Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I don't like Cook at all as CEO, but financially he seems pretty solid and I don't see him being partial to Musk's financial game playing and shipping products with known problems bad parts.
So how do you explain Tesla being "tops in buyer satisfaction"?
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-customer-satisfaction-20171221-story.html
And if you've got an explanation for that, how about this?
https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2017/8...0k-miles-with-less-than-11k-maintenance-costs

Honestly, I'm wondering if your income depends on oil.
 
I used Maps for a 4000km road trip in France and Spain. They have been flawless.

Siri, like all other digital assistants, is in its infancy.
I agreed. I just used this summer on a trip across Italy, Switzerland and France and just on two occasions it did not accurately said I arrived on the right place but overall my experience was positive. I was worried at first but in the end it was all good. I started first with Via Michelin app and it was lagging so much.
It's true that Apple Maps have a way to go. For me the biggest issue is Siri. That one for sure needs more improvement.
[doublepost=1535153272][/doublepost]
“Do you wanna sell watch bands for the rest of your life or do you want to come with Elon and change the future of transport and energy consumption”

Love Apple. Hate the past 5 years. Invested long in tesla. Elon has balls and ambition. Meanwhile Captain Cook and his crew are giving us more watch straps, $5k laptops that you can’t service and have abandoned the Mac line.

You tell me who is the loony tune.
Can't disagreed with you here. Apple for sure could be more ambitious and innovative. While I still love their products they could do way more instead of just making money all over the place.
I love Tesla and how Elon is pushing the envelope. Yes, he is sometimes too much hype but he has the same DNA of Steve. Apple misses someone like this. They are too safe and predictable nowadays.
 
Seriously? I post links showing how actual buyers feel about their Teslas and you really think that a "report" from some analyst with a financial incentive to knock the company is some sort of equivalent? Really???

By the way, if you actually read that word salad, you'll see that even there, the Model 3 has 90% customer satisfaction. Of course, you can't believe anything they say: they actually claim that:
Being an electric vehicle, the Model 3 in “inherently more difficult to service
which is so ridiculous I can't begin to describe it. I'll just note that I spent $80 on an OIL CHANGE this week!!! I can't wait for an EV so I don't have to spend so much on repairs.
 
Last edited:
In a few years as ICE makers start to go bankrupt (the transition to EVs rightly scares them) it will be interesting to reread these stories.

Why would it scare them?

I see very few of you on the road. Most people are blocking the passing lane because they don't want to drive. They just want to get in line to follow the car in front of them. Why? Because that requires less thought/effort than actually driving the car.

Self driving will take a few months for people to get used to when it is out, and then it will be the norm. Not because car makers will sell it, but because people want it much more than they realize now.

I might agree with you somewhat here, in the sense that most drivers are already nearly 'just along for the ride.' The problem is the actual technology, though. AI (in this context) is a farce. It isn't going to work well beyond a few narrow and controlled situations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Solomani
Why would it scare them?

Because their current revenue model is entrenched in internal combustion engines. Pivoting to EV's would be near impossible on a ship their size. Their revenue streams are all hinged on the efficiencies and economies of scale they've achieved with ICE manufacture and service. The second part being the the doubt hand-in-glove relationship with the multi-trilion dollar (annually) oil and gas industry. They would be cannibalising their core business and alienating key business allies.

This is why we've only seen piecemeal progression towards battery powered vehicles from Legacy Automakers over the past two decades. Hybrid engines are neither fish nor fowl and only a half-measures. Most other EV's we've seen are concept cars marked as "coming soon" with no intention to ever be offered to the consumer. The other EV's we see are 'compliance' cars made under duress to avoid heavy tax penalties designed to force automakers to make EV's. Eg. The Chevy Volt is quite a fine car based on all reviews, however GM makes a LOSS on each of these sold at the MSRP and the staff at dealerships aren't incentivised to sell it in any way as it's a car that looses money out the gate and down the line in service costs.

Tesla are building and running what will be one of largest battery factories in the world (Gigafactory1 Nevada) to reduce the cost of battery packs via economy of scale. This is the most expensive part of an EV and the key to getting the MSRP price down while turning a healthy profit margin on an EV. None of the other legacy automakers are doing this as seriously as Tesla, instead outsourcing battery pack production in small volumes or waiting for vapourware battery technology which as we all know here on Macrumors is promised every 6mths in research papers but never makes it into commercial products.

It's taken a non-vested interest like Tesla to shake up the industry. If there wasn't a Tesla we wouldn't be seeing a Model 3 this year from anyone else.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cwt2nospam
Why would it scare them?
See b-dogg's reply, then consider what's going to happen when ICE makers need to truly make the switch. Forget about Tesla and think about what happens when an ICE maker's production level is 10% EV and 90% ICE. They'll have gone from 0% EV to 10% because there will be consumer demand, meaning that consumers recognize that ICE is dead technology. How are they going to make a profit on the other 90% of their production? Answer: they're not going to.
I might agree with you somewhat here, in the sense that most drivers are already nearly 'just along for the ride.' The problem is the actual technology, though. AI (in this context) is a farce. It isn't going to work well beyond a few narrow and controlled situations.
Yeah, and that "internet" thing is just a fad. The fact is that self-driving tech isn't even in its infancy yet and people are already relying on it as if it were mature even though they shouldn't.
 
Because their current revenue model is entrenched in internal combustion engines. Pivoting to EV's would be near impossible on a ship their size. Their revenue streams are all hinged on the efficiencies and economies of scale they've achieved with ICE manufacture and service. The second part being the the doubt hand-in-glove relationship with the multi-trilion dollar (annually) oil and gas industry. They would be cannibalising their core business and alienating key business allies.

This is why we've only seen piecemeal progression towards battery powered vehicles from Legacy Automakers over the past two decades. Hybrid engines are neither fish nor fowl and only a half-measures. Most other EV's we've seen are concept cars marked as "coming soon" with no intention to ever be offered to the consumer. The other EV's we see are 'compliance' cars made under duress to avoid heavy tax penalties designed to force automakers to make EV's. Eg. The Chevy Volt is quite a fine car based on all reviews, however GM makes a LOSS on each of these sold at the MSRP and the staff at dealerships aren't incentivised to sell it in any way as it's a car that looses money out the gate and down the line in service costs.

Tesla are building and running what will be one of largest battery factories in the world (Gigafactory1 Nevada) to reduce the cost of battery packs via economy of scale. This is the most expensive part of an EV and the key to getting the MSRP price down while turning a healthy profit margin on an EV. None of the other legacy automakers are doing this as seriously as Tesla, instead outsourcing battery pack production in small volumes or waiting for vapourware battery technology which as we all know here on Macrumors is promised every 6mths in research papers but never makes it into commercial products.

It's taken a non-vested interest like Tesla to shake up the industry. If there wasn't a Tesla we wouldn't be seeing a Model 3 this year from anyone else.

I agree there are some transition challenges, such as service, parts, training, and such the traditional makers will have to face at their scale. But, I think that isn't nearly a difficult as the road Tesla has ahead of it in terms of scaling.

Much of your response, though IMO, is kind of historically challenged conspiracy theory. These companies make cars. Why should they care that they use gas/diesel? Yes, they have a lot invested in development of engine technology, but they have made all sorts of transitions in that regard over the years to fit consumer demand and government regulation.

Yes, the battery is kind of the key right now for building for the masses. The technology didn't even exist to make an EV realistic until the mid-2000s. Do you remember the laptops and such we had up until then... where we could barely squeeze out a couple hours of operation and they often went bad after a year or two? You can't put that in a car... no one would want one.

And... even with the rather huge leaps in battery tech, Tesla's cars are just on the cusp of being a realistic option (cost aside) for some now sizable market of typical consumers.

For example, even if I wanted and could afford a Tesla, I wouldn't be able to realistically use one for the last half-decade or so. I couldn't even get one home from the dealer w/o making special arrangements with private individuals or hotels, as I lived too far from the dealer or any chargers. And, I would have had to be VERY careful if I made any out of town trips (as I lived in northern British Columbia!).

I've been an EV fan since before there even was a company called Tesla. The first one I saw was based on a Mini and had 4 stepper motors much like the AWD Teslas, and like 600+ hp, etc. I've been following the industry ever since. My background is in electronic engineering and I've spent a good bit of time working on cars as well. (You might consider what the 928 in my user handle means, for example.)

There is no great conspiracy holding EV cars back any more than there was some conspiracy holding back producing an iPad in the 90s. The technology involved is just becoming realistic, especially when cost is taken into account. That's why Tesla started with 'supercars' for the rich. They made a splash by drag racing, and winning (conveniently not mentioning that if the two cars met on a real track, the Tesla would get its butt kicked).

Ultimately, I think we need to see another jump in battery tech before EVs will truly become mainstream. There has to be some kind of range/charge-time advance before they overcome the hurdle of being the extra city-car for a heck of a lot of people.

See b-dogg's reply, then consider what's going to happen when ICE makers need to truly make the switch. Forget about Tesla and think about what happens when an ICE maker's production level is 10% EV and 90% ICE. They'll have gone from 0% EV to 10% because there will be consumer demand, meaning that consumers recognize that ICE is dead technology. How are they going to make a profit on the other 90% of their production? Answer: they're not going to.

There is nothing dead about ICE, aside from government regulation, and then possibly correspondingly, public opinion. The one thing Tesla did right was to start with the high end car to really show off the EV advantages (and try to diminish the disadvantages).

No doubt, the eventual mainstream EV is going to be quicker, more efficient, more controllable (i.e.: much better traction control, braking, dynamics control, etc.), and even more reliable and easily serviced (lower cost to service). When that stuff gets mature AND the costs come down within reason, no one will have to push the transition, the consumers will drive it (pardon the pun).

I guess what I'm missing is where the traditional manufacturers will have any bigger problem shifting, than a startup like Tesla has in scaling? The traditional makers are just responding to market demand. As the market demands EVs and they come-of-age, more of their product lines will be EVs.

There isn't anything especially tricky about making an EV. It's fairly simple stuff... some might argue more simple than a traditional ICE. Like I mentioned above, hobbyists were building them before Tesla was even a thought in Elon's mind. The technology just wasn't there to make the realistic as a consumer product.

Yeah, and that "internet" thing is just a fad. The fact is that self-driving tech isn't even in its infancy yet and people are already relying on it as if it were mature even though they shouldn't.

This isn't about whether people want it or adoption problems. I'm sure if an AI car were to work well, you're right, the vast majority of the population would 'sign up.'

The problem is that we're getting near a gap (i.e.: first 80% is easy, last 20% is the gotcha) that I don't personally think is going to be traversed. AI advocates think the problem is just with sensor quality and scaling up the performance. I think it is a problem of kind/category.
 
The problem is that we're getting near a gap (i.e.: first 80% is easy, last 20% is the gotcha) that I don't personally think is going to be traversed. AI advocates think the problem is just with sensor quality and scaling up the performance. I think it is a problem of kind/category.
Your entire response is nonsense.

1) Tesla's difficultly scaling is pretty much over at this point. From here on, they're just going to use some of the profits from selling Model 3 (6,000+ per week X ~$45,000 ASP = $270 Million per week in revenue, 25% profit means ~$67 million per week in PROFIT) to build the Model Y, Semi, Roadster, and expand their storage and solar production. That's not a problem at all, especially when compared to any ICE maker that doesn't produce its own batteries, so can't make money on the EV, and is facing a dramatic decline in ICE sales.

2) ICE is now, and always has been a dead-end technology since the fuel is finite. The idea that government regulation is propping up EVs over ICE is ridiculous. We can only dream of EV technology getting as much as 10% of the subsides that Big Oil gobbles up each year.

3) Consumers cannot drive anything if they're not given the choice. That's the point of government involvement, as it was with the internet, aviation, television, radio. No government investment means it never gets started, because Business is too focused on this quarter to see anything in the long term.

4) AI does not ever have to be 100% perfect for self driving to be a reality. It only needs to be better than humans, and that is a very low bar. Humans are terrible drivers.
[doublepost=1535220920][/doublepost]One more thing about government involvement or lack thereof: By not requiring ICE makers or the oil industry to pay for the health damages that their exhausts cause the government has effectively subsidized ICE for over a hundred years. If we took 1% of that money and applied it to EV production, they could give them away and still make a profit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: b-dogg
Your entire response is nonsense.

1) Tesla's difficultly scaling is pretty much over at this point. From here on, they're just going to use some of the profits from selling Model 3 (6,000+ per week X ~$45,000 ASP = $270 Million per week in revenue, 25% profit means ~$67 million per week in PROFIT) to build the Model Y, Semi, Roadster, and expand their storage and solar production. That's not a problem at all, especially when compared to any ICE maker that doesn't produce its own batteries, so can't make money on the EV, and is facing a dramatic decline in ICE sales.

2) ICE is now, and always has been a dead-end technology since the fuel is finite. The idea that government regulation is propping up EVs over ICE is ridiculous. We can only dream of EV technology getting as much as 10% of the subsides that Big Oil gobbles up each year.

3) Consumers cannot drive anything if they're not given the choice. That's the point of government involvement, as it was with the internet, aviation, television, radio. No government investment means it never gets started, because Business is too focused on this quarter to see anything in the long term.

4) AI does not ever have to be 100% perfect for self driving to be a reality. It only needs to be better than humans, and that is a very low bar. Humans are terrible drivers.

I think some issues are being mixed here (from what I wrote).... but here goes:

re: 1 - I'm not just talking about the ability to crank the cars out, but also things like service & repair, keeping the quality up with truly mass production, etc. These are things that are already challenging Tesla, and the Model 3 isn't going to help that. They are going from a boutique manufacturer to more mass market.

re: 2 - Well, of course it is finite... but so is the existence of humanity. If we wanted to keep using ICE tech, we're a long, long way off from the quantity of resources being the hurdle. In that context, when I talk about government regulation, I mean the governments forcing a switch to EV and/or talking the consumer into switching, artificially creating the demand to switch.

Once EVs are truly better, why wouldn't we want to switch? My gosh, aside from maybe some nostalgia around the sound of a well tuned ICE, I can imagine an EV being better in nearly every other way. Once we get there, even hard-core auto enthusiasts will want to switch. We just aren't there yet.

And, for the average consumer... unless artificial obsolescence or failure is built in, an EV should be more reliable and lower in maintenance costs. What's not to like?

So, in that sense, sure... dead end. But, most of the reasons I'm seeing listed are artificial (i.e.: save the planet, limited supplies of fuel, etc.). When the reasons are real, no one will need to push the switch.

(Also, as in point 3 below, I don't think I was talking about government subsidies propping up either industry.)

re: 3 - I'm not understanding here. Maybe we cross communicated. I don't think I was talking about government subsidy. I meant, as above, once EVs are desirable by consumers, the switch will happen on it's own. Customers didn't have the choice before, as the technology wasn't there, so the choices sucked. Sure, some government investment in a new technology it wants to promote helps.

re: 4 - No, that's where you're mistaken. Where do you get that idea? Sure, some humans are pretty poor drivers, but there are some easy solutions to that if safety were truly what was driving this. What is driving it is $$$, mainly from taxi, transport, services, etc.

The truth is, we simply have no idea whether AI tech is better than human drivers yet (statistically)... even given the current state of human drivers, with all their issues (that cause most of the accidents). And, AI has been operating under the most ideal conditions, too (whereas humans operate in all kinds of crazy conditions).

Sensors and AI are going to be better at some aspects of driving. I'm more an advocate of assistive technologies. I think AI (while a real, useful thing) is a misapplication in this sense, and far more hype than reality. This current push is quite dangerous... and many lives are going to be lost if they keep pushing for ulterior motives.
 
  • Like
Reactions: arkitect
I used Maps for a 4000km road trip in France and Spain. They have been flawless.

Siri, like all other digital assistants, is in its infancy.

In Japan Apple Maps is completely useless, at least if your are not driving a car. In Nara Apple told me to walk 15 km to my hotel. In reality, it was just about 400 m along the main road from the station.

Google Maps hardly ever let me down.
 
  • Like
Reactions: arkitect
In Japan Apple Maps is completely useless, at least if your are not driving a car. In Nara Apple told me to walk 15 km to my hotel. In reality, it was just about 400 m along the main road from the station.

Google Maps hardly ever let me down.

Yeah, its a data issue and quite dependent on where you live. There are places I can go less than 10 km from me that aren't even on Apple Maps that are on Google.
 
I think some issues are being mixed here (from what I wrote).... but here goes:
Now you're just moving the goal posts.
1) EVs have around 20 moving parts vs about 2,000 parts in ICE. Service is not an issue, as throwing a few million (a portion of a week's profits) at it will easily get Tesla to where they need to be to service the Model 3.

2) Yes, we can keep ICE going for a long time provided we're willing to continue heavily subsidizing ICE and Oil. Is that what you're advocating? You seemed to imply that you didn't like government getting involved. Maybe I misinterpreted.

3) What you're not getting here is that Tesla is the only option at this point because the others are making deliberately hobbled EVs to satisfy the minimum requirements in compliance states. The strategy is to make a terrible car and then claim that its low sales are proof that the demand isn't there. Why? Because it's easier to make money by selling a $20K ICE car that will cost $2K per year in maintenance (plus another $1K in fuel) than it is to sell a $30K EV and make basically nothing on maintenance. That's not a conspiracy theory. That's just the reality of an economic system where quarterly profits are all that matters.

4) Some people??? There are around 40,000 automobile related fatalities every year in the U.S. alone! The fact is that when Tesla first turned on Autopilot their accident rate dropped by 40%. That's huge, especially when you consider that autopilot is only level 1. There are 5 levels achievable, and each will reduce the accident rate from the one before it.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: b-dogg
the others are making deliberately hobbled EVs to satisfy the minimum requirements in compliance states. The strategy is to make a terrible car and then claim that its low sales are proof that the demand isn't there. Why? Because it's easier to make money by selling a $20K ICE car that will cost $2K per year in maintenance (plus another $1K in fuel) than it is to sell a $30K EV and make basically nothing on maintenance. That's not a conspiracy theory. That's just the reality of an economic system where quarterly profits are all that matters.

In a nutshell - better than i could have put it!

With regards to "Ultimately, I think we need to see another jump in battery tech before EVs will truly become mainstream. There has to be some kind of range/charge-time advance before they overcome the hurdle of being the extra city-car for a heck of a lot of people." currently we have 300 / 220 miles on model 3. How often do you drive that one one charge without stopping?! Superchargers can refuel 60-70% within 30-40mins!

With regards to LiIon batteries. There are theorists out there that say big oil sat on vital battery patents throughout the 70's-90's to protect their interests. These guys make trillions a year and don't play fair. It's not a stretch to see them doing this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cwt2nospam
With regards to "Ultimately, I think we need to see another jump in battery tech before EVs will truly become mainstream. There has to be some kind of range/charge-time advance before they overcome the hurdle of being the extra city-car for a heck of a lot of people." currently we have 300 / 220 miles on model 3. How often do you drive that one one charge without stopping?! Superchargers can refuel 60-70% within 30-40mins!
Yes, that was a particularly egregious statement that I should have called out.

The fact is, while battery technology will continue to improve, it's already good enough to replace ICE. All that's needed is enough scale to reduce cost. It's unfortunate that Tesla is the only one doing the necessary work to achieve it.
 
And yet Apple Maps and Siri are almost unusable. Ironically both of them are integral to autonomous driving. And they almost a decade old.

Sorry I’m not inspired with confidence with this story.
Reason why Apple cash + Tesla know how would make a perfect combination.
 
1) EVs have around 20 moving parts vs about 2,000 parts in ICE. Service is not an issue, as throwing a few million (a portion of a week's profits) at it will easily get Tesla to where they need to be to service the Model 3.

Then why is Tesla having problems in that area? For example, Consumer Reports seems to have downgraded Tesla in terms of reliability and how they handle service as the numbers have grown. It isn't an issue that can't be addressed, but Tesla has work to do.

Yes, I agree the mechanical complexity of an EV goes down, but there are a ton of parts not related to the 'engine' that will still need service.

2) Yes, we can keep ICE going for a long time provided we're willing to continue heavily subsidizing ICE and Oil. Is that what you're advocating? You seemed to imply that you didn't like government getting involved. Maybe I misinterpreted.

Yeah, I keep hearing that, but I wonder about the numbers, or how current that argument is. Also, I wonder what is included in coming to those conclusions (i.e.: government support and money? politics and wars? etc.)

Here's what I found in a quick Google search...

One study... fossil fuels receive 0.8 US cents per kWh of energy
renewable energy (excluding hydroelectricity) receives 5.0 cents / kWh and bio-fuels receive 5.1 cents / kWh in subsidies

or

Congressional Budget Office:
Renewable energy: $7.3 billion (45 percent)
Fossil fuels: $3.2 billion (20 percent)

But subsidies aside, from my understanding, we've discovered massive new sources. It's more a matter of politics about when/if they get tapped, and many aren't in the USA (so, it becomes a trade issue).

Again, I'm not stuck on fossil fuels, but where does the electricity come from? Until we solve that problem, most of it comes from the fossil fuels anyway.

3) What you're not getting here is that Tesla is the only option at this point because the others are making deliberately hobbled EVs to satisfy the minimum requirements in compliance states. The strategy is to make a terrible car and then claim that its low sales are proof that the demand isn't there. Why? Because it's easier to make money by selling a $20K ICE car that will cost $2K per year in maintenance (plus another $1K in fuel) than it is to sell a $30K EV and make basically nothing on maintenance. That's not a conspiracy theory. That's just the reality of an economic system where quarterly profits are all that matters.

That's an interesting theory. They must all be hating life, having to have improved their overall reliability so much in the last few decades, huh? They are literally putting themselves out of business then by making better products.

They probably don't have the drive (at least until recently) that Tesla did/does around EVs, but I doubt they are too deliberately hobbling their programs at this point.

4) Some people??? There are around 40,000 automobile related fatalities every year in the U.S. alone! The fact is that when Tesla first turned on Autopilot their accident rate dropped by 40%. That's huge, especially when you consider that autopilot is only level 1. There are 5 levels achievable, and each will reduce the accident rate from the one before it.

Well, yes... but there is a heck of a lot of driving being done, too... in all kinds of conditions and situations. Plus, people are allowed to drive with hardly any initial training and pretty much zero refresher training, little skill development, and super low bar toward keeping that privilege. That's not even counting the super-low penalties on things like DUI or other kinds of impaired driving (which cause most of the accidents).

If safety were really the concern, there is a ton we could do to cut those fatalities to a fraction... no AI necessary.

But even so, that's like 1 fatality in 100 million miles driven. AI cars haven't driven enough miles to have a clue at how they compare, and we're already up to a half-dozen AI-related fatalities or so.

What makes you think we'll get to level 5? Level 1 (isn't it 2?) isn't working that well. And, already, people are starting to actually trust it, which shows they aren't much more bright about this than they are about things like texting and DUI.

currently we have 300 / 220 miles on model 3. How often do you drive that one one charge without stopping?! Superchargers can refuel 60-70% within 30-40mins!

That's nice, except that is the low end of ICE and they can refuel in just a couple minutes. And, it really depends on where you live and how you drive. I used to drive almost daily in situations where that wouldn't have worked. And, I used to live in a place where you'd never reach the next charging station.

But, as mentioned above... what good is transitioning to electricity - in terms of saving the planet - if the electricity comes from fossil fuels? In other words, what is the urgency to get to EV? Is it just so people can put those 'zero emissions' bumper stickers on and feel wrongly better about themselves? Most people don't have a solar farm handy to charge their cars. And, how much resources and environmental damage does producing batteries and solar cells take/create? (Just asking... I've never seen a full analysis. Creating the glass, silicon, etc. of solar cells had to take a good amount of energy in the first place. Batteries take some nasty mining, etc. Is this really a net gain, or is it more like the VW clean diesel campaign?)

I'm interested in EVs for other reasons. I just think they will perform better and be more reliable. And, then maybe someday, we'll also produce the energy in more clean ways.

The fact is, while battery technology will continue to improve, it's already good enough to replace ICE. All that's needed is enough scale to reduce cost. It's unfortunate that Tesla is the only one doing the necessary work to achieve it.

Yes, maybe it is finally approaching that point. But, that has only been the case for the last decade or less.
 
Then why is Tesla having problems in that area? For example, Consumer Reports seems to have downgraded Tesla in terms of reliability and how they handle service as the numbers have grown. It isn't an issue that can't be addressed, but Tesla has work to do.
Wow. It's like you're determined to misunderstand. Kind of like someone whose income depends on them not understanding.

1) GM's Bolt (the pure EV) is their MOST RELIABLE car. Why? Because it's an EV. Tesla is still young, and they haven't yet produced their first hundred thousand Model 3s, so service is still a low priority. It just isn't needed yet.

2) That's complete BS. First thing that came up on my search for "oil industry tax subsidies"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies
The three largest fossil fuel subsidies were:
  1. Foreign tax credit ($15.3 billion)
  2. Credit for production of non-conventional fuels ($14.1 billion)
  3. Oil and Gas exploration and development expense ($7.1 billion)
The three largest renewable fuel subsidies were:
  1. Alcohol Credit for Fuel Excise Tax ($11.6 billion)
  2. Renewable Electricity Production Credit ($5.2 billion)
  3. Corn-Based Ethanol ($5.0 billion)
Notice the "Renewable Electricity Production Credit is less than 9% of the total. Also note that this is for one year. Tesla has spent somewhere around $10 Billion on R&D in their entire existence, and almost all of that money came from investors and bonds, so as I said earlier, the oil industry is heavily subsidized compared to Tesla or EV production in general.

3) They do appear to hate life, having to sell us the same crap every year while claiming that it's "re-designed" or "revolutionary". It must be terrible to work for BMW and try to claim to be "the ultimate driving machine" while knowing that every Tesla made is at least an order of magnitude better. As for deliberately hobbling their EVs, Tesla proved early on that active battery management is critical to prolong battery life, yet Nissan has chosen not to add it to the Leaf for the last 8 years. Do you think they just didn't know about battery management? Which is it? Are they deliberately hobbling the Leaf, or are they completely incompetent?

4) A 40% reduction in accidents and you claim it's not working well? What's wrong with you? I think we'll get to level 5 because I trust the engineers at Tesla, Apple, Google, and even GM, BMW, Mercedes, etc., far more than I trust your opinion.

5) You're showing your desperation by claiming that charging time is an issue. The fact is that the average Tesla owner charges at home (taking less than 10 seconds of their time) more than 90% of the time. On the "Like Tesla" youtube channel they have a video (if I find it I'll post the link for those interested) where they show that the average ICE owner spends far more time at the pump over a year than they do at a charging station.

6) Holy crap! How can you claim to be interested in EVs and NOT KNOW that EVs are far cleaner than ICE even if 100% of their electricity comes from coal??? Then, how can you not know that electricity produced by coal is constantly dwindling as more natural gas, solar and wind comes on line? Currently, it's less than a third of all production:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

7) GM didn't just stop making the EV1. They spent the money to track them all down and have them all crushed, despite the fact that the people who had them wanted to buy them and they could have spun off a company to handle that and dumped the cost on that company. There's only one reason to choose crushing them, and that is that the technology was a serious threat to GM's core business: servicing problematic ICE. So the tech has been here for nearly 3 decades, not 1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
 
Last edited:
So how do you explain Tesla being "tops in buyer satisfaction"?
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-customer-satisfaction-20171221-story.html
And if you've got an explanation for that, how about this?
https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2017/8...0k-miles-with-less-than-11k-maintenance-costs

Honestly, I'm wondering if your income depends on oil.

No one readily admits to being a sucker, especially with all of the hype of Tesla. My son wants one, his next door neighbor has one, and its almost like a religion to them. They just dismiss any problems out of hand, unlike any other product they buy. Its surrealistic. They just want to believe. They have to believe.
 
No one readily admits to being a sucker, especially with all of the hype of Tesla. My son wants one, his next door neighbor has one, and its almost like a religion to them. They just dismiss any problems out of hand, unlike any other product they buy. Its surrealistic. They just want to believe. They have to believe.
Sure. They should believe you, because you know the truth! :confused:

Pay no attention to all those happy customers, especially all those people bragging about spending nothing on maintenance. Pay no attention to documented 3 cents per mile maintenance costs (vs 52.5 cents allowed deduction because ICE is so expensive) after hundreds of thousands of miles traveled. None of that matters, because some guy on the internet claims that Tesla's are bad. Forget that he offers no evidence to contradict the hundreds of thousands of happy customers. With a name like nt5672, you've just got to trust him! :rolleyes:
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.