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If you are a tinkerer who has bought or will buy multiple iPhones to keep tinkering with them, and you can afford this, you know, do whatever you want, just don't drag casual consumer-style customers down with you by releasing into the wild things they don't understand that might permanently brick their phones

What does that even mean? Casual consumers don't spend their time reading forums and jailbreaking their phones. A casual consumer will walk into an Apple store, buy an iPhone, let someone activate it for him on the spot, and go home. These ARE casual consumers. You, me, and people on this very forum are no casual consumers.

The unlock is for people that know what they are doing, you need to fake activate your phone. Jailbreak it. Install the BSD subsystem..etc. Tinkering with your phone has a consequence and people who do that know it. This is a price one pays for not being locked to a single carrier for a good 2 years.
 
Apple went the wrong way with the iPhone. It should have been sold unlocked, free of contracts. Why didn't they chose this road? Were they afraid that the iPhone was not strong enough, and needed support by bigger cellphone carriers to succeed? Is it pure greed? Now it is only exclusive to people prepared to sign a long term contract, in specific countries. Not to mention the lack of support for 3rd party applications. So many people that like the iPhone, but can't really have any joy with it. By locking themselves up to certain carriers, they are also forced to deal with these ridiculous things like intentionally bricking people's unlocked iPhones. Just trouble for you Apple, why don't you get it?

I've been think about this too, why didn't apple just release an unlocked phone but I think the answer is actually quite simple.

As we all know apple is a little bit obsessed with user experience and thats why they make such great products, the user experience comes first, but i think in this case that has gone too far. Apple came up with a very cool product with features like visual voicemail and a full on browser, the problem with these features, and some of the others on the iPhone is that they can't be achieved in a single piece of hardware. They need network support. Other phone manufacturers would have just scrapped the idea but apple wanted it exactly how they envisioned it and so had to lock you into a network so you got the maximum user experience.

(Anyone remember the rumours or apple creating their own network by renting from others, i think that was so they had almost complete control but they had to step down a level and are having to team up with AT&T, O2, T-mobile, etc...)

I know this specific network support doesn't apply to the safari browser as you could use that on any network but if they just let you chose your own network and tariff what percentage of average joe would go and buy a (working in english here) a £20 a month add on to their £25 a month contract just so they could get unlimited data and The Cloud wifi access? probably not that many, and that would detract from the user experience and apple can't let that happen because they are control freaks. They need for you to have exactly the experience they set out and if that means locking you into a contract so that you can use features they have kicked that network into having then so be it.

I don't think they are going 'all M$' on us as people have suggested, they just refuse to back down from their 'user experience before all else' mantra.

------------------------------------

On another completely different note i thought i'd like to add that you can argue about whether apples warning about the unlocked phones getting bricked is a threat or just a good mannered warning so you don't end up with a paper weight all you like but the upshot is that people who were umming and ahhing about whether to get an iPhone and unlock it and cope with the risks (such as myself) will now be having serious doubts about doing it and be looking at getting one of the kosher contracts with the unlimited access and wifi.

I personally am doing that as i have begun to see that the O2 contracts aren't actually that bad when the data and wifi are incorporated plus i currently pay £35pm anyway so an extra £10pm (i would get the £45 contract) for a phone that actually does everything i want it too WELL as opposed to my current Samsung phone which annoys the hell out of me sometimes (but i did get free with an ipod shuffle bundled). Also I went and played with an iPod touch in the southampton apple store yesterday and im in love with the interface so i may have to get myself an iPhone now
 
I love people who try to circumvent the standards Apple put on the Iphone, then are pissed at Apple for trying to prevent it.

It is your choice to modify the phone.

You should be happy that Apple made a phone.

If it is such a pain in the ass, then get rid of it and get another phone.

The phone has only been out only for a few months be a little patient.
 
Agreed. It's like buying a car but being told you can only drive it in certain states, and if you venture off into other states not listed as appropriate, we'll seize your engine.

That's a good analogy, but think about how we got here. Years ago, you didn't get subsidized or free phones. You paid a lot for a phone and you then paid for service. Then the public gobbled up "free" phones with contracts and thus set the business model and relationship between carriers, manufacturers, and customers. Regardless of what Apple says, the iPhone is subsidized as long as Apple considers AT&T revenue as part of the equation, which they do.

This is not going to change until customers refuse to buy susbsidized phones and demand full unlocked phones and be willing to go without service until they get them.

It's just like people complaining about Walmart selling cheap Chinese toys and treating their employees like garbage. It's going to continue as long as people shop at Walmart.
 
So I don't need a nee version of independence and just activate and jailbreak the iphone and I can just use the iphone under att without a contract? Also will firmware 1.1.1 really brick my fone if I try to unlock it under att without a contract?
 
So I don't need a nee version of independence and just activate and jailbreak the iphone and I can just use the iphone under att without a contract? Also will firmware 1.1.1 really brick my fone if I try to unlock it under att without a contract?

If you are concerned, do not unlock. Wait. Having an AT&T voice-only plan SIM in there will not save you. The update will look at baseband data, most likely, and if it's not the official baseband data, it will overwrite and therein lies the brick risk. The unlocks overwrite the official baseband data with hacked baseband data. Even if you are using an AT&T SIM your phone will appear as unlocked to the installer -- really, because it is only our choice you are using AT&T; it *is* unlocked.
 
If you are concerned, do not unlock. Wait. Having an AT&T voice-only plan SIM in there will not save you. The update will look at baseband data, most likely, and if it's not the official baseband data, it will overwrite and therein lies the brick risk. The unlocks overwrite the official baseband data with hacked baseband data. Even if you are using an AT&T SIM your phone will appear as unlocked to the installer -- really, because it is only our choice you are using AT&T; it *is* unlocked.

But if you just activate the iPhone that's not actually re-writing any Firmware or baseband data is it? Its just fooling the phone into thinking it had been activated through iTunes which is a software thing. I think what hiitzDENNIS was asking was do you have to activate then unlock the phone to use any AT&T SIM from another (ie non-iPhone) plan or do you only need the unlock part if you want to use a SIM from another carrier other than AT&T in the iPhone.

I personally would like to know this too as I am already an O2 customer so buying an iPhone on the 9th so i could activate it and stick my current SIM in would be great for me but i'm not messing with the firmware by unlocking it as there seems to be a good chance it will either brick the phone at a later date with updates OR that i would be feature frozen.
 
Apple and AT&T won't do in-store activations. I'm not sure it's Apple policy, but I've seen reps of both refuse right there in the store. AT&T it is corporate store policy, I asked when they refused someone -- they don't even have a computer running iTunes in the store. To some degree this makes sense, considering the way the iPhone links with and interacts with iTunes on a PC or Mac unique to a person or family. Both stores will run a credit check and give you a pre-authorized credit approval number, but activating for you is definitely not a given.

You are certainly aware of the risks. These forums, I'd say a fair number are pretty savvy. But just judging from some of the questions I've answered only this morning, due to the iPhone lots of very casual consumers have flocked to any kind of Apple-related forums. I've seen numerous questions about using unlocked iPhones with Sprint or Verizon. Those would definitely be casual consumers.

But these forums really aren't what I'm talking about. There is one blog in particular on a network of blogs read by a lot of people, and a lot of people read blogs these days, that is regularly posting very simple step-by-step instructions on how to use at least anySIM to unlock an iPhone. Simple enough for people very technically disinclined to follow and succeed. Very tempting for people want an iPhone but have no local AT&T service, or are in a T-mobile contract, what have you, will try, succeed and have no idea what really might happen.

You hacking something and giving that over to a close group of professional or personal acquaintances whom you know to have a clue, that's one thing. People with doctoral level education in their field hacking something and publishing it on corporate-owned, mainstream-advertising-funded, for-profit blogs skimmed by perhaps millions of people every week, that's entirely another thing.

p.s. I missed your post about my saying hackers are bad because they might cause Apple to brick my legit -- you know what I mean by legit, so don't make too much of it: it's just an easy, short way to write "AT&T-iPhone-contracted, never unlocked, never hacked iPhone" -- iPhone with future updates because they overwrite my baseband. That's not what I meant. I meant if the potential bricking is due to some max limit of like 1 on baseband overwrites, then in the future it's a technical problem for Apple to find another way to relock unlocked phone as you can't just willy-nilly overwrite the baseband because phones that have never been unlocked will have had the baseband overwritten by this update. But it may be moot point now, really, as someone posted that update 1.0.1 overwrote the baseband; if there's a max limit on baseband overwrites, and they intend to overwrite everyone this time, then that number is at least 2.

What does that even mean? Casual consumers don't spend their time reading forums and jailbreaking their phones. A casual consumer will walk into an Apple store, buy an iPhone, let someone activate it for him on the spot, and go home. These ARE casual consumers. You, me, and people on this very forum are no casual consumers.

The unlock is for people that know what they are doing, you need to fake activate your phone. Jailbreak it. Install the BSD subsystem..etc. Tinkering with your phone has a consequence and people who do that know it. This is a price one pays for not being locked to a single carrier for a good 2 years.
 
The statement orginally released by Apple was a VERY COOL way of saying, we understand, we know what you did, you're a customer, just make sure you're straight before the update. I think this was insanely cool of Apple. They know they got hacked, but business being business, they have to do something about it and they are giving those in the proverbial "Know" a chance to play it straight before your iPhone is "Bricked".

An Apple/Steve Jobs lemming may view Apple's statement as such, but someone more grounded in reality sees it as, "We don't want you messing with out stuff, even if you paid $400. We only want the iPhone to do what we want with who we want. If you've been thinking of using one of these hacks you read about online, don't. If you've been thinking of buying an iPhone and unlocking it, tough - sign up with AT&T instead so we get our cut." All while Phil stands in the background slowly ramming his right fist into his open left palm...
 
Agreed. It's like buying a car but being told you can only drive it in certain states, and if you venture off into other states not listed as appropriate, we'll seize your engine.

Actually this seems more akin to buying a car and being told that you shouldn't run it on certain types of gas.

IMHO, whether or not Apple is "right" for keeping the phone locked to AT&T isn't really an issue. It's legal so they can do it. It's up to you to decide if you want that or not. If not, you're welcome to try to mess with things, but Apple can release updates (and seems to be) to counter such messing. Is Microsoft responsible if some obscure update to Windows causes problems with certain programs, or is incompatible with drivers for any of thousands of items of hardware causing them to be unusable?

It's been mentioned before (even in this thread), but there are other carrier specific phones also.

I do think it's wrong for uninformed users to be punished, but on the other hand, they should have educated themselves on the consequences of their actions.
 
Or to put it another way, imagine that you went out and bought a DVD but then you find out you need to live in the USA and have a USA specific DVD machine to play it?

Nice try, but that's not at all like this.

There's a reasonable explanation that things in different countries won't work with one another. Different power supplies, different currencies, different languages. I think the poster you're replying to had a good analogy. This is like buying a fork and being told you can only use it to eat peas with. "But it can pick up other food stuffs just as well!" you say? Too bad. It was sold to you under the assumption that you'd only use it to eat peas, and if you attempt to pick up corn or beef or fish it will fall apart. Too bad!



People, wake up, having hacked iPhones in the wild means losing money to Apple! And for me as a shareholder, and maybe later down the road an owner of an official fully supported iPhone with contract, it is a matter of justice that you *gasp* UNLEGIT IPHONE USERS get screwed.
</rant>

Apple shareholders, wake up, if you've truly been reading these forums you'd see the VAST majority of the people unlocking iPhones are folks who would otherwise NOT buy an iPhone. People who can't use them in their countries (and won't be able to for a long, long time) or people who despise AT&T or O2 or whomever and would never sign a contract with them, preferring to not have an iPhone and keep using their old phone if they had to. The unlock opened up a world of profit for Apple from these customers. Would they rather not make a cent of these people, or would they rather sell them a nice, $399 piece of hardware?



It is no big secret that Apple only supports iPhone use with AT&T. If you choose to do otherwise, it is at your own risk, and unsupported by Apple.


There's a big difference between something being "unsupported" by Apple and something being consciously broken, and it seems to me that we're dealing with that latter here (which is a safe assumption until we know otherwise).
 
this is just a good faith attempt to get the apple loyal who happen not to be at&t loyal to get their iphones back to factory settings before the next update. anyone who unlocked their phone did so knowing the risks and understood that this was inevitable. they bought it with free knowledge of a contract to legitimately use the iphone and then worked around it. time for apple to update as they would, they, i'm sure took a few of their iphones laying around and unlocked them, applied the the update and they crashed. iphones not unlocked were unscathed. user fault. iphones can be anti unlocked, be thankful someone figured that one out, so restore your iphone, update it and then go back to doing what you want but be aware you'll have to restore it again during the next major update. nature of the beast, man, nature of the beast.

p.s. if microsoft came up with a phone zune and you unlocked it to use whatever carrier you wanted, do you really think gates or whoever would go out and say, "by the way, you might want to restore your icrapcoloredphonezune back to factory settings because we're about to release an update that might render it as useful as a brick." common, you've gotta be kidding me. apple cares, they understand someone bought an iphone but didn't want the contract, but that person is an apple customer first and they're taking care of all them.

Well put.
 
An Apple/Steve Jobs lemming may view Apple's statement as such, but someone more grounded in reality sees it as, "We don't want you messing with out stuff, even if you paid $400. We only want the iPhone to do what we want with who we want. If you've been thinking of using one of these hacks you read about online, don't. If you've been thinking of buying an iPhone and unlocking it, tough - sign up with AT&T instead so we get our cut." All while Phil stands in the background slowly ramming his right fist into his open left palm...

Lame.
 
Let's be honest here folks.... There is probably a very small number of the 1,000,000 iPhone's sold that have been hacked or unlocked. I'm going to guess less than 1,000 total. Most users - the one's the don't read MacRumors - don't care enough or have the technical skills needed to unlock their phone.

Also (I know this has been said by others) at least Apple is saying, "Hey, you may want to restore your phone or get rid of the hack's if possible. We're issuing an update that might mess up your phone." This is much more of a warning than you'd get from most companies. If Apple was really mean about this, they would just issue the update without any warning.
 
Nice try, but that's not at all like this.

There's a reasonable explanation that things in different countries won't work with one another. Different power supplies, different currencies, different languages. I think the poster you're replying to had a good analogy. This is like buying a fork and being told you can only use it to eat peas with. "But it can pick up other food stuffs just as well!" you say? Too bad. It was sold to you under the assumption that you'd only use it to eat peas, and if you attempt to pick up corn or beef or fish it will fall apart. Too bad!





Apple shareholders, wake up, if you've truly been reading these forums you'd see the VAST majority of the people unlocking iPhones are folks who would otherwise NOT buy an iPhone. People who can't use them in their countries (and won't be able to for a long, long time) or people who despise AT&T or O2 or whomever and would never sign a contract with them, preferring to not have an iPhone and keep using their old phone if they had to. The unlock opened up a world of profit for Apple from these customers. Would they rather not make a cent of these people, or would they rather sell them a nice, $399 piece of hardware?






There's a big difference between something being "unsupported" by Apple and something being consciously broken, and it seems to me that we're dealing with that latter here (which is a safe assumption until we know otherwise).

Wow, where do I start... Actually, I'm not going to bother trying to counter what are clearly ignorant comments posted by someone ticked that he can't run an obscure version of BeOS on his iPhone. As said by another poster, "Lame."
 
This is scary!

I find it incredible how many people are NOT upset with this. And i'm not just talking about the iPhone. This indicates a state of mind in the US that is becoming more and more common everyday. "They said I can't do something, so I won't" No one really thinks about how ludicrous it is that Apple/att (or any providers for that matter) can lock you into an agreement. Without choices users lose. period. It's sad that anyone would support Apple in this action. But it's really not this that made me ashamed to be an apple fan. It was the fact that they signed on with any carrier. I love apple but I don't like some of the directions they are taking. If they continue to try and tell me what I can and cannot do I will be forced back to the PC world. Although that's not much better with TPM coming out. Technology is power and people are just starting to feel the oppression that companies and governments are capable of. Thank god for hackers. I hope they keep up.
 
Now that's a whole different story, the rampant contractual exclusivication -- nice made-up word, huh? -- of the American retail market. You ask me if I'd unlock my iPhone, I say no. You ask me if I have a problem with the stateside trend that makes me unable to safely unlock my iPhone, oh you bet.

I find it incredible how many people are NOT upset with this. And i'm not just talking about the iPhone. This indicates a state of mind in the US that is becoming more and more common everyday. "They said I can't do something, so I won't" No one really thinks about how ludicrous it is that Apple/att (or any providers for that matter) can lock you into an agreement. Without choices users lose. period. It's sad that anyone would support Apple in this action. But it's really not this that made me ashamed to be an apple fan. It was the fact that they signed on with any carrier. I love apple but I don't like some of the directions they are taking. If they continue to try and tell me what I can and cannot do I will be forced back to the PC world. Although that's not much better with TPM coming out. Technology is power and people are just starting to feel the oppression that companies and governments are capable of. Thank god for hackers. I hope they keep up.
 
Now that's a whole different story, the rampant contractual exclusivication -- nice made-up word, huh? -- of the American retail market. You ask me if I'd unlock my iPhone, I say no. You ask me if I have a problem with the stateside trend that makes me unable to safely unlock my iPhone, oh you bet.

Jeebus...do you get paid by the post?

:rolleyes:
 
I think Apple had a fine line to walk here. They are not obligated to support a third party unlock hack. If you live in a country where unlocking is legal AND the iphone is being offered by Apple in your country, they will probably offer a LEGAL unlocked version. With their software. Apple's not going to ask iphonesimfree to do the unlocking for them.

I think this is a complicated and sticky issue. BUT the thing to remember is that unlocking can still be illegal or not supported by the company if the company did not create the unlock. The EU can tell Apple to unlock the phone or provide a correct, legal, unlock code to carriers. Apple will obey because they have to obey. They do not have to tell Apple to support anyone's homegrown hack to unlock it; they only have to require that Apple, the company that created the phone, provide an unlock. And when Apple creates an unlock for it, it won't get broken on a firmware update.

I think that you can interpret the press release in a few ways, and certainly I understand why people responded by seeing it as threat. I see it as a cover-your-ass warning shot. If you upgrade and it works on your unlocked phone, so they scared you a little. But if it bricks phones, then you had a heads up and didn't upgrade because you knew it might not work. Saves them the headache of headlines like "NEW FIRMWARE DESTROYS IPHONES" and such.
 
Actually this seems more akin to buying a car and being told that you shouldn't run it on certain types of gas.

IMHO, whether or not Apple is "right" for keeping the phone locked to AT&T isn't really an issue. It's legal so they can do it. It's up to you to decide if you want that or not. If not, you're welcome to try to mess with things, but Apple can release updates (and seems to be) to counter such messing. Is Microsoft responsible if some obscure update to Windows causes problems with certain programs, or is incompatible with drivers for any of thousands of items of hardware causing them to be unusable?

It's been mentioned before (even in this thread), but there are other carrier specific phones also.

I do think it's wrong for uninformed users to be punished, but on the other hand, they should have educated themselves on the consequences of their actions.

Not so. The issue is pricing. Re-read my post. The point is when a consumer is purchasing a phone at full price, there is no contract required at the time of purchase. The consumer paid in full for the device, they own the device and can chose to do with it as they wish (i.e. use another compatible carrier or throw it off their roof for all the company cares). However, when the consumer purchases the phone at a REDUCED CONTRACT price, the consumer agrees to use the phone for the agreed contract time and with that particular carrier.

The iPhone is only offered at full price, which in the mobile industry translates to full ownership. No, it's not law (that I know of), so you are correct in stating that Apple is in their legal right. However, other posters have made excellent points that it is our fault, the U.S. consumer, for allowing these companies to dictate how we use our products. Our dollar signs and complacency has led to companies dictating how and where we use products we have purchased. E.U. has kept the interests of the company AND the consumer at heart by allowing legal right to unlocked phones and restriction of contractual usages.

Lastly, the iPhone is NOT subsidized. ATT does not pay for any part of the iPhone, the consumer pays one price, full price, for the device. By US standards set in motion by mobile service providers, this dictates that an unsubsidized unlocked phone sold at full price should be able to be used on compatible networks.

Again, it is our own fault, the US consumer, for allowing this to happen. Our dollars have gone to companies that enforce these types of restrictions. We only have ourselves to thank, and I am one of them, I bought an unsubsidized locked iPhone to be used exclusively on ATT Wireless' network.

That is all :)
 
Apple do make money, it'd be AT&T not making the money.

No, you see, Apple wants to make *MORE* money. That's what's at the heart of this.



You accepted an agreement purchasing the phone, this is what is REQUIRED for Apple to support you in their software updates.

As many have pointed out, we still don't know that it was "required." Until we know for sure, I'm not going to give the $130 billion corporation the benefit of the doubt.



Regardless of what Apple says, the iPhone is subsidized as long as Apple considers AT&T revenue as part of the equation, which they do.

Then how come the iPod touch isn't $800?




Please, shower me with more of your wisdom...



Wow, where do I start... Actually, I'm not going to bother trying to counter what are clearly ignorant comments posted by someone ticked that he can't run an obscure version of BeOS on his iPhone. As said by another poster, "Lame."

Ah, another genius. Please, enlighten me as to why my very valid points are not valid. Don't keep those no doubt witty and well-thought out rebuttals to yourself. Oh, and I don't own an iPhone, so you're not starting off your argument very well...
 
Hmm. If the update is released today, I'll agree with you. It was a last minute, Do we cover ourselves with a statement or not? decision -- and the update is highly unlikely to actually brick unlocked phones; might relock them but not "render them permanently inoperable". If the update isn't released until Thursday or Friday, they are setting out to brick, and they're giving time for anyone with unlocked phones to read the news release and know they better not update or they will have serious problems.

I think Apple had a fine line to walk here. They are not obligated to support a third party unlock hack. If you live in a country where unlocking is legal AND the iphone is being offered by Apple in your country, they will probably offer a LEGAL unlocked version. With their software. Apple's not going to ask iphonesimfree to do the unlocking for them.

I think this is a complicated and sticky issue. BUT the thing to remember is that unlocking can still be illegal or not supported by the company if the company did not create the unlock. The EU can tell Apple to unlock the phone or provide a correct, legal, unlock code to carriers. Apple will obey because they have to obey. They do not have to tell Apple to support anyone's homegrown hack to unlock it; they only have to require that Apple, the company that created the phone, provide an unlock. And when Apple creates an unlock for it, it won't get broken on a firmware update.

I think that you can interpret the press release in a few ways, and certainly I understand why people responded by seeing it as threat. I see it as a cover-your-ass warning shot. If you upgrade and it works on your unlocked phone, so they scared you a little. But if it bricks phones, then you had a heads up and didn't upgrade because you knew it might not work. Saves them the headache of headlines like "NEW FIRMWARE DESTROYS IPHONES" and such.
 
Oh, and I don't own an iPhone, so you're not starting off your argument very well...

Irrelevant. You have to be 18 or older to enter into a legally binding contract in the United States. Apple considers iPhone to require a contract. They wouldn't have sold you one until you're 18.
 
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