customers who bought - and paid full price for - the iphone will probably not come back to Apple again.

I've met several people who assumed that unlocking the iphone is like any other unlock available for other phones - permanent and harmless.
 
Weeeellll...

These discussions have been rather US-centric. The European way of thinking is a bit different.

For example, Apple cannot bring the iPhone to the shop next to me, if they do not change their business model. The local law states strict conditions under which SIM-locking is allowed:

- only for 3G phones (3G, 3.5G, 3Gturbo, etc.)
- maximum duration of the contract is 24 months
- after the 24-month period the operator has to unlock the device on customer's request, free of charge
- the price for which the phone is available without any contract has to be stated
- (etc. etc., but the remaining requirements are not so relevant)

Apple fails at two points. The iPhone has no 3G capability, and the phone is not available without being bound to an operator. Apple will probably fail in the unlocking part, as well.

While the national legislation varies between European countries, the general tendency is to emphasize transparency in pricing. Apple's business model is fine in the US where the operators concentrate on making the pricing information as opaque as possible, but they will have problems in many European countries.

The European approach has been rather effective in keeping the phone bills reasonable. In international comparisons, the countries with more open competition have lower phone costs. If I get mad at my operator, I can switch to another at very easily at no cost without changing my phone or phone number.

I can imagine the real price of the iPhone would be much more than $400, but on the other hand many people seem to use, e.g., Nokia N95 whose street price is around 500 euros ($700) excl. VAT.

So, either Apple is mainly interested only in the US market (without 3G and with binding the customer to one operator), or they will have to do some homework to be able to compete with Nokia and others.


The EU also sues companies for being successful.
 
Just like the hundreds (or thousands of complaint letters) to Steve Jobs about the iPhone price drop 2-months after release -- if enough (thousands and thousands) people do the same complaining about this iPhone unlocking situation, do you think he may respond favorably? I mean c'mon the iPhone doesn't revolve around the Apple-AT&T partnership alone since there are millons of interested potential iPhone buyers too all over the world especially if it can remain unlocked in their perspective countries... realistically, the iPhone is a worldwide attraction! :rolleyes:
 
You guys are brainwashed! OBVIOUSLY Apple is intentionally bricking the iPhone. They don't make any money if people use T-Mobile!

Apple do make money, it'd be AT&T not making the money.


They are doing the right thing. The best situation would be for Apple to release a sim-free iPhone. But since there are demands for a stellar service (visual voicemail, unlimited data) then it isn't going to sit pretty on other networks if Apple want you to get the most from this device.

And frankly I like that. For too long I've had phones that can do everything under the sun, but locked out as all networks have different services.
 
All the most popular unlock hack does, and possibly all the unlock hacks, is completely overwrite the baseband data. it's down and dirty, shotgun approach. You have to use something like Jailbreak to even do the unlock, but that's incidental, really. Frankly, it seems with some of the comp. sci. academic credentials of the people who created the unlocks, they should have known it was not only dangerous but probably doomed from the start, even had Apple not aggressively responded.

I totally agree with you that how Apple and we are defining the term "firmware" is highly relevant and makes a big difference on what exactly they are doing. I assume we agree that firmware "patches" and "updates" are technically misnomers as no one usually goes in and writes over little areas of firmware flash here and there, but rather re-flashes the whole puppy. But a sacrosanct segment of firmware containing, for analogy's sake, the "iPhone BIOS" would not be touched by a complete re-flash of the segment of firmware handling mid-to-high level operations. The GSM baseband and various other virtually never touched -- may have never really been expected to *ever* be touched unless the carrier changed something on their network -- low-level settings and the rock-bottom bootstrap code would reside here, and indeed "walling off" these things from even Apple's own firmware re-flashes would be a good design decision. That way the designers themselves don't accidentally brick their own device with errant update code because they don't ever touch the area that would brick it.

Also in favor of your argument for a firmware Holy Ground is the fact the restores, which are full firmware re-flashes *do not* relock. Excellent point. Further in favor of your point -- oh hey, don't stop me from dismantling my own case for you to save you the trouble -- is that the rushed-up relocking attempts that hit last night aren't consistently working, meaning trying to rewrite the old baseband data is failing (some people are reporting no relock, some are reporting bricks). Meaning Apple had to work out a way to rewrite the proper baseband data that doesn't fail because they intend to relock. And it's possible that whatever you have to do overwrite the baseband data after it's already been overwritten will brick the phone. Someone mentioned that maybe there's an upper limit on the number of times you can overwrite the baseband. Like the SuperDrive in my Mac laptop: I can set and change the region code, held presumably in a writable firmware segment -- there's even a legitimate Apple-provided way to do this -- but I may do it only so many times, I think between 3 and 5, before the last one I set, that's my region code on that drive forever. It's an artificial limit, of course, to prevent SuperDrives from becoming essentially region-free DVD video players. Perhaps the upper limit on baseband overwrites is 1. And unlike the DVD drive, which won't brick, just won't change regions again over the limit, there's no fail-safe built in for exceeding the limit: it just bricks, maybe because you smash the bootstrap code doing the second baseband overwrite. (Also, by "permanently inoperable" Apple may not mean it will outright brick, that it won't iPod or Safari, but that it will never work on a GSM network again, even AT&T's; but if relocking requires legitimate reactivation and since you'll never get on a GSM network again, and we all know all iPhone's features require activation, it's tantamount to bricking). A low limit would explain why overwriting the baseband to unlock the iPhone doesn't brick it, but Apple overwriting the baseband to relock it does brick it.

There's a potential nasty future problem with this concept, though. If the upper limit is 1, then if Apple with this update overwrites the baseband, even my unhacked, never unlocked, AT&T iPhone-contracted iPhone will have its baseband overwritten. Should Apple ever need to do this relock again, they will have burned my single baseband overwrite this time, and they'll brick my legit iPhone the next time they do it. Of course they can always examine the baseband and if it passes muster, they skip the part of the update that performs the overwrite. Probably this time around a simple checksum on the baseband data would do it. In the future, someone will probably figure out how to unlock with a baseband overwrite that equals Apple's proper baseband data checksum, so they'll have to come up with another way to verify that it's legit baseband data.

The only argument I have right now for my case is the iPod firmware updates -- uninterrupted, perfectly executed updates -- used to brick some iPods, indicating that Apple was indeed blasting all the firmware and if some unknown, possibly random hitch occurred during the process there was not a bit of stable bootstrap code in firmware left to boot the iPod to a stable enough condition to at least be recognized for a restore. But this has seemed to have stopped happening by at least the video iPods, so that argues for your case that they've segmented a hands-off region of firmware that updates don't touch.

Anyway, it's an intriguing mystery.

Do you know this for sure? I'd be surprised if Apple updated the low level firmware with every software update-- it's too dangerous. When you design a product that can accept software updates, there's typically a portion you keep in a special sector of flash, that you don't erase when you update everything else. Among other things, that's the bit that tells the processor how to accept the new software (in this case it communicates with iTunes). You don't touch that because if a standard software update fails for any reason you want the lowest level parts to still work so you get a second shot at it. If things get hopelessly mangled, you do a restore and get back to where you started.

The definition of firmware, software and drivers is all kind of vague on an embedded device, so Apple may call different parts different things, but true firmware updates, in the sense I'm referring to, are usually few and far between. This isn't handled by a "restore", it's a separate operation.

It makes sense to keep the SIM handling in this same area because you don't want to risk a software update disconnecting you from your network. Since there's only one approved network, it's much safer from an engineering perspective, to just never touch that bit of code.

I haven't looked into how the unlock hacks work, specifically, but I've designed this kind of stuff before so I'm simply explaining what makes sense to me. The fact that the unlock hacks are "restore resistant" further supports my explanation.
 
PDE, make an argument, would you? I'd be glad to debate valid points. And you've totally mistaken that I'm happy some people's iPhones might be "rendered inoperable". I think it's a bad situation all around. And I definitely think that while the unlock hackers are not accountable to savvy users who understand the risks, they certainly are ethically accountable for their decision to release the unlock to casual users who have no idea the ramifications of performing the unlock.
 
Weeeellll...

These discussions have been rather US-centric. The European way of thinking is a bit different.

For example, Apple cannot bring the iPhone to the shop next to me, if they do not change their business model. The local law states strict conditions under which SIM-locking is allowed:

- only for 3G phones (3G, 3.5G, 3Gturbo, etc.)
- maximum duration of the contract is 24 months
- after the 24-month period the operator has to unlock the device on customer's request, free of charge
- the price for which the phone is available without any contract has to be stated
- (etc. etc., but the remaining requirements are not so relevant)

Would you have a source for this info? Not that I'm doubting its legitimacy, but I just want to know if such laws are in place in the UK as well and if so the exact details of it. There's most likely some clause in there that Apple will be able to exploit that allows them to continue with their current business model with respect to the iphone.
 
What if ...

About to head to the US this weekend (from UK), was gonna get an iPhone. Few Q's ...

If I get one now, what is the likely firmware on the phone? 1.0.2? Seems very unlikely it would have 1.1.1

If it's pre 1.0.2, can I update the fw to 1.0.2 if apple have pushed out 1.1.1 by the weekend?

Happy to stick with 1.0.2 if 1.1.1 isn't broken/for a while ...
 
See my response to AnalogKid. It clarifies my understanding of the updates and the business of flashing the firmware. I do fully understand the concepts of embedded radio software which you discuss, but I did forget, in the context of Apple products, with a device of this kind, which must operate at a basic level on a radio network, you're more likely, more wise, not to touch some very basic things than with other kinds of devices where you just blast the whole firmware. But with my experience with Airport Basestation, really quite similar, I should have remembers as with those devices you can seriously waffle the firmware, but it's impossible to kill the whole dog so that you can't get it back going through a Byzantine but fail-safe high-level firmware restore procedure (with Basestations, there's always enough stable firmware there to get at it via direct ethernet connection to a Mac over copper). Anyway, I forgot the context.

I think "intentional" is a highly relative term in this case. Barring a hard, low upper limit to baseband overwrites like I mentioned in the response to AnalogKid, or something similar, it's a trivial matter for Apple to figure out how to relock the iPhones without bricking them -- I would say it's not so complex that it would matter in terms of development time and cost. So, I think it's defensible -- again barring something they just can't get around -- to call an update that collaterally bricks unlocks iPhones because they didn't work around that as tantamount to intentional. As an analogy, it's kind of like negligent homicide felonies, as opposed to misdemeanor homicide laws. You didn't mean to kill the person, it was not your plan to kill the person, but you did kill the person by doing something dangerous which you could have easily avoided by being more careful, so it's considered intentional, in law, felonies tend to require intent, and you are charged with a felony criminal count.

So if by intentional we mean, wrote some special code to brick an unlocked iPhone, probably not. But if by intentional we mean could have avoided it when it would have been an easy, cheap thing to avoid while still relocking, then it is indeed intentionally bricking unlocked iPhones.

You really don't know what you are talking about. The iPhone firmware includes the basedband software. The baseband software is the embedded program on the radio chip. This program is what locks the GSM radio to the SIM card. And THIS is the one the unlock modifies.

All previous firmware updates (1.0.1 and 1.0.2) didn't include updates for the baseband because there was no need to. That is why the unlock till now is restore resistant. It is not because a feature of the unlock but because 1.0.2 doesn't unclude a baseband update.

Now that the unlock was out, Apple had to do something about it because of their agreements with AT&T. So they are releasing a new firmware version (1.1.1) that will include an update to the baseband. Updating the baseband will simply replace the modified unlocked one therefore relocking the phone.

The statement released by Apple yesterday is nothing more than a PR stunt to show AT&T that they are doing something about the unlock. They WILL update the baseband but them bricking intentionally is highly highly improbable.
 
Should Apple ever need to do this relock again, they will have burned my single baseband overwrite this time, and they'll brick my legit iPhone the next time they do it.

Geez dude. So your point is that the hackers are bad because if they hadn't done what they did, you wouldn't have to update you baseband.

If anything, you should be grateful that these guys found out those holes in the firmware which Apple is now patching. This is like complaining about security patches provided for OS X because some researchers discovered a vulnerability in the mach kernel. After all, if they didn't try discovering problems in OS X, you wouldn't need to install anything :rolleyes:.

The fact is, after this new firmware is out, you should have a more secure and stable phone than the one you had before.
 
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