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Wait, wut? Their trackpad isn't unique? Their keyboards? The thin construction? The aluminum body? The integrated, long batteries? The reliability? I think everything I listed is unique, and I haven't even gotten into their handheld devices (iPhone, iPad, iPod).

When people make ridiculous claims like "NOTHING in Apple's entire hardware portfolio is unique" or "the iPad is just a big iPod touch" or "Apple isn't innovative," you are supposed to ignore any of the facts that contradict their claim. Because anything that doesn't support their claim isn't really significant.

:D
 
Make no mistake, Apple is a hardware company. They sell hardware. That's how they make (almost) all of their money. But the reason they sell tons of hardware is because the software on the platform is so tightly integrated and superior. Oh, and the hardware is pretty good and innovative as well.

The whole business model is driven by selling lots and lots of hardware. It isn't driven by selling $29 copies of Leopard and $49 copies of iLife. Even with a margin of 100% on those packages, they make the real money on 25%+ margins of $1000+ Macs, $600 iphones and ipads, and various priced iPods.

The crossover product might be the AppleTV, but even that integrates with a desktop and is - at some level - designed to drive sales of other products within the iTunes ecosystem. I can't imagine they make a lot of money off the iTunes Store (music and video part) once the vendors get their cut and Apple takes their costs for operating costs. There isn't much room for profit. No, it is the hardware.
 
Wait, wut? Their trackpad isn't unique? Their keyboards? The thin construction? The aluminum body? The integrated, long batteries? The reliability? I think everything I listed is unique, and I haven't even gotten into their handheld devices (iPhone, iPad, iPod).

Nope, every single thing you listed has either been brought to market before Apple, or was rapidly matched or exceeded by competing hardware. Sony, not Apple makes the thinnest notebooks. You might like the aesthetics better for Apple, but that's a preference, not a competitive engineering advantage. Too many people confuse the too. Aluminum?? Are you serious. I can show you machines from the 80's built in Aluminum. Nothing new or unique there. That was simply a design decision. There is NOTHING about that that is a sustainable differentiator. Ever computer manufactures could ship aluminum bodies next month if they wanted too. Batteries? You think they invented Lithium Ion? Are you serious. The entire industry has been using the exact same tech forever. You're seriously kidding yourself if you think they have a secret sauce in their batteries.

But all that is beside the point. The founder of the company says they are a software company. And says it repeatedly. I just linked a single quote.
 
Make no mistake, Apple is a hardware company. They sell hardware. That's how they make (almost) all of their money. But the reason they sell tons of hardware is because the software on the platform is so tightly integrated and superior. Oh, and the hardware is pretty good and innovative as well.

The whole business model is driven by selling lots and lots of hardware. It isn't driven by selling $29 copies of Leopard and $49 copies of iLife. Even with a margin of 100% on those packages, they make the real money on 25%+ margins of $1000+ Macs, $600 iphones and ipads, and various priced iPods.

The crossover product might be the AppleTV, but even that integrates with a desktop and is - at some level - designed to drive sales of other products within the iTunes ecosystem. I can't imagine they make a lot of money off the iTunes Store (music and video part) once the vendors get their cut and Apple takes their costs for operating costs. There isn't much room for profit. No, it is the hardware.

Nope. Wrong again. They couldn't sell hardware at the prices they charge without their software. Ergo they are a SOFTWARE company. There are a lot of people on this board that haven't run businesses. You are in the business of selling what the majority of people pay you money for. People don't buy "hardware" when they buy a Mac, iPhone or iPad. They buy an integrated device. The reason they choose the Apple branded device over equivalent devices is the software. Take OS X out of the equation and Apple will still sell a few Macbooks to people that buy solely for aesthetic and then install Windows 7, but they would be a niche vendor that nobody had heard of because they cost wouldn't be justified. OS X is what justifies the premium for all that commodity hardware under the pretty aluminum skin. Same for iPhone, iPod, iPad, etc. etc.

Apple wasn't first with ANY of that hardware. They have been tablets for ever, but the software sucked. Same with phones (WinMobile, Palm) and iPods.
 
Android and WindowsP can be licensed to anyone who makes the hardware, lots of hardware versions to choose from, and highly competitive market.

Unlike open cloneing, what I suggest is selling it to companies that want to build niche products, such as kiosks, industrial (as in super rugged), water proof, and such, markets Apple would not cater to.

Leave that to Google and Microsoft, Apple never did it with Mac OS X and will never do it with iOS
 
Nope, every single thing you listed has either been brought to market before Apple, or was rapidly matched or exceeded by competing hardware. Sony, not Apple makes the thinnest notebooks. You might like the aesthetics better for Apple, but that's a preference, not a competitive engineering advantage. Too many people confuse the too. Aluminum?? Are you serious. I can show you machines from the 80's built in Aluminum. Nothing new or unique there. That was simply a design decision. There is NOTHING about that that is a sustainable differentiator.

Aluminum Unibody construction which apart from the Auto industry I don't remember being in consumer computing devices.

Batteries? You think they invented Lithium Ion? Are you serious. The entire industry has been using the exact same tech forever. You're seriously kidding yourself if you think they have a secret sauce in their batteries.

Maybe Apple grinds up lawn gnomes or something because the battery life on Apple products tend to be toward the top of the heap in product surveys.

That's just me.

As to the question, I vote for no. I distrust clones. Did you see what those bastards did after getting Order 66? :eek:
 
Nope. Wrong again. They couldn't sell hardware at the prices they charge without their software. Ergo they are a SOFTWARE company. There are a lot of people on this board that haven't run businesses. You are in the business of selling what the majority of people pay you money for. People don't buy "hardware" when they buy a Mac, iPhone or iPad. They buy an integrated device. The reason they choose the Apple branded device over equivalent devices is the software. Take OS X out of the equation and Apple will still sell a few Macbooks to people that buy solely for aesthetic and then install Windows 7, but they would be a niche vendor that nobody had heard of because they cost wouldn't be justified. OS X is what justifies the premium for all that commodity hardware under the pretty aluminum skin. Same for iPhone, iPod, iPad, etc. etc.

Apple wasn't first with ANY of that hardware. They have been tablets for ever, but the software sucked. Same with phones (WinMobile, Palm) and iPods.

I think we are in violent agreement. The point I was making was that they make their profit and quantity of sales on the hardware. But yes, the software drives the hardware sales and the integrated ecosphere is what people are buying. I agree with you 100%. People wouldn't buy Apple hardware (or anywhere near as much) if it weren't for the software and the integration of other pieces.
 
Maybe Apple grinds up lawn gnomes or something because the battery life on Apple products tend to be toward the top of the heap in product surveys.

The battery life is the result of systems engineering. They select the most energy efficient commodity parts and designs that meet a given price point, and then optimize the hell out of it with software. Most commodity hardware and reference designs come with reference software. (Typically in the form of BIOS, firmware, or device drivers). This software is intended to be a starting point. But most the other vendors compete on price and therefore can't afford to invest the time and energy into truly optimizing the device level software. So they ship some minimally modified version of the reference software, which sucks from a power management standpoint. Apple spends a lot of time tweaking things and teasing out milliwatts of power saving. Apples focus and limited array of supported hardware also enables them to focus the appropriate resources on hardware. Apples uses about 3 total Wifi chips in their current hardware lineup. Compare that with Dell that might use 3 different chips in a given month for a given laptop depending on which vendor is willing shave 30 cents a chip off the price that week.
 
The battery life is the result of systems engineering. They select the most energy efficient commodity parts and designs that meet a given price point, and then optimize the hell out of it with software. Most commodity hardware and reference designs come with reference software. (Typically in the form of BIOS, firmware, or device drivers). This software is intended to be a starting point. But most the other vendors compete on price and therefore can't afford to invest the time and energy into truly optimizing the device level software. So they ship some minimally modified version of the reference software, which sucks from a power management standpoint. Apple spends a lot of time tweaking things and teasing out milliwatts of power saving. Apples focus and limited array of supported hardware also enables them to focus the appropriate resources on hardware. Apples uses about 3 total Wifi chips in their current hardware lineup. Compare that with Dell that might use 3 different chips in a given month for a given laptop depending on which vendor is willing shave 30 cents a chip off the price that week.

You're still missing the point - yes, everybody has access to the same hardware components that Apple does but it's the way that Apple integrates them into their products that distinguishes them.

By your definition Apple never innovated in their history because any other manufacturer could have done the same thing with technology that existed at the time. So by your estimation a Mercedes and a Scion are essentially the same car.
 
I think we are in violent agreement. The point I was making was that they make their profit and quantity of sales on the hardware. But yes, the software drives the hardware sales and the integrated ecosphere is what people are buying. I agree with you 100%. People wouldn't buy Apple hardware (or anywhere near as much) if it weren't for the software and the integration of other pieces.

+1. I don't think you'd find many people here who would argue against the point that Apple software drives their hardware sales. And as I said before, I believe that is what Jobs was referencing when he characterized Apple as a software company. But that doesn't change the fact that Apple derives a majority of its profit from hardware sales. And in relation to the topic of this thread, because Apple gets profit from selling hardware, it'll be stupid to license out its OS to other hardware makers and undercut their own profit. So it doesn't matter (in terms of the thead topic) whether we think of Apple as a software or hardware company, in either case, they shouldn't license their OS.
 
They already did this, it didn't work out.

That way you cannot ensure proper integration between software and hardware.

A quote Steve Jobs brought to the audience back in 2007 when Apple introduced the iPhone is really relevant.
Alan Kay said:
People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware.


And that is what Apple will do. This is about control and you only need one rotten apple to infect the idea and power of the brand.


If you're referring to the clones, they did nothing to hurt Apple. Apple was already tanking, they couldn't fulfill orders, they had no roadmap to speak off, the management system was a joke, they raised the cost of their computers which pushed them into a niche and made them lose even more marketshare, they didn't advertise, they didn't have any worthwhile outlet to sell their machines. In fact there are 100's of reasons, but the clones are not one of them.

In the year of 1995, Apple sold 4.5 million Macs, the clones sold a combined total of 200,000. Source.

The clones were a last minute attempt to rescue Apple. That plane was already crashing and burning.

As for the Alan Kay quote, that quote is always used out of context even by Jobs. Alan Kay did not mean that in terms of software being completely limited to its hardware. Alan Kay went on to say "Now that you're selling Macintosh, you're a software company, not a hardware company. Because the thing that makes the Macintosh different is nothing in the hardware, it's in that ROM. What you're selling is communication services between human beings. When you're in the software business you have to run on every platform. So you must put the Mac operating system on the PC, and the Sun workstation, and everything else."

Apple almost went belly up doing this with the OS for the desktops - won't happen again.
Absolutely not.

They did this many years ago and it nearly killed them. Apple's software is the mechanism that drives hardware sales. If apple licenses iOS, they'll lose out on hardware sales, pure and simple.

If the OP is still reading, GOD NO. Like others have said apple went down that road and it was not a good path for them.

Love, like or hate them ( seems to be either love or hate) they are at their best when they use hardware and software to move the buying public to the place they are already at.

Read above.
 
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You're still missing the point - yes, everybody has access to the same hardware components that Apple does but it's the way that Apple integrates them into their products that distinguishes them.

By your definition Apple never innovated in their history because any other manufacturer could have done the same thing with technology that existed at the time. So by your estimation a Mercedes and a Scion are essentially the same car.

No you're missing the point. That "integration" you are referring too has a name. It's called "SOFTWARE". Apple can't and don't make a better circuit board trace or PCI or Sata bus to connect 2 pieces of hardware. Nor do their hardware devices include magical pieces of hardware that are missing from other vendors. Apples hardware is different from other vendors in 2 distinct ways:

1) The visual aesthetic of their cases.
2) The physical assembly of the hardware pieces, which unsurprisingly is driven by 1.

Apple doesn't innovate in any meaningful way on the hardware front. Almost all of their hardware is purchased from 3rd parties. They don't make screens. They don't make batteries. They buy reference ARM designs for their chips on iOS devices or stock Intel chips for their Macs. (ARM doesn't manufacture chips, so EVERYONE buys reference ARM designs and has someone else physically manufacture them.) They buy hard drives from Seagate and Western Digital. They buy track pads from Synoptics. They buy memory from Samsung (among others). The unibody aluminum cases were not invented by Apple either. They took the exact same machining technology used in the manufacture of various Aircraft and Military equipment cases and applied it to manufacture a computer case. (You might make the argument that just doing that is innovative, and while novel, it didn't require the production of any new intellectual property.) They buy Wifi chips. And on and on and on. So NO. Apple doesn't invent much (if any) hardware technology. They buy and assembly almost all of their technology, just like all computer and device manufactures today. They combine it with truly unique software (mostly unique from a UX, not functional perspective) and some unique process innovations. (eq application of Aircraft milling to cases).

As for your car analogy, that is also fatally flawed on 2 grounds. First Scion and Mercedes are both cars. And they both could largely build the same car. Mercedes differentiates their "hardware" in the quality of the components they choose. (eq Better engines, better finish materials, larger brakes, wheels, etc.) And secondly, Mercedes has in fact invented new "hardware" over the years. They've invented various safety systems, for example anti-lock brakes.

Apple pre-Steve Jobs act 2 was much close to a true hardware company in that they designed and manufactured their hardware. In Jobs act 2, Apple could no longer afford to do that, so Apple turned first to Motorola, then IBM, and now Intel (and ARM) to source it's parts and reference designs, while they focused on software, aesthetics, UX, marketing, and sales.
 
Nope, every single thing you listed has either been brought to market before Apple, or was rapidly matched or exceeded by competing hardware. Sony, not Apple makes the thinnest notebooks. You might like the aesthetics better for Apple, but that's a preference, not a competitive engineering advantage. Too many people confuse the too. Aluminum?? Are you serious. I can show you machines from the 80's built in Aluminum. Nothing new or unique there. That was simply a design decision. There is NOTHING about that that is a sustainable differentiator. Ever computer manufactures could ship aluminum bodies next month if they wanted too. Batteries? You think they invented Lithium Ion? Are you serious. The entire industry has been using the exact same tech forever. You're seriously kidding yourself if you think they have a secret sauce in their batteries.

Despite your claims, industrial design isn't irrelevant to a laptop or any other portable. And it's arguably as important on desktops, depending on your space concerns.

But the simple way to refute your claim is that Apple has hundreds of hardware related patents. Feel free to look them up.

http://www.google.com/patents

An easy example would be the Magsafe connector.

But all that is beside the point. The founder of the company says they are a software company. And says it repeatedly. I just linked a single quote.

Talk about being beside the point. The founder of the company has also decided not to allow cloning of iOS to 3rd parties. Which would be the whole point of this thread.

Apple sees themselves as a software company. They also see themselves as a hardware company. "We build the whole widget." -Steve Jobs

Software is their differentiator. They make their money selling hardware. It's not really a controversial claim.
 
Despite your claims, industrial design isn't irrelevant to a laptop or any other portable. And it's arguably as important on desktops, depending on your space concerns.

Nice attempt to put words in my mouth. I never said industrial design wasn't import. In fact I've said it's one of the ways Apple innovates. Though I've used the non-technical word "aesthetic" to describe it.

But the simple way to refute your claim is that Apple has hundreds of hardware related patents. Feel free to look them up.

http://www.google.com/patents

I was waiting for this canard. As a holder of 2 patents, I can tell you that this is probably the worst measure of innovation you could possibly pick. All you have to do is write a document, file the paperwork, and pay the fee. The patent "examination" process is so broken it's laughable. I actually hold a patent for all rules based systems involving XML. Filed originally in 1999, granted and finalized in 2002. Sorry you lose here. As infinite patent trolls have proven, patents are not a valid measure of innovation. Their a valid measure of ability to manipulate a broken bureaucratic system.

An easy example would be the Magsafe connector.

I'll give you this. This is hardware innovation. Not sure how many macbooks they sell for this feature though. I certainly love it.

Talk about being beside the point. The founder of the company has also decided not to allow cloning of iOS to 3rd parties. Which would be the whole point of this thread.

You know you've lost an argument when you decide that it wasn't the argument you were having anyway. Yes it was off topic, but more posts in this thread are devoted to this topic than the question of cloning iOS.

Apple sees themselves as a software company. They also see themselves as a hardware company. "We build the whole widget." -Steve Jobs

They certainly "build" as in "assemble" the widgets. But they don't innovate any of the core hardware (mag safe is all thats been identified in this thread) in their products. Which was what my entire response was about.

Software is their differentiator. They make their money selling hardware. It's not really a controversial claim.

Perhaps not to you, but quite a few others on this thread seemed to disagree with that statement. Obviously we're in agreement on this point.
 
Nice attempt to put words in my mouth. I never said industrial design wasn't import. In fact I've said it's one of the ways Apple innovates. Though I've used the non-technical word "aesthetic" to describe it.

You put the words there that I am refuting. You said: "NOTHING in Apple's entire hardware portfolio is unique."

Apple's industrial design is unique. The magsafe connector is unique. The dock connector on the iOS devices is unique. The A4 chip in iOS devices is unique. Their multitouch trackpad is unique. Their keyboard is unique.

I was waiting for this canard. As a holder of 2 patents, I can tell you that this is probably the worst measure of innovation you could possibly pick. All you have to do is write a document, file the paperwork, and pay the fee. The patent "examination" process is so broken it's laughable. I actually hold a patent for all rules based systems involving XML. Filed originally in 1999, granted and finalized in 2002. Sorry you lose here. As infinite patent trolls have proven, patents are not a valid measure of innovation. Their a valid measure of ability to manipulate a broken bureaucratic system.

Except my point wasn't that they hold patents, but that some of those patents are implemented in their hardware, and only their hardware. Hence, the example of the Magsafe connector.

I'll give you this. This is hardware innovation. Not sure how many macbooks they sell for this feature though. I certainly love it.

You know you've lost an argument when you decide that it wasn't the argument you were having anyway. Yes it was off topic, but more posts in this thread are devoted to this topic than the question of cloning iOS.

How did I lose the argument, when you admitted that you were wrong?

They certainly "build" as in "assemble" the widgets. But they don't innovate any of the core hardware (mag safe is all thats been identified in this thread) in their products. Which was what my entire response was about.

Just the case, the CPU and some connectors. But that doesn't count because it doesn't fit your argument.

Perhaps not to you, but quite a few others on this thread seemed to disagree with that statement. Obviously we're in agreement on this point.

Who has disagreed with this point?
 
^^^^^^^

I am pretty sure that Steve/Apple have said in the past that they consider themselves a software company primarily.

And I would agree. I think more of Apples success is based on their wonderful software than the fact that their hardware looks pretty.

The primary reason for making their own hardware is to achieve perfect integration with the software.

I buy apple products because of their great software not because they look pretty. And I think most mac users I know would agree. (not that I don't also enjoy how nice the products are themselves)

$5 says you just looked at the pictures and didn't read the actual post, lol. The point was hardware and performance differences, it was choking Mac OS. They want to move to USB, but third party manufacturers are still using a variety of other ports, the computers were slower, etc. It's not just the look, (although that IS what pushed Apple back up, most non-technical PC users DO care what it looks like, it's marketing), but the performance of the third-party Macs were not great.
 
Nope, most hardware manufacturers have no idea what they are doing with software. Apple is unique that they make the hardware and software and that is the reason many people use them.

When you open your OS to 3rd parties you get the freak show which is the current Android tablet landscape.
 
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