Should computer companies pay compensation for poor software 'Upgrade' performance.

Discussion in 'Apple, Inc and Tech Industry' started by Dubdrifter, Feb 22, 2018.

  1. Dubdrifter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #1
    In any business, if you buy an expensive machine which has a certain spec/performance needed to perform efficiently in a competitive environment .... you purchase carefully and expect that manufacturer to uphold that 'trade description promise' for the reasonable lifetime of that product.

    If you are buying what you judge to be a Professional machine with connectivity/flexibility to do a whole range of tasks in a Professional environment .... you expect the manufacturer to maintain that machine to continue to work reasonably, as advertised, to the spec on the box .....

    In an engineering environment, where livelihoods and huge amounts of money are at stake ..... machine manufacturers always factor in that if they do a software so-called 'update/upgrade' to a piece of machinery on site which 'goes badly wrong'.... and proves to severely downgrade the machine's speed, efficiency, functionality and flexibility of function ......they would be expected to pay compensation to the customer .....

    Consequently, these machine manufacturers always design and test any software Upgrade thoroughly BEFORE releasing to the customer. If a mistake does slip through the net .... there is nearly ALWAYS an easy 'UNDO' option regressing machines back to the previous good commercial working state so that the customer's period of 'non-use/crippled use' is reduced to a minimum and normalcy resumed without fear of manufacture shut down, bankruptcy and especially mental breakdown on the customers part.

    No manufacturer outside computing would dream of providing a customer with software that crippled and regressed their machine's performance repeatedly ..... they wouldn't last 2 minutes in engineering or other industries ..... so why does the Computer Industry and people on here defending such practices as 'normal' .... think they are immune, firstly to criticism .... and secondly from legal redress/compensation for those churning out 'bad software product'.

    It's not as though they haven't got the money or resources to fix these problems ..... so besides laziness to product test thoroughly BEFORE release, and sheer greed .... what's their excuse?

    Running businesses just on what your accountants say is good for profit margins but will eventually bite Apple and Co. in the rear, if there is any justice in the world - [definitely in short supply at the moment].

    <<PERSONAL INTERLUDE:.......(SKIP IF TWITTER IS YOUR MEDIUM OF CHOICE)
    For many who got into Apple during the MacBook Pro/Snow Leopard era(like me) with all those connectivity options and a software that after a few initial 'glitches' ran like clockwork, this to many was Apple's heyday. Synchronicity of Hardware and Software flexibility and multi-functionality for Pro Users.

    Putting rosey tinted glasses aside, it was truly a Pro machine with loads of Pro App developers in Photography, Video, Music all enthusiastically churning out great products that turned MacBook Pro into the BEST computer laptop experience on the planet.

    Fast, efficient, easy to use, intuitive …… if you experienced those days …. you will know what I am talking about.
    That experience persuaded me to buy an iPhone(5) …. great camera/video/sound recording etc …. and an iPad Air ….. love 'em both.
    But, in so many ways, for so many people but a few diehards with their heads clearly in the sand ….it has pretty much been ALL downhill from those heady days in many people's eyes, who value a Pro machine …. re: software development.

    Not denying there have been exceptional isolated instances of software programming brilliance ..... GarageBand for instance has evolved across platforms with interesting mutations bringing music to a new audience and pushing things forward dynamically ..... but the experience for pro photographers and pro video makers recently has in 90% of cases been a course of bitterness, frustration, less flexibility and glitches.

    Apple have a bad habit 'destroying' competition by buying up truly great independently produced Pro Apps, then phasing them out and breaking their compatibility with a new OS …. then replacing them with glitchy half breed versions with a fraction of the functions ….. This hasn't won Apple ANY friends over the years .... and all but destroyed their Pro platform reputation - people are hanging in there ... on sufferance and out of loyalty, but the enthusiasm has definitely gone! :(
    We moaned about all these issues above years ago, me on this Forum a few years back ….. Apple are STILL doing it and ignoring customers rights and protests ….. surely Helpline workload is telling them there is a problem? Feedback? .... don't waste your time, Folks! They are overloaded with Feedback from 10 years ago ..... it's made no difference ..... :rolleyes:>>

    Many have spent a fortune on devices promising a certain spec/speed/functionality/flexibility to work with certain Professional Apps .... when software changes break working Apps essential for business without 'Warning'. Compensation needs to be paid .... because it shows insufficient testing has been done ..... negligence proven.

    Time the industry paid up for these damages. Customers complaints have been ignored for too long . Courts now need to focus Apple sharply on this. Like the banks, they can afford it.
    It's a disgrace that needs regulation and fines imposed on ALL computer companies that conduct business in this way ….. and the money needs to go to customers in compensation - NOT to the regulatory bodies imposing sanctions/fines.
    It's a cheek making customers pay for the privilege of being messed around, having their devices functionality broken each time. People's businesses and mental wellbeing are at stake here.

    IF APPLE HAVE GOT INVESTMENTS/ SHARES OR OWNERSHIP IN ANTI-DEPRESSANT PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES ….. I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT IT!! :p

    Businesses/people have made huge investments, they can't afford to 'jump ship' and chuck Apple stuff in the bin ….. and move back to Samsung+Microsoft.

    <<LIGHT-HEARTED INTERLUDE:It was either Apple devices across the board …… or the kids going to college ….. we all chose Apple ….. and now the kids are all working in McJobs and being abused by rogue bosses :) What do you tell kids like that, without prospects? ….. Apple p*ssed on their futures?>>

    I'm not expecting Apple to fund my kids through college, just Fast Track compensation to customers with broken machines/broken apps/under performing gadgets .... and especially businesses damaged by machine failure (software) to perform tasks promised ….. Businesses have gone bust and had their reputations destroyed for failing to deliver on time. This should all be covered under Trade Description Violations.

    Court action could either be through political lobbying(rarely works these days .... they are all sooo corrupted by Big Business.) probably best through crowd funded co-operatives to sue these super rich computer companies (that have made the customer really pay - with interest!) ..... for what is owing ..... long overdue.

    A few lawsuits should sort these cowboys out …..talk about Rogue Traders …… the whole computer industry should have the Book on Consumer Law thrown at them ….. the long heavy version. :D

    And another thing, sticking 'slippery eel' clauses on page 5,098 of the Terms/Conditions of Use Agreements is no excuse ..... no manufacturer should have a 'Get Out of Jail Free Card' for this! (don't look it up, McRumour 'lawyers', I made the number up ….. but guessing it wasn't mentioned on any page before most people went Zzzzzz reading the T&C! Which happens invariably around line 3). ;)

    Actually, maybe having a few TOP computer industry bosses 'banged up' in a tough Prison might be 'just what our specialist anti-depression doctors ordered' .... that would certainly focus the other managers in the computer industry to likewise 'step in line' and push through reforms.
    We are sick of being 'shafted' by these people ..... if they experienced what we have been feeling :confused:.... on the other side of the fence ..... maybe things will change.
    We have suffered for many years with this ..... so 1 year behind bars in a tough wing of a tough unit .... (no protection or privileges) ..... would really satisfy most of the many hundreds of thousands of people around the world with a valid complaint for compensation.
    I'm guessing there must be loads of 'psychos' who got locked up by the state for ramming their Macs down the throat of some poor Genius Bar advisor when the frustration became just to much! They would really be queueing up to meeting the Apple upper management bottom of the dark corridor of E Wing …. purely for an autograph of course. :p

    This Microsoft case, involving deliberate duplicity to trick people to Upgrade ..... shows courts are sympathetic to business losses in this area
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...out-10000-over-automatic-windows-10-download/

    People might say, "Chicken feed, what has that to do with Apple? No one forces people to upgrade?" ....... Many mechanisms force Apple users to so-called 'Upgrade' .... if you are naive to them, trawl this Forum ... I'm sure you will find examples. Duplicity to 'Up/Downgrade' riddles the computer industry .... because that's basically what it is these days, much of the time, a forlorn hope of better security and maybe a few bug fixes and dreams of that heyday App experience once again!
    Mostly people now just experience frustration. It's A Lottery.

    Business people are gamblers admittedly ….. but they know liability when they see it ….. and liability law.
     
  2. MacDawg macrumors Core

    MacDawg

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  3. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #3
    Thanks for that!:D Most succinct answer I've ever had on here.

    Afraid to spoil it by asking why? ….. [Er …. forget I said that, still savouring the moment:p]

    Just to show I do shorter work too …. yes, it was a bit long I guess ….. as long as it made you laff a bit …. job done!
     
  4. maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

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    #4
    Do you have a tl;dr version because I got lost what you're getting at. I support servers and I can say for a fact that updates to software can and do cause performance and stability to degrade, so your first statement.

    I'm confused by your title, "Should computer companies pay compensation for poor software 'Upgrade' performance", so you want computer makers to be responsible for the quality of the software that is run on the hardware? That is pay a fee or penalty for software that they have no control over? That makes no sense, especially in an enterprise setting where the complexity of the infrastructure is quite high.

    I will also say that with a few exceptions, both in the consumer world and the enterprise, machines are bought from one company (or a set of companies), and the software from others, i.e., Microsoft, Oracle, and etc.
     
  5. jeyf macrumors 65816

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    #5
    only if Volkswagen and Apple was better at cheating. A corporate mid life crisis is a rough time.
     
  6. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #6
    Computer makers should be responsible for the quality of the Microsoft/OS/iOS software they develop which is essential for the performance of their hardware machines (something they have full control over) and maintain it's ability to work with other major key producers

    It should be designed to work efficiently with their own essential software and existing Apps packaged with the product.(which they have full control over)


    And also should be expected to work well with the heavily Apple regulated Major Third Party Apps that boost the Brands status(varying levels of Apple control/liason).

    Failure on all these levels to give the customers machine performance comparable to that advertised, (if not debilitated by significant other factors) really should give grounds for compensation.

    Repeated Lack of Performance/Breach of Promise/Breach of Trade Description .... surely customers are covered by this. It also shows bad trading practice and negligence to maintain the spec of the machine.

    Maybe lawyers will give insite if liability exists.
     
  7. MacDawg macrumors Core

    MacDawg

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    #7
    Here is my attempt at a shorter version of the post:

    "My Mac/iPad/iPhone is getting long in the tooth and doesn't do as well with the new macOS/iOS/software as the new shiny hardware and Apple should compensate me"
     
  8. maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

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    #8
    It does, my iMac, MBP, iPhone all work extremely well.

    Well you can sue them if you feel so motivated.

    Hire one and find out.
     
  9. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #9
    The problem is this will lead to less end user control, if the update causes issues roll back.

    Until August of last year I used Mac's at work and they stayed on 10.6 because it was compatible with all my SW and peripherals so why upgrade?
     
  10. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #10
    Self Correction: ‘Insite’ should have been spelt ‘Insight’ - Apologies.(see original post quote)


    Is the “I’m alright Jack” attitude ..... so let’s not address the problem .... really the way we should be looking at this?
    The number of complaints on this forum related to poor programming/poor product testing before release suggests the computer industry should be serving it’s customers better.

    I personally don’t run a business that has been crippled temporarily at great cost, possibly had it’s reputation severely damaged failing to deliver to spec and on time ..... or been made bankrupted .... all due to bad computer industry software practices.

    If I had suffered any of that, I certainly would sue, and would expect the industry, if it has any integrity, to cough up without question where liability is proven. It has the huge profits to compensate losses and damage done, and should pay up without ‘bitchin’ and dragging it’s feet.

    The lack of acknowledgement on here and the Industry as a whole that this is ‘normal’ and not ‘their’ problem is a disgrace and sad to see .... probably symtomatic as to how bad the industry has become.
     
  11. millerj123 macrumors 65816

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    #11
    Ah, someone who doesn’t work in hardware/software. Why don’t you join them and fix it?
     
  12. maflynn, Feb 24, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018

    maflynn Moderator

    maflynn

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    #12
    Do you have any examples of companies failing due to hardware and software from one company causing the catstrophic failure? If not, then I think you're projecting your opinion as fact. We are talking about company that provides both hardware/software and you are making accusations that such a combination is rife with failure.

    I think you lack actual world experience, and are sounding off on how apple works in the consumer world, i.e., you want apple to pay because when you install the latest OS on an older product (Mac/iPad/iPhone) there is the potential for performance degredation.

    I work in IT and I can say that for the most part, we get our servers from one company, storage arrays from another the OS from another and the enterprise software from yet another. there are various compinations of that mixture, and such there's no way a server maker can guarantee absolutely certain performance metrics. Are you saying in this real world situation they should?

    If that's not the case, then it boils down companies that offer both hardware and software, and that is mostly Apple, and Oracle. We have Oracle Exadata server appliances that house the server, storage arrays and operating system, and Oracle database in one unitl. The OS is Linux but Oracle supplies this. Please provide examples of how Oracle, or other computer makers like Oracle are liable for poor performance.


    Or you don't fully understand the situation and think there's a problem in the computer industry but none exists.
     
  13. 960design macrumors 68030

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    #13
    The OP makes several good points. I remember back in college all software could be rewritten if a flaw was found to affect functionality. I cannot remember if it was a federal / state ( US ) law or just a EULA thing that may have been wiped under the rug. You could sue a company for the source code if their updates crashed or degraded performance without full disclosure of the upgrade doing so. It would be up to you to make the retro changes, but at least you could.
     
  14. dukebound85 macrumors P6

    dukebound85

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    #14
    Not quite form my understanding

    It's that should apple be forced to allow those to rollback to a point to allow for acceptable performance, which was paid for, if an upgrade makes machines perform subpar
     
  15. Tech198 macrumors G5

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    #15
    hah... i like this post better in all honesty... short and straight to the point. :)
     
  16. Dubdrifter, Feb 26, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018

    Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #16
    Thanks for that experience ..... hope MR members can research/recount for me specific companies made bankrupt or crippled by Apple making their Apps prematurely obsolete, or broken by a new Apple upgrade they couldn’t afford to ‘adapt’ to.
    Will research myself if I get time, but bit busy at mo. Imagine there are a few examples out there.(Personal stories welcome)


    Nor mine! ..... and yes, good point, ALL software developers should be FORCED BY LAW to offer EASY, painfree/hassle free ‘rollback’ options on any new development.

    We have a right to continue to enjoy the high performance version we paid big bucks for, they don’t have the right to throw a spanner in ‘our works’ and make that useless or even ‘obsolete’. :mad:


    ..... yes, if you prefer to avoid intellectually engaging with the subject on the card. :D
     
  17. Dubdrifter, Mar 1, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018

    Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #17
    Was hoping for a comment from an Expert Lawyer/someone with experience of Consumer Law who could say if Customers have rights to claim for damages in these circumstances .... even if they were forced to sign unreasonable Terms+Conditions in order to operate their expensive purchases.

    Thought there would be at least one legal expert around the world using Apple devices during a coffee break .... who would give us their quick opinion on this ..... er .....for free! …:D

    Free advice from a lawyer ..... Fl*pp .... Tell me I’m trying to create Utopia here! :rolleyes:

    (Difficult enough to get computer companies to raise their game)
     
  18. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #18
    Footnote: (Mmmm …. interesting ….. meanwhile, almost one week later ….)

    Looks like the Computer Industry doesn't seem to want to discuss this serious issue much on MacRumours Forum.

    Personally, I think their long suffering customers deserve better.
     
  19. TiggrToo macrumors 6502a

    TiggrToo

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    #19
    So, if I get you now, you already have an agenda ("I feel Apple is evil") and have already come to a conclusion ("Apple is evil") but you don't want to personally do any research to confirm that conclusion, so if we could just do that for you then you'd be just A-OK a with that.

    That pretty much sum it up?

    No on all counts. All developers signed an agreement with Apple stating that they and they alone are responsible for their apps running on iOS. In addition if Apple changes (not a bug) something in an OS updates that 'breaks' an app, then the Developer is responsible for fixing it.

    And as for apps that Apple own then it's triple no - we ALL of us agree that all commercial vendors can do this when we agree to the EULA. But please, feel free to waste your money with a lawyer on this - I'm sure at $150 an hour they'd be more than happy to spend an entire afternoon explaining ask this to you.

    I appreciate that this totally destroys the entire premise of your post, but thems the breaks.
     
  20. aristobrat macrumors G5

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    #20
    IMO, the Time Machine feature Apple designed into OS X back in 10.4 or whenever makes it easy to rollback.

    Side note, companies that can’t afford downtime due to software upgrade issues typically have systems where they can test upgrades before deploying them throughout the company.
     
  21. TiggrToo macrumors 6502a

    TiggrToo

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    #21
    It's painfully apparent that you know absolutely nothing about either software development or the law.

    Never ceases to surprise me when folk who have no knowledge of experience in a subject offer up what they feel should be the new way.

    You ever stop to think that, aside from backups, quite often there is no easy method? Many times application updates require changes in file structures that, once committed, cannot be rolled back?

    No one forces you to take upgrades (even if nagged). How about a new law that states the users BY LAW have to start taking personal responsibility for thief own actions and stop trying to shift that onto others?

    Wow... Time to /ignore you I feel.
     
  22. chrono1081 macrumors 604

    chrono1081

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    #22
    This was my thought exactly. What the OP is asking is literally (not figuratively) impossible.

    There is no way to fully predict performance on any machine.
     
  23. millerj123 macrumors 65816

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    #23
    No, no, we’re all “haters” unwilling to have a “meaningful” “discussion”. “Sad”.
     
  24. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #24
    Suggest you read the OP again and get off your high horse ….. the oxygen starvation has obviously gone to your brain!
    I don't hate Apple in the least ….. firstly, my thread is a question so it's asking for advice from computer experts across the Industry, not just Apple, as to whether developers should be obligated to check their software and test it more thoroughly before OK'ing release to give their customers a better, more painfree experience ……. and secondly to ask consumer lawyers if unreasonable Terms & Conditions are being presented to customers that might prevent them getting compensation when their computers don't function to the manufacturer's spec promised.
    Simple as that …. I'm not an expert in any of this ….. that is why I started the thread ….. on behalf of all those who have a grievance in this area with the computer industry.
    I have made no mention I have a business that has gone bust because of this and my personal grievance over my i5 phone is certainly not serious to make me run to a lawyer …. so why suggest something so ridiculous?

    ….. When obscenely rich industries treat customers like sh*t ….. then we have a problem …. and that's when a nobody like me likes to start asking the questions that need answers.
    Are you sure you want to give this Industry a 'Get-out-of-Jail' Free Card?

    Thanks for your feedback on file structures once committed cannot be rolled back ….. that is helpful information …..

    Programmers used to design file structures that could easily be rolled back ….. what is wrong with the programmers or programme design that makes that impossible these days? …. I am interested in answers here.

    But comprehensive testing does go on before software release, doesn't it? Maybe customers deserve they do more ironing out of bugs before release?

    Hear, hear …. Miller ….. accountability seems to be something they think they can dodge by bitching loudly on minor points to avoid addressing the real issue ….. liability. (Am I allowed to write that word on this Forum …..not being a lawyer?)
     
  25. chrono1081 macrumors 604

    chrono1081

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    #25
    Yes but again, there is no way to guarantee performance and especially performance over time, there's just simply too many variables involved especially since consumers can put whatever they want on their computers and all kinds of things can be running in the background. There is also no such thing as bug free software. You make the best product possible with the time/budget given but it'll never be perfect, or future proof from technology changes.

    What the OP wants is compensation when old software stops working as well which isn't realistic at all. No one would create software if that was the case.
     

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31 February 22, 2018