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We all know Apple will remove being able to install apps away from the store, which for me kills the Mac.
No, we do not all “know” that. You think that despite everything Apple has said and all the evidence to the contrary.
The question is when will they do it? Probably only when they have fully established ARM Macs and phase the Intel ones out.
Or more likely never.
I have built a Windows PC (finally the 3080 took a long time to find) and I'm preparing for the full switch over myself.
Makes sense to do that in anticipation. Very logical.
I like Mac OS, I find it pain having to have both Mojave and Catalina... but I like the day to day use better than Windows.
Why do you have to have both, and why not Big Sur? When did you last buy a Macintosh? For what do you use your machines? What commercial software have you purchased on them?
However I won't be supporting it when they do stop installs away from their store.
You can quote this thread with an “I told you so” when it happens, assuming this site still exists that far in the future.
I also think it's a dangerous game because lots of developers won't support it either, I'm glad Epic made a stand against Apple though.
Until it is possible to do everything in Apple’s sandboxed system, that one can do outside it, they cannot require only Mac App Store only apps. I do not see that happening.
 
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Well, since your brought that up, that is Panic's fault. I am a huge Panic fan and I know I am not the only one who has spent the last 6 years asking them for a mac version of Prompt.

If I recall correctly, they were less than happy with their iOS success (and as I recall, they discontinued Transmit for iOS as a result). If anything, they would have probably been forced to increase their pricing.

Now, on the Mac, people are willing to pay higher prices, but OTOH, the market is also more crowded. A Terminal that lets you SSH into a remote machine comes right with the OS. One that's a bit more powerful, iTerm, has existed for many years and is donationware (i.e., effectively free of charge). Hard for Panic to compete there. Not impossible, but not easy.


They have chosen to spend their time in other ways, like making handheld toys (that I am buying of course). Well as Dr. Malcom said, "Life will find a way". One of the first apps I sideloaded was Prompt. Now, Panic can release a mac version for $20-$50 and get my money or not. but nature abhors a vaccum and prompt is superior to iTerm2 so its going to get used on my m1.
How many people are going to spend $20-50 when the built-in app has most of the features, and iTerm2, which is free, has even more?
 
Yes, definitely. Upgrade pricing can give developers the incentive of "well, guess we'll move this feature to the next major upgrade". OTOH, subscription pricing can give them the incentive of "why add features at all? We have recurring revenues regardless".
There is a third option that a few companies have adopted and I really like: I buy today’s version and if I never pay for it again, I get to keep it. There is an ongoing subscription price, but if I stop using the app (or if I am not interested in upgrades), I stop paying, but I can still run the version I have on the OS for which I bought it. Sometimes the developer will make some upgrades available for free (that is even for people that are not currently subscribed), but that is purely up to them.

The advantage of this model is that if I need an app for a specific project, I do not need to keep paying for it if I want to open that project and make a tweak 3 years later.
At a glance, upgrade pricing seems fairer to the user: the developer adds a feature; the user then decides if they find it worth paying money for. In reality, that isn't how modern apps work; they need to be maintained regardless.
It also makes it more likely that the developer has to support multiple versions. That can get quite expensive (one would still expect bug fixes even if no new features).
It's complicated.
Yes it is. No solution is perfect, they are all just flawed in different ways. :)
I'll also note that subscription pricing tends to be a lot higher, largely because so few people will subscribe: the developer has to offset what they won't make up in volume.
Sometimes it is much lower as they are guaranteed a revenue stream, and understand that if they charge a small enough amount, people will leave the subscription running without worrying about it (“It is only $5 a month, and I might want it”) and sometimes without even realizing it.
 
Well, since your brought that up, that is Panic's fault. I am a huge Panic fan and I know I am not the only one who has spent the last 6 years asking them for a mac version of Prompt.
Could be they have not done it because they did not see enough of a market for a terminal emulator given all the solid free ones (including Terminal), especially given that it would essentially be a rewrite given the differences between UIKit and AppKit. A SwiftUI rewrite would make reasonable to support all three platforms well, but I would expect that to be Prompt 3. :)
They have chosen to spend their time in other ways, like making handheld toys (that I am buying of course).
Probably because they felt these other ways would be more profitable for them. As someone who likes their software, would you rather they spent time on a project on which they ended up losing money or on projects that were profitable for them and enabled them to stay in business (and maybe expand their offerings).
 
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How many people are going to spend $20-50 when the built-in app has most of the features, and iTerm2, which is free, has even more?

Does it really matter how many people buy it? They already have a fully functional mac version so there are no R&D costs. Raise the cost of of the "iOS" version or offer the same app for more money like CulturedCode does with Things. It's too late to offer an Intel version now, so I am happy if they do the mac version m1 forward.
 
I'd recommend you to have a look at http://mosh.org.

Disclaimer: I'm more of a terminal type of a person, so I don't get the need for Prompt at all; in fact, without mosh-support I'd find it absolutely useless. So… hey… maybe you'll like mosh, and maybe not.
I used Prompt on my iPad, but also found it not as valuable since without mosh support it meant that keeping connections alive was a problem. I also use Terminal on my macOS systems with mosh on the portables and without it on the desktops.
 
As someone who likes their software, would you rather they spent time on a project on which they ended up losing money or on projects that were profitable for them and enabled them to stay in business (and maybe expand their offerings).

Sure, and my first advice to stay in business would be to close their handheld division. Their handheld does not hold up well when compared to the cheaper handhelds from Bittboy and others. It will be a novelty item at best and future convention swag at worst.
 
There is a third option that a few companies have adopted and I really like: I buy today’s version and if I never pay for it again, I get to keep it. There is an ongoing subscription price, but if I stop using the app (or if I am not interested in upgrades), I stop paying, but I can still run the version I have on the OS for which I bought it.

Yes, well, that only works if there aren't ongoing maintenance costs (which, given how aggressively Apple deprecates APIs, there are!), or you can subsidize it because enough people keep upgrading.

Sometimes the developer will make some upgrades available for free (that is even for people that are not currently subscribed), but that is purely up to them.

The advantage of this model is that if I need an app for a specific project, I do not need to keep paying for it if I want to open that project and make a tweak 3 years later.

I understand the appeal for the user, but for better or worse, the days of the 1990s where you can mostly rely on the user's system staying the same are over. Forces like security holes mean that users will frequently patch their underlying system, and Apple doesn't want to keep providing patches for old major releases. So, apps have to stay up to date, and while that's typically not a lot of work, it is ongoing maintenance work, even if you as a user never notice it.

It also makes it more likely that the developer has to support multiple versions. That can get quite expensive (one would still expect bug fixes even if no new features).

Yep.

Working with multiple release branches is… hard to wrap your head around. "Oh, this behavior was completely different back then." "Ah, that bug was fixed in a different release, and we never backported it, because that was too much work." Etc. At the end of the day, much simpler to have a base assumption of "everyone has at least version x".

Sometimes it is much lower as they are guaranteed a revenue stream, and understand that if they charge a small enough amount, people will leave the subscription running without worrying about it (“It is only $5 a month, and I might want it”) and sometimes without even realizing it.
Well, $5/mo is quite a bit for a customer once they have, like, a dozen apps.
 
Working with multiple release branches is… hard to wrap your head around. "Oh, this behavior was completely different back then." "Ah, that bug was fixed in a different release, and we never backported it, because that was too much work." Etc. At the end of the day, much simpler to have a base assumption of "everyone has at least version x".
THIS!!

Seriously, I always start out thinking I'm going to use git perfectly; but then suddenly I have to make that one quick fix, and then there's that other thing… and then there's that branch, and this branch, and that quick fix that sort of happened outside of git-land… and before you know it I've "archived" the whole thing to start over from the latest stable version. 😂
 
The entitlement is astounding on this one.

(edit)

Just to expand on this a little: Prompt 2 was released in 2014. That means most people who bought it haven't made Panic a single dime in over six years. Apple transitioning the Mac to ARM was only announced in June 2020, almost six years after Prompt 2's release.

You really want to "review bomb" someone for not foreseeing something that happens half a decade later, and not getting any money for being able to adjust to that new reality?
It's quite amazing that apps that I have never paid for like putty work after all these years isn't it? That an intel app still works on Intel? Prompt is an ARM app. I have an ARM Mac. The app runs on it. The developer got more money from me than most so yes I expect an update.

Everyone saying you bought an iOS app not a Mac App need to get over your greed. I don't have to rebuy software everytime a new Intel processor comes out unless specifically stated as a device license. It's an ARM application. MacOS runs ARM now. Apple advertises run your favorite iPhone apps on Mac M1.

Let me also clarify that these developers can't charge for allowing Mac support because its the same license as the iOS app. Look right on the M1 page. All your iPhone apps redownloaded from your purchase history.

They can block the install. They can also release a completely new app for MacOS. I can also write a negative review for doing as such. Call me what you want it's the developers choice. ;)

Its funny I bought a lifetime license to Shelly this weekend for 3.99. Works on all ARM devices. Guess Prompt 2 will die off. Sorry Dev! Even if Prompt now updates if I take the hours to copy all my sessions over to Shelly zero chance I'm going back.
 
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You realize emulators, virtualization, and translation layers are a thing, right?
Yes.
To turn this around for a sec, software written for x86 macs now automatically runs on M1 Macs, devs didnt plan for that. Is that, to you, a violation of the original developer’s prerogative to choose platforms?
If a developer’s license specified that one was not allowed to run their software on emulated or translated systems, that would be fully within their rights. Given that Rosetta 2 does not translate all software, there are certainly cases where that would make sense (primarily to prevent support costs for a platform where there will be problems that might not be immediately apparent).
What about emulation of old game systems? That’s been consistently held as legal in court, and while pirating game roms is against copyright law backing up a rom you already own (the equivalent of an iOS app you already own) and using it in the emulator is perfectly legal.
This is legal under a specific exemption in the DMCA, not as a general rule and it is not the equivalent of an iOS app you already own, as you do not own any iOS app, just license it.
Tons of software runs on Macs just fine under WINE, are you complaining about that?
I am not complaining about anything. If the rights holders do not care, I certainly do not. I would rather have Mac versions that are actively supported, and I think things like WINE versions, Electron-apps and what we are discussing here all make it less likely we will get really native macOS versions.
The developer doesnt have to actively support using an unsupported config, but there’s no reason to be anti-consumer by deliberately *blocking* using a configuration not supported by the developer. The developer’s rights on how the consumer uses their software is not and shouldnt be all that all powerful
Apple is not blocking applications for which the developer allows access, it is simply enforcing the developers license. Yes, as long as the developer has chosen not to allow this, they have every right to do so, and Apple is doing the right thing enforcing it.
 
Does it really matter how many people buy it? They already have a fully functional mac version so there are no R&D costs. Raise the cost of of the "iOS" version or offer the same app for more money like CulturedCode does with Things. It's too late to offer an Intel version now, so I am happy if they do the mac version m1 forward.
Panic actually cares about user experience. If they have chosen not to have Prompt run on macOS, I presume it is because they do not feel that the user experience meets their standards. If they do a Swift UI port, then supporting it on macOS would be easy.

However, supporting the iOS/iPadOS version on macOS does have costs (support and macOS specific bugs), all of which would be better spent on a Swift UI Prompt 3.

I am curious though what Prompt offers you that matters that Terminal does not? (Seriously curious, as I have been using Terminal since NeXTSTEP 0.4 (and it has gotten much better over the years).
 
It's quite amazing that apps that I have never paid for like putty work after all these years isn't it?
Yup, open source software is cool. Great for you that someone is willing to work for free.
That an intel app still works on Intel? Prompt is an ARM app. I have an ARM Mac. The app runs on it. The developer got more money from me than most so yes I expect an update.
If $15 is more than you have spent on most software, people you are the reason there is so much abandonware on the platform. Good software costs money and maintaining it costs more. That you think your $15 means the developer needs to work for you without bound explains the problem. If a developer does not have enough ongoing sales to support ongoing development, they have only two choices: abandon the product or move to a subscription model.
Its funny I bought a lifetime license to Shelly this weekend for 3.99. Works on all ARM devices. Guess Prompt 2 will die off. Sorry Dev! Even if Prompt now updates if I take the hours to copy all my sessions over to Shelly zero chance I'm going back.
No. You bought a license to Shelly that will be valid as long as the maintainer keeps it up to date. It is no more a lifetime license than your Prompt 2 was a lifetime license. However, given how little you say you spend on software, I am not sure Panic will be very worried that you have moved on from Prompt 2.
 
Yes.

If a developer’s license specified that one was not allowed to run their software on emulated or translated systems, that would be fully within their rights. Given that Rosetta 2 does not translate all software, there are certainly cases where that would make sense (primarily to prevent support costs for a platform where there will be problems that might not be immediately apparent).

This is legal under a specific exemption in the DMCA, not as a general rule and it is not the equivalent of an iOS app you already own, as you do not own any iOS app, just license it.

I am not complaining about anything. If the rights holders do not care, I certainly do not. I would rather have Mac versions that are actively supported, and I think things like WINE versions, Electron-apps and what we are discussing here all make it less likely we will get really native macOS versions.

Apple is not blocking applications for which the developer allows access, it is simply enforcing the developers license. Yes, as long as the developer has chosen not to allow this, they have every right to do so, and Apple is doing the right thing enforcing it.
Using licenses and copyright to restrict consumer use is a problem though. Also, thank you for citing the DMCA but, and I say this as an American, the US isnt the whole world - a lot of countries that dont have as much of Disney et al ramming increasingly restrictive copyright, fair use, and generally consumer hostile repair and use laws through their legislatures have more permissive legal systems.

Just because our current laws allow the kind of consumer restrictions doesnt mean they should. As you said there are carve outs in the DMCA, there should be more (really the law should be scrapped, it was crap when it was new and it’s crap now. It and other laws like it pervert the whole point of copyright and fair use for, mostly large, businesses gain at the cost of the consumer and public domain)

And WINE is the exact same case btw, I’m not talking about actual incorporated-into-the-app use, I’m talking about things like running steam under WINE to play Skyrim on a Mac. Bethesda doesnt support Skyrim on Mac, but you can get it to work pretty decently. Bethesda doesnt actively stop you, but they arent going to support it either, and neither will Valve (I should note that undercuts the whole content piracy argument going on about netflix in this thread too: WINE doesnt enable more piracy from steam than already existed)

Using licensing to restrict consumers from using software they paid for how they wish is a crap practice, it’s not legal everywhere, and I’m surprised to see so many people defend it here.

There is a collision on this thread between people who it seems want a more iOS-like experience on a Mac and those of us who want a more open platform like we were used to until Apple introduced iOS apps into the mix.

Until this point every restriction supplied, like officially signed apps, was customer controllable and had the ability to turn off the restrictions if one wished. That should be true of these applications too. If I paid for the app the developer shouldnt get to dictate that I can’t use it on my mac. I don’t expect them to support it, but the system shouldnt actively work against me. There’s actually an anti-trust argument to be made here in that Apple is engaging in anti-consumer practices and taking on the role of enforcing licensing that they normally wouldnt because they also own the app store. When split off, for ex Steam, there’s no collusion between the OS provider and the App store provider in restricting the use of the computer. Enforcing licensing of third party software and OS level restrictions based on that is a significant step farther into anti-consumer behavior than we’ve typically seen in general computing before. Just because it’s legal in the US doesnt make it good practice or any less toxic to consumers. And again, I say this as a software developer.
 
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I'm surprised at how many here have defended this change. For me being able to bring a suite of useful iOS apps to my M1 Mac Pro really added to its value (and was a reason I bought it) and no developers were losing any money since these were not paid apps.

I did not expect each one to work perfectly, and as a user who is relatively technical and had bothered with sideloading, I did not and would not generate support costs for anybody.

I find this change offensive. And as someone who has been using both Mac and Windows systems for decades, I was so pleased with the M1 Mac that I had a New Year's resolution to sell off my Windows laptops, which have been gathering dust. Apple's reassertion of "control" makes me think I should keep at least one Windows system around ....
 
Apple's blocking of "side loading" is an anti-piracy measure and a security precaution. Isn't that obvious?
If you are a pirate, and love to free load like some digital parasite, Apple's platforms aren't for you - purchase elsewhere, when you have no option but to spend your coin.
I only write apps for Apple's platforms because it's the only platform that I can make a living on because they defend against piracy.
Um, ok. Not sure why you’re launching into an invective and throwing around the term “digital parasite” with someone who said they understand and respect your perspective. Interesting tactic. What was it, again, you said you developed?
 
This logic only applies if it is actually incompatible, and not that it's missing some features. But honestly, that doesn't really matter. Just add a pop-up that says some features may not be supported on macOS when the app launches and let the user decide how they will use the software they paid for. If the developer tries to make the mac version a separate paid app than we as consumers have an ethical obligation to drive the rating as close to 0 as possible to ensure future users don't get screwed over.

This is a team effort, and we need to rally together to be sure that the end users best interest drive policy and law.
If the developer does not own an M1 Mac, they can't test your suggested pop-up to verify that it even works. As a developer, looking at code, no matter how simple, and not seeing problems is not good enough. I want to run it. Many times. In every possible situation. That pop-up code (and the code to detect what type of device the app is running on) would just be extra code added to the app that may or may not work. Extra code just means more opportunities for bugs and crashes to happen. Bugs and crashes mean more 1 star negative reviews. No thanks.

And then what if every feature of the app depends on iPhone specific hardware? Mac users may purchase it only to find an app that does absolutely nothing but display a pop-up telling them the app will do nothing on their Mac. Total lack of features means more 1 star negative reviews. No thanks.

In order to guarantee your pop-up suggestion works on a Mac, the developer needs to own an M1 Mac to test with. If the developer does own an M1 Mac, they can write and test code and cut off any code paths the access hardware not found on the Mac. If they can do that, they can just go ahead and make the app available for the Mac. That just means more places where users can find and purchase the app. I don't think any developer would turn down having more opportunities for downloads for just a little extra work.

I have a better idea. Let the developer decide what kind of product they want to build and which OS and hardware they are willing and able to support. Let Apple come up with a system that protects users by allowing developers to opt out of their iOS apps installing on Mac hardware when said app is not at all compatible or useful on the Mac. Oh wait, that's what we have now isn't it?

To sum up, the "solutions" you keep proposing are only going to create more of the problems you appear to be concerned about.
 
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It's not Apple but the developers that have opted out. All apps were made available on these macs unless the developers specifically requested to opt out.
I was really looking forward to this feature when I ordered the Mac mini ( I hate holding my phone in my home like an idiot so it’s good to text on Snapchat / vero on macOS )

and found out 9 out of 10 developer are being an ASS to deliberately opt out to not us run the app in macOS
 
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Not sure I understand the thinking of people saying they bought a license to an “ARM app” when they clearly bought a license to an iOS app. Considering Android also runs on ARM and there is a windows version for ARM, are these people actually willing to demonstrate their license also should be valid to run the software on those platforms?
Why not instead contact the developer and ask them why they haven’t officially allowed the app to run on the M1? Doesn’t that make more sense?
 
This is lame. This was one of the main appeals of wanting to get an M1 Mac.

“Piracy” lol you guys are such shills.
Same as I thought when I bought it
Instead most of those developers are just bunch of weird *******s to opt out and don’t even let you run the app on macOS

they want me to keep holding my phone like a retardés in my home ?
 
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